Would Robert Jordan have really done a better job finishing the books?

[king of nowhere]

So, i've read many fans complaining about small problems in the last three books. and while the general consensus is that sanderson did a good job in front of incredible difficulties, ultimately the only person qualified to finishing wot was robert jordan himself.

However, i considered a few things that are making me doubt that. namely, regarding whether robert jordan himself would have done a good job finishing the wot.

 

it starts from game of thrones. now, i'm not a follower there, so all i hear is third-hand accounts, but JRRM hasn't written any new book in... what, 8 years? and apparently he started many times, but he always scrapped it all. the tv show tried to give it a satisfying ending, and failed miserably.  from what i understand, the problem with JRRM is that he basically wrote himself in a corner, where he can't come up with some satisfying resolutions for some plots while having the characters stay true to their characterization.

 

i'm wondering if jordan had the same problem. in the last few books, his writing pace slowed down. he promised he'd tie all the remaining plots in book 12, but we know that was impossible. he left a lot of notes for finishing the saga, but those notes were largely incomplete in many ways. sure, there were lots of things he had in mind, but he wasn't really sure on how to do them, how to get all the right characters in position for the next big scene. iirc, he left nothing with padan fain.

 

I wonder, did RJ also fell victim of his own kudzu plot? when you create something so intricate, sometimes not even the original author is adequately qualified to finish it. and perhaps if he had lived we'd be all complaining on how the conclusion wasn't fully satisfying...

 

[DojoToad]

I think Sanderson did an incredible job finishing someone else’s work.

 

I also think Jordan would have had a difficult time finishing considering what we had to slog through in the middle books. 
 

We’ll never know. But I for one am quite happy with how almost everything was tied off. 

[Thrasymachus]

Jordan wanted to finish things out with one more massive tome, rather than the three hefty ones we got.  My suspicion, though, is that that drive stemmed more from the knowledge that he was running out of time than out of any confidence that he'd be able to wrap things up in one more book.  Had Jordan not gotten sick at all, I suspect we would have gotten four or five more books in the main series, rather than the three Sanderson gave us.  As well as the Seanchan outrigger series following that.  I also suspect that were Jordan still with us, there would be additional 4th Age outriggers following the Aiel, Nynaeve's ascension to Amrylin Seat, and the White Tower's dealings with the Black Tower, and what Rand's up to in his new Moridin body.

[Sabio]

Besides the Outrigger series RJ said he planned three Prequel books.  One involving Tam and finding Rand another about what lead Moiraine to the Two Rivers.  I forgot what the third was going to be about.

 

Since Lan and Nyn will rebuild Maliker, it's unlikely she would ever be the Amrylin.  With her angry bully style of leadership I think she would be a disaster as Amrylin.

[king of nowhere]

29 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Besides the Outrigger series RJ said he planned three Prequel books.  One involving Tam and finding Rand another about what lead Moiraine to the Two Rivers.  I forgot what the third was going to be about.

i think the third was new spring, which he actually wrote. unless i missed and he was planning more.

Quote

Since Lan and Nyn will rebuild Maliker, it's unlikely she would ever be the Amrylin.  With her angry bully style of leadership I think she would be a disaster as Amrylin.

i fail to see how she would be all that different from other amyrlins ?

[Thrasymachus]

With Egwene gone, and Cadsuane unlikely to make it the next 30 years, let alone the next century, Nynaeve will be the most storied Aes Sedai in existence.  The Aes Sedai who, as an Accepted, helped cleanse the Taint from saidin, who Healed Stilling, who as an Aes Sedai Healed the Madness left from saidin's taint.  Who aided the Dragon Reborn when he finally sealed away the Dark One.  And to cap it all off, who tamed the Uncrowned King of Malkier and married him.  Who will still be among the most powerful Aes Sedai in the One Power.  I think it's a foregone conclusion that the Hall will eventually call her to serve.  Particularly as, following Cadsuane, they would likely want an Amrylin that would be acceptable to the Ashaman, and the only one better than that would be Pevara.  And Nynaeve would be a fine leader.  Certainly a better one than Egwene would have been.

Edited February 23, 2021 by Thrasymachus

[Harldin]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

i think the third was new spring, which he actually wrote. unless i missed and he was planning more.

i fail to see how she would be all that different from other amyrlins ?

I have to agree with @Sabio on this, Nynaeve has spent very little time in the WT and I can’t see that changing anytime soon. Her 1st priority is to Lan, her 2nd to Malkier, her 3rd to healing, her 4th to her friends, the WT and the AS will be well down the list. She will need to produce a Heir or 2 as a priority, remember she is a Queen. 
 

Other then the odd official visit to TV she will be a virtual stranger to most AS, more a legendary figure who drops in occasionally. Nynaeve would never see TV as home unlike nearly all AS, she only spent a few months there as an Accepted. 
 

@Thrasymachus sorry but i cant agree with your supposition that its a foregone conclusion that Nynaeve would be summoned to be Amrylin, there are far to many variables to claim that someone would rise in 30 odd years time. I can’t see how any connection she has to the BT now is going to matter in 30 years, especially compared to the fact that nearly 100 AS are bonded to Ashaman, appointing one of them as the next Amrylin could go a long way to joining the 2 Towers as one. 

Edited February 23, 2021 by Harldin
Reply to another post.

[king of nowhere]

well, if the hall decides to summon someone as next amyrlin, the appointed person cannot refuse. they tried to raise cadsuane, and she had to go in hiding for a decade. So, whether or not nynaeve wants to be amyrlin does not matter.

 

as for whether she would be a good amyrlin, no, she wouldn't, I agree with harldin there. then again, it would be far from the first time the hall picks someone totally unsuitable to the job (cough cough elaida. even egwene and siuan turned out to be competent by accident)

in fact, a common strategy when the hall is deadlocked is to raise a supposedly weak, incompetent amyrlin, so that everyone then can try to manipulate her. I can totally see the hall specifically raising nynaeve in the hope that she will stay away and will let them run things. not very likely, but worse things happened in the hall, as a demonstration that 10-20 years of training from hell does not exhempt people from being dumbasses. especially when politics are involved.

 

anyway, this is going offtopic. the original argument is whether robert jordan actually knew how to untangle the jumbled mess of a plot he created.

[Sabio]

But as with Elayne, would it be better for the WT to have Nyn as Amyrlin or as a Queen of a nation who is openly a Aes Sedai? Being queen also gives her the power to say no thank you I want to raise a family and stay here.  We saw how important raising a family is to Nyn.  I think one thing you want in an Amyrlin is a full time one, not one who is gone most of the time trying to juggle two jobs.  We saw how Nyn deals with leadership in Book 1 and she was yelling, insulting, and hitting people.  Can you imagine what she would be like with the Hall and the nonsense that goes on there?

[The Purple Ajah]

Nynaeve as Amyrlin is an interesting idea. I admit, I haven't given much thought as to who would take over after Cadsuane. I've also seen the idea that future Amyrlins could include Elayne (if she were to abdicate so that her lengthy lifespan didn't mean she kept outliving her royal descendants), or Bode Cauthon (she has the spark, is pretty powerful, and is the sister-in-law of the Empress of Seanchan).

[Thrasymachus]

In thirty-odd years, Lan is going to be a very old man, or dead himself.  His and Nynaeve's children will be grown ups.  She will no doubt have the same thoughts as Elayne, regarding handing over the keys to the kingdom to the next generation.  

 

And I disagree that Nynaeve would make a poor Amrylin.  She grew remarkably as a person and a leader through the series.  I'm reminded of her time practicing the 100 weaves with Beldine (? I think it was Beldine?) where she challenged the Aes Sedai tradition of basing hierarchy on strength in the Power, and how she led efforts in caring for the people of So Harbor and Tear.  She's strong-willed, to be sure.  But she also cares, something which many Aes Sedai have forgotten how to do, and more than any other, she exemplifies what Aes Sedai are meant to be as Servants of All.

 

I also think that, because Cadsuane's reign will be fairly short as Amrylins go, the Hall will still be under the sway of Egwene's legacy and will want an Amrylin that calls back to that legacy.  And they'll want an Amrylin who will last a good long time after having four all in the span of about fifty years, two of which served barely a year each.  I also think that while they will want an Amrylin who is acceptable to the Ashaman, they'll refrain from picking either an Aes Sedai who was forcibly bonded by an Ashaman or who manipulated Ashaman into being bonded by them.  The former because allowing themselves to be bonded demonstrates weakness and is likely to be somewhat resented by the Aes Sedai, and the latter for fear that the Ashaman might resent the manipulation that drove them to be bonded.  Nynaeve is an excellent pick for that reason.  She wasn't involved with any of that.  But she did do three big things of enormous importance to the Ashaman, