Encouraged or dissalusioned? Post trailer feelings

[Tim]

LOL at so many people’s head canons seemingly being dictated by Darrell Sweet rather than RJ.

[DojoToad]

53 minutes ago, Tim said:

LOL at so many people’s head canons seemingly being dictated by Darrell Sweet rather than RJ.

I don’t get it…

[Tim]

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I don’t get it…

 

I'm being a bit glib, but basically a lot of readers (such as the person quoted as thinking that only Seanchan has darker-skinned ethnic groups) seem to assume that the primary characters need to be anglo-celtic in appearance, even though RJ - unlike Sweet's book covers - was actually pretty sparing in specifically describing people that way. In many cases it's probably less to do with the book covers than readers applying a default assumption to the effect that, if a character's skin colour is not specifically described, it's white.

 

If anything (to use on the first few books as examples), the fact that RJ specifically calls out certain characters or groups as being pale or fair (e.g. Elayne or Lanfear or Carlinya or the Cairheinin or (ironically) Egeanin) tends to suggest that where he didn't do so the characters were of darker complexion. I'm aware of nothing in the books inconsistent with the casting of (say) Nynaeve or Egwene or Perrin in this regard.

[550456]

1 hour ago, Tim said:

 

I'm being a bit glib, but basically a lot of readers (such as the person quoted as thinking that only Seanchan has darker-skinned ethnic groups) seem to assume that the primary characters need to be anglo-celtic in appearance, even though RJ - unlike Sweet's book covers - was actually pretty sparing in specifically describing people that way. In many cases it's probably less to do with the book covers than readers applying a default assumption to the effect that, if a character's skin colour is not specifically described, it's white.

 

If anything (to use on the first few books as examples), the fact that RJ specifically calls out certain characters or groups as being pale or fair (e.g. Elayne or Lanfear or Carlinya or the Cairheinin or (ironically) Egeanin) tends to suggest that where he didn't do so the characters were of darker complexion. I'm aware of nothing in the books inconsistent with the casting of (say) Nynaeve or Egwene or Perrin in this regard.

Except he also calls out specific characters for being dark skinned. Tuon is an obvious example, and there are a couple others throughout the series that I remember seeing, although their names escape me. I know one of the thief-catchers was an example of this.

[Tim]

1 hour ago, 550456 said:

Except he also calls out specific characters for being dark skinned. Tuon is an obvious example, and there are a couple others throughout the series that I remember seeing, although their names escape me. I know one of the thief-catchers was an example of this.

 

Sure, but the fact that he calls out specific characters at both ends of the spectrum tends to suggest that there's no consistent norm to racial appearance in Randland - unless perhaps (in respect of skin colour) it's somewhere in the middle between fair-skinned and dark-skinned (i.e. brown). Certainly Juilin (who is from Tear) being specificially described as dark-skinned disproves the suggestion that everyone born east of the Aryth Ocean (and west of Shara) is caucasian. So the idea that characters should be presumed to be white unless specifically described otherwise seems to me to have no textual basis.

[DojoToad]

I remember several references to people from Tear and the Sea Folk being dark-skinned - brown/black.

 

To @Tim's point, I always assumed cover art would be accurate - why wouldn't it be? (naive, I know)

 

 Then, of course, I always project myself into characters until a specific description says otherwise.  Doubt I'm the only one that does that...

[DaddyFinn]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

To @Tim's point, I always assumed cover art would be accurate - why wouldn't it be? (naive, I know)

I realised pretty quickly that the Sweet-covers were nowhere near accurate with few exceptions

[Rose]

7 hours ago, Tim said:

 

Sure, but the fact that he calls out specific characters at both ends of the spectrum tends to suggest that there's no consistent norm to racial appearance in Randland - unless perhaps (in respect of skin colour) it's somewhere in the middle between fair-skinned and dark-skinned (i.e. brown). Certainly Juilin (who is from Tear) being specificially described as dark-skinned disproves the suggestion that everyone born east of the Aryth Ocean (and west of Shara) is caucasian. So the idea that characters should be presumed to be white unless specifically described otherwise seems to me to have no textual basis.

 

It also doesn't seem to matter much, if at all. Nobody's skin color ever has any impact on the story, and while characters may sometimes note it, it seems to have the same weight as noting someone's height or hair or other physical features. There isn't anything inherently special or more important about it. That we as readers see it as important is a reflection of the world we live in, not anything in the books.

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, Rose said:

 

 That we as readers see it as important is a reflection of the world we live in, not anything in the books.

most of us do not see it as important.

that some people see it as important may reflect the world they live in, though.

Edited October 22, 2021 by king of nowhere

[Rose]

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I remember several references to people from Tear and the Sea Folk being dark-skinned - brown/black.

 

Yes the way the seafolk were described, I always pictured them as having very dark brown skin similar to Lupita Nyong'o or Daniel Kaluuya. The fact that RJ singles them out by explicitly describing their skin tone, and often uses them as a point of reference, i.e. describing someone as "as dark as the seafolk" indicates to me that they're probably at the far end of the spectrum when it comes to skin color. That being said, there is a whole range of skin tones that are lighter than this but would still be considered "not white" according to our real-world racial categories.

