Encouraged or dissalusioned? Post trailer feelings

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

(2) It will feel different when you have the full context of the episode - Rand seeing the Fade on the quarry road and Padan Fain’s troubling stories. 

right. wasn't thinking of that, it could be intended to echo it

[Elder_Haman]

2 hours ago, 40man said:

Understood the production may be different, I hoped the same for Indy 4, which was worse than the previews. ?

 

As far as the USA, it felt more campy like any USA type series. Acting seemed poor, etc. Leans Seekerish vs GOT.

 

I hope the show itself is better than the glimpses the previews have shown.

I know GoT is the immediate comparison, but let’s step away from that one. How do you feel it compares to “The Witcher” or “Shadow and Bone” or “His Dark Materials “ or “Carnival Row”?

 

There’s miles of room between Legend of the Seeker and GoT and it is a useless comparison to say, in effect, that anything that isn’t GoT is garbage. 

[dssharp]

28 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

How do you feel it compares to “The Witcher” or “Shadow and Bone” or “His Dark Materials “ or “Carnival Row”?

I have not seen “His Dark”, but production values feel equal or greater compared to Carnival Row and a little better than Shadow and Bone.  It will be interesting to compare tone, mature content, acting, overall quality, sets, etc after we see season one, but I suspect it will equal or surpass those others in sets, and overall quality. Not too sure about the world feeling real and lived in, but hoping for the best. You keep favorably mentioning Last Kingdom (which I love) and that world feels very lived in.  
 

I guess I have some questions about director, but his hearts in the right place, he has the budget, the love for the source material, great actors and dedicated consultants, so that’s all I can ask for as of now. The Winespring scene raised the bar for me. 

Edited October 10, 2021 by dssharp

[TheMountain]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

I know GoT is the immediate comparison, but let’s step away from that one. How do you feel it compares to “The Witcher” or “Shadow and Bone” or “His Dark Materials “ or “Carnival Row”?

 

There’s miles of room between Legend of the Seeker and GoT and it is a useless comparison to say, in effect, that anything that isn’t GoT is garbage. 

The creation of The Fold in Shadow and Bone, which was supposed to be an epic climactic event in the show, stood out like a sore thumb when it came to budget and tone. The forces "laying seige" to the "fortress" (merely some stone hallways and a staircase) were like 40 dudes clustered together on a grass field in tights with bows and arrows. I'm not sure if they even fired a single shot. There were no defenders either, only the dark mysterious dude who came out to meet them because his forces were "surrounded and outnumbered." I am praying to the Creator right now that we get better battles in WoT than that.

Edited October 10, 2021 by TheMountain

[TheDreadReader]

32 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

The creation of The Fold in Shadow and Bone, which was supposed to be an epic climactic event in the show, stood out like a sore thumb when it came to budget and tone. The forces "laying seige" to the "fortress" (merely some stone hallways and a staircase) were like 40 dudes clustered together on a grass field in tights with bows and arrows. I'm not sure if they even fired a single shot. There were no defenders either, only the dark mysterious dude who came out to meet them because his forces were "surrounded and outnumbered." I am praying to the Creator right now that we get better battles in WoT than that.

 

That seems more like a budget issue for Shadow and Bone.   How much did they want to spend on that particular set piece vs everything else.   I have no familiarity with the source material for that show so I can't really speak beyond that.

 

Grand battles are cool but they also get really expensive fast. 

 

[40man]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

I know GoT is the immediate comparison, but let’s step away from that one. How do you feel it compares to “The Witcher” or “Shadow and Bone” or “His Dark Materials “ or “Carnival Row”?

 

There’s miles of room between Legend of the Seeker and GoT and it is a useless comparison to say, in effect, that anything that isn’t GoT is garbage. 

There have been a ton of fantasy tv shows, and before GOT, all really sucked and had the cheap USA production/budget vibe. LOTR did a great job for movies.  The reason GOT comes to mind, is it changed the fantasy landscape, and the production team did an AMAZING job of controlling costs to get close to what they wanted on the screen. But LOTR would also be a good litmus test, other than a nearly unlimited budget to get there.

 

If WOT production value falls on the Seeker side of the pendulum, the story and acting will have to be goddamn near perfect or it will be a big fail, if it lands closer to the GOT side, then it will give the show writers and actors the ability to make something great. 

 

The Witcher had a very good story and good acting, which made up for a lot of the cheesy effects and low budget post-production feel. Let's face it, The Witcher budget post-production neutered season 1. I hope the WOT production is much better than The Witcher.

 

But if they can't get the production side right, the story may not matter as a poor production could still be unwatchable, which means we'll see an unfinished story when Amazon cancels it. And that would suck.

 

 

 

My concern is the previews make it seem cheap and campy. I have mixed feelings to see Uta Briesewitz directing the first two episodes, after the poor showing for the Defenders and Iron fist (although the budgets were small in her defense). Ciaran Donnelley is the only other of the four directors selected I feel will do a worthy job of telling the story based on past performances.

 

I really want the show to be great, it seems getting epic fantasy stories "right" is already an uphill battle, and the previews don't instill confidence.

 

And as a fan of the genre, every "failed" (no offense Faile) closes the door a bit more for studios to bet on other great fantasy stories, which would be unfortunate. I want this story to be told in the way RJ deserves.

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

I don’t see any of what you’re talking about in terms of production values. The show looks good to me. Lots of attention to detail. Costumes look good. 
 

If there is a cheesiness to it (which I think some people see in the Lan/Moiraine intro), it doesn’t have to do with production value but with script and editing. 
 

That being said, it feels like a better quality show than all the ones I mentioned already. Whether it lives up to GoT type quality remains to be seen. But it already feels like a cut above Shadow & Bone, Carnival Row and the Witcher - each of which I enjoyed. 
 

[DaddyFinn]

14 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I don’t see any of what you’re talking about in terms of production values. The show looks good to me. Lots of attention to detail. Costumes look good. 

Yeah, it looks crisp, vibrant, BIG, natural

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Grand battles are cool but they also get really expensive fast. 

Very true. Which is why talented writers make them as personal as possible. That’s gonna be the difficulty for WoT. There are lots of big battles that will be hard to personalize. 
 

I hope they put more care into the strategic and tactical considerations so that the battles make sense. 

[DaddyFinn]

Just now, Elder_Haman said:

Very true. Which is why talented writers make them as personal as possible. That’s gonna be the difficulty for WoT. There are lots of big battles that will be hard to personalize. 
 

I hope they put more care into the strategic and tactical considerations so that the battles make sense. 

Emphasis on the chaos and terror of battle. Channelers and shadowspawn would be terrifying to fight against. 

[Elder_Haman]

7 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Emphasis on the chaos and terror of battle. Channelers and shadowspawn would be terrifying to fight against. 

Got to think the battles through like a Seanchan general. 

[DaddyFinn]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

Got to think the battles through like a Seanchan general. 

My memories of them are too vague to understand the reference

[Guest redgiant]

Of course, this show has GoT in its rear-view mirror to completely evaluate what recently worked and drew the most critical/fan/casual praise and what didn't, storylines that worked and didn't vs what the books did in term of deviation and why, overall plot directions, etc.

 

Also, cheesier series and what makes us feel they are such, all of that is know to them.

 

So when people point at GoT (or LOTR for that matter), they do so from the knowledge that they are universally acclaimed (as much as "universally" can mean) for their tonal style, filming innovations, CGI realism/seamless integration and story adherence levels ... or not sometimes. And Rafe should be expected to fully take advantage of knowing all of that. If he is truly going for gritty realism (which I don't think he is despite him claiming he is).

 

I think this should be TV-MA for one thing. Or at the very least TV-14 with a V for violence (I could care less about boobs or nudity or language - at least English language cursing). But violence should abound in certain scenes, and that alone makes me wonder why this isn't in the same ratings camp as GoT.

 

Besides all the deviations so far, my biggest fear that will permeate the entire series is: will the CGI of the Power get better than what little we have seen? B/c so far the only 2 appreciable things I have seen (Morraine whirling around and doing whatever and Alanna stopping the very-fake looking arrows) are very underwhelming for me.

 

It is 2021, and there are countless examples of TV and movie work, not even major productions, that have very realistic and integrated-into-the-scene CGI effects.

 

WAFO.

[550456]

Personally, I feel like the people who are happy just because it's being done at all are doing both themselves and the rest of us a disservice. I fully understand wanting to support such a wonderful series in any way you can, but this, in my opinion, is the wrong way to go about it. If the whole show is as bad as it (to me) looks so far, then all you've accomplished is telling Amazon and others that we're OK with such low quality. It tells them that no effort needs to be made to stick to the source material, because an attempt was made. Hell, in other circumstances, saying "an attempt was made" is another way to say that it was bad. If your only reason to support this show is because it has the Wheel of Time branding on it, then it will only encourage more of the same or worse in the future. It pains me to no end to see what they're doing, and to know that I probably will end up hating it when it comes out, but I can't bring myself to contribute to such things happening even more in the future. I would much rather this version be a failure, and have future show runners be able to learn from its mistakes and give this series the show it deserves.

 

Also, as a reply to the speculation about new accounts and being negative: I can't speak for others, but I made a new account to talk about the show. I didn't have an account before, because the series has been done and over with for years, and there was no point. As long as we're speculating about why new accounts are trending towards negativity: I could just as easily argue that old accounts are people who have been here so long, and are such die-hard fans, that they can't bear to admit that it doesn't look good. 

Edited October 11, 2021 by 550456

[DojoToad]

37 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Very true. Which is why talented writers make them as personal as possible. That’s gonna be the difficulty for WoT. There are lots of big battles that will be hard to personalize. 
 

I hope they put more care into the strategic and tactical considerations so that the battles make sense. 

WoT is all about big battles.  Change Mat's ruby dagger and Thom's harp.  But if we lose the battles, we lose a lot.

[Elder_Haman]

33 minutes ago, 550456 said:

It pains me to no end to see what they're doing,

I support your freedom to state your negative opinion about the show. On the other hand, it doesn’t add much to the discourse to come shout about how it “looks bad” and is “of low quality”. If you really want to “talk about the show”, back your opinions up with something that we can actually talk about. 
 

What looks bad about it? What do you see that’s low quality? Specifically, what changes don’t you like and what don’t you like about them?

 

If you’re not interested in getting into those weeds, then you’re not really interested in talking. 

[Agitel]

At least most of WoT's big battles are in later books (that we see up close), meaning the show has time to establish itself and the studio may by then be willing to invest more into making battles look properly big.

[DaddyFinn]

6 minutes ago, Agitel said:

At least most of WoT's big battles are in later books (that we see up close), meaning the show has time to establish itself and the studio may by then be willing to invest more into making battles look properly big.

Is Falme the first big one?

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Is Falme the first big one?

Tarwin’s Gap

[DaddyFinn]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

Tarwin’s Gap

Yeah, depends how much it will be shown

[JaimAybara]

2 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Yeah, depends how much it will be shown

They could have relatively few cavalry

members left and them seeing the event that unfolds in the distance. 

[550456]

51 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I support your freedom to state your negative opinion about the show. On the other hand, it doesn’t add much to the discourse to come shout about how it “looks bad” and is “of low quality”. If you really want to “talk about the show”, back your opinions up with something that we can actually talk about. 
 

What looks bad about it? What do you see that’s low quality? Specifically, what changes don’t you like and what don’t you like about them?

 

If you’re not interested in getting into those weeds, then you’re not really interested in talking. 

I didn't feel the need to state the specifics of what I didn't like, because I feel like it's already been said by others, and I wouldn't be adding anything new. I felt that my view of the "at least they're doing it at all" mentality had not been shared (that I've seen), so I decided that was worth saying.

 

Since you asked, though, I really liked how someone else put it early on in this thread: (paraphrasing here) "show me the frames where we can see the books coming to life on screen." Personally, I don't feel there have been any. That doesn't mean they won't be there at some point in the show, but one would think that it would be one of the main things they show in the trailer, to appeal to fans of the books. The fact that we've seen little to none of that is worrisome to me. I'll give a few specifics off the top of my head: 

• In one of the teasers, we can see someone jumping off a cliff/rock into a river. That's the first thing shown in that video. Maybe my memory is bad, but I've read the series multiple times, and can't think of what scene in the books that might be. And it's the first thing we see in that video. That's naturally going to give an impression for the rest of it
• The Myrddraal's teeth. Other people have already said it, but I found it ridiculous. The Myrddraal are supposed to be ominous and terrifying. They get their power largely due to fear, and while a monster like that would certainly be frightening, it's not the same. What we saw invokes a horror movie monster that eats people, not a sinister intelligence that creates feelings of dread simply by looking at you. I also don't agree with the argument that such an effect couldn't be done on screen. Lighting and music are well-known ways to create emotional responses in the audience, and a discussion between characters could be had to further clarify what happened. If I recall correctly, such a discussion actually exists in the books already
• Moiraine and Lan. They seemed completely at odds with what their characters are supposed to be. They've been traveling for years looking for the Dragon Reborn, and we know that Moiraine liked to keep a low profile doing so. She, reasonably, wanted to keep their mission secret from Darkfriends, and even after the ta'veren are found she tends not to make her position as Aes Sedai known. But here, we see her and Lan deliberately draw all attention to themselves and announce exactly who they are to everyone. The timing of this bothers me as well, because the way it affects events seems like it will inevitably take away from some of the mystery of her character. Now, do these things drastically affect the overall story? Maybe not, but when our first look at the characters shows them being the opposite of what we know they should be, it is very concerning. 

 

There is, of course, always the argument that it won't be exactly like the books, and many seem to be perfectly happy with any changes at all. I recognize that it can't be exactly like the books, but I disagree with making any more changes than what's strictly necessary. As a fan of the books, the only reason I want to watch this is because it claims to be the story I already love, brought to the screen. So to me, every change feels like a betrayal of that story, especially when the change goes against the original spirit, as well as the letter. As I said, some people are fine with that, and more power to them, but I am not one of them. 

Edited October 11, 2021 by 550456

[DaddyFinn]

4 minutes ago, 550456 said:

The Myrddraal are supposed to be ominous and terrifying.

Not satisfied with this?

 

[550456]

3 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Not satisfied with this?

 

Actually I thought that scene was great. At the very least on the right track. Unfortunately, in my opinion the effect was ruined when they showed it screaming with all its teeth in a later clip.

[DaddyFinn]

4 minutes ago, 550456 said:

Actually I thought that scene was great. At the very least on the right track. Unfortunately, in my opinion the effect was ruined when they showed it screaming with all its teeth in a later clip.

I'm not sure if I would like it more with a normal mouth/teeth and no screeching. It's fine, gives some Pennywise vibes. At least it looks enough like a human with it's mouth closed.

 

To be honest, everyone would shit themselves if they met that face to face in the real world. ?