 

"Light" and "dark" are relative terms that mean next to nothing without context. Compare Josha and Madeleine : Josha is clearly the light-skinned one, and compared to him, Madeleine is dark-skinned. But if you're instead putting Madeleine next to Zoe (like in the opening shot of the teaser), then Madeleine suddenly becomes the lighter-skinned one. And we can keep going. Zoe is light-skinned compared to Clare Perkins, but there are much darker-skinned actors in the cast still, such as Hammed Animashaun and Emmanuel Imani.

 

Out of all of these, the only ones that fit "dark as the seafolk" in my mind are Emmanuel and Hammed. Everyone else is several shades too light. But again, this is my headcanon, and it's all relative, because light and dark don't actually mean anything without context. And "light-skinned" definitely doesn't automatically mean "white". 

 

[Rose]

46 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

most of us do not see it as important.

that some people see it as important may reflect the world they live in, though.

 

Well, I think it's important in our world because we live in a world that is sharply divided along racial lines, in which racism has created deep wounds that are causing a lot of pain to a lot of people. It's pretty normal in this context that anything race-related becomes hypervisible to us even if it's only fiction. Fiction does, after all, have an impact on the real world, since it's in the real world that we consume it and are influenced by it. I just think it's important to remember that distinction and not project our real-world issues and biases onto fictional worlds where they don't apply.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Rose

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, Rose said:

Well, I think it's important in our world because we live in a world that is sharply divided along racial lines, in which racism has created deep wounds that are causing a lot of pain to a lot of people.

And yet, that mostly applies to america. Other countries with a different hystory are not so sharply divided, and they pay much less attention to those topics. It also goes by demographics.

This is what I meant with my (perhaps obscure) comment: most of those complaining about "race lift" are probably americans of political far right views. We can tell that the "world they live in" is permeated with mild racism and bigotry, and it shows in what they care about and the distinctions they make.

I'd be surprised if there were many europeans in that group, as in europe the "racial lines" are not a strong division (though of course we have those kind of people in europe too)

 

And the same goes for those who strongly support the casting of black people: members of minorities that see themselves as downtrodden, human right activists, people with left wing ideas, generally people who feel the impact of the "racial lines" and are especially opposed to them.

 

people who are not touched by the issue won't give a damn about the exact skin color of the actors. Probably because they live in a social context where racism is not an issue, and they only learn of it through the news. Personally, I didn't even notice that the actors were supposed to be black until i started reading forums and i saw all the stink that was being made about it.

 

also, the problem of hypervisibility is strongly related to media attention. there are a number of issues in our society, at some point the media focus on one of them and suddenly it becomes super important, and everyone will notice it, and people will become polarized in opposite views.

And fiction will focus on it, whatever it is. We depict strange cultures and alien civilizations, but they all tend to subscribe to our values.

50 years ago we wrote sci-fi with futuristic settings where everyone was white and the women would stay in the cyber-kitchen. Unless it was a society ruled by women, which was the same thing as the other one, but with genders swapped. And every alien civilization would be a democracy, and they'll probably have a monotheistic religion, unless the book was written in the soviet block, then they'd be communists and atheists. But works written in more ancient times (not that there's many of them) are more likely to have kings instead.

Now we are struggling for equality against racism and sexism, and suddenly we imagine ancient societies full of powerful, emancipated women, with nobody giving a damn about race or religion.

 

And most of us don't even think about that. we just take the culture for granted. which is perhaps the source of disconnect when it doesn't align to our sensibilities.

 

I'd like to end with some poignant conclusions, but really, I am just rambling about the connections between the stories we tell ourselves and our cultures. i find them interesting to notice, though.

Edited October 22, 2021 by king of nowhere

[SinisterDeath]

27 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

50 years ago we wrote sci-fi with futuristic settings where everyone was white and the women would stay in the cyber-kitchen. Unless it was a society ruled by women, which was the same thing as the other one, but with genders swapped. And every alien civilization would be a democracy, and they'll probably have a monotheistic religion, unless the book was written in the soviet block, then they'd be communists and atheists.

50 years ago was 1971.

Asimov & Frank Herbert sci-fi was basically devoid of sentient aliens.
Asimov didn't' really have religion in a lot of his books, same goes for Larry Niven. Herberts, Religion was in the subtext but not really openly talked about... and those  were American authors.

Women staying in the kitchen, wasn't even really a theme for those authors, except maybe the early parts of Robot & Dune.

Fiction prior to the 70s wasn't all like you portray it to be (Mind you, I'm discounting the absolute horde of 120 page short trash novels from that era that have largely been forgotten.)

But I'll definitely say we're lucky any female characters existed in the SFF genre from that era, that had any depth/personality, and weren't just their to act as the protagonist's sex object..

[DaddyFinn]

Soooo a new clip just dropped on Prime Video. It's about Moiraine's search mission and the Dragon Reborn

[templar7]

On 10/22/2021 at 1:53 PM, DaddyFinn said:

Soooo a new clip just dropped on Prime Video. It's about Moiraine's search mission and the Dragon Reborn

Now this is a trailer I can get behind! The best one by far as of yet. I love the epic backdrops and overall feel of this one.

[SingleMort]

On 10/25/2021 at 4:47 AM, templar7 said:

Now this is a trailer I can get behind! The best one by far as of yet. I love the epic backdrops and overall feel of this one.

This trailer was definitely better at conveying some key plot points from the start of WoT and the best so far but I'm still waiting for that big epic trailer that shows people who might never heard of WoT before why they have to watch the show. 

[DojoToad]

7 hours ago, SingleMort said:

This trailer was definitely better at conveying some key plot points from the start of WoT and the best so far but I'm still waiting for that big epic trailer that shows people who might never heard of WoT before why they have to watch the show. 

Coming tomorrow!

[Talya]

I am really looking forward to this, so hope I won’t be disappointed. I have decide to reread the series after many years and enjoying it all again.

I have long learnt that books and their adaptations are never going to be the same, it is impossible. And with films and TV they have also appeal to the masses as well as the fans. And WOT is long and quiet complicated to put on the film, so I will understand changes as long as the mail theme is still there and it is done well.

 

 

[DaddyFinn]

I'm not sure where to post this:

 

 

?

[templar7]

On 10/21/2021 at 8:59 PM, Tim said:

I'm aware of nothing in the books inconsistent with the casting of (say) Nynaeve or Egwene or Perrin in this regard.

Individually I agree with you regarding these these characters. As a whole however It doesn't make sense. Based on the backstory (of the source material) the racial diversity of the two rivers folk is hard to wrap my head around. Not from any written description change or personal prejudice (I couldn't care less what ethnicity the producers cast for the Two Rivers).

What seems strange to me is a little isolated village primarily inhabited by decedents of an ancient and forgotten culture being so distinctly multi-racial.

 

Even if we assume Manetheren to be a racially diverse kingdom before the War of the Shadow, a few thousand years of ancestry in an isolated melting pot would eventually coalesce into a far more uniform cultural appearance.

 

One possible answer to this, which I think would be cool, could be the other handful of villages in the region being more racially distinct ancestral settlements of the survivors of Manetheren.

[Skipp]

1 hour ago, templar7 said:

Individually I agree with you regarding these these characters. As a whole however It doesn't make sense. Based on the backstory (of the source material) the racial diversity of the two rivers folk is hard to wrap my head around. Not from any written description change or personal prejudice (I couldn't care less what ethnicity the producers cast for the Two Rivers).

What seems strange to me is a little isolated village primarily inhabited by decedents of an ancient and forgotten culture being so distinctly multi-racial.

 

Even if we assume Manetheren to be a racially diverse kingdom before the War of the Shadow, a few thousand years of ancestry in an isolated melting pot would eventually coalesce into a far more uniform cultural appearance.

 

One possible answer to this, which I think would be cool, could be the other handful of villages in the region being more racially distinct ancestral settlements of the survivors of Manetheren.

 

This has been address by Daniel Greene and Matt Hatch.

 

Dealing with the decedents of Mantheren directly is from 33:00 - 37:45

 

But really this is just an extremely well done video with tidbits that people often miss on their reads.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Skipp

[templar7]

28 minutes ago, Skipp said:

 

This has been address by Daniel Greene and Matt Hatch.

 

Dealing with the decedents of Mantheren directly is from 33:00 - 37:45

 

But really this is just an extremely well done video with tidbits that people often miss on their reads.

Exactly. Thanks for putting that up, it's a great articulation of how I see it too.

[Rose]

On 10/29/2021 at 6:06 PM, templar7 said:

Even if we assume Manetheren to be a racially diverse kingdom before the War of the Shadow, a few thousand years of ancestry in an isolated melting pot would eventually coalesce into a far more uniform cultural appearance.

 

Not necessarily. I've talked about this before, but genetic diversity doesn't go away even if a population becomes relatively isolated for some time. It's likely that the different genes would gradually become more evenly distributed throughout the population, but that doesn't mean everyone would look the same. You still have a diverse gene pool, so you'll have a wide variety of genes to "pick from" for each individual, which means lots of different possible combinations.

 

Even within a single family, people don't all look the same. You see this pretty clearly when you look at mixed race families in our world. You can have one sibling with light skin and coily hair, and another with darker skin and straighter hair. And yet they both have the same parents, so they're drawing from the same gene pool, but the genetic lottery gave them different combinations of those same genes.

 

Now take that and multiply it by all the different sets of genes that existed in Manetheren before it became isolated. So. Many. Different. Possible. Combinations. I don't actually think we have any reference point in our world to properly understand what people in the Third Age might look like, because the level of intermixing that exists by then (thanks to the Age of Legends and the Breaking) is unheard of in our world. The only perfect casting for anyone in WoT would require using Third Age actors with Third Age genes. But we don't have that, so we can only approximate. The good thing is that it doesn't have any impact on the story, so it doesn't matter that much anyway.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Rose

[SinisterDeath]

Locking this.
New trailers out... and of course yet another thread has been derailed to talk about the "casting controversy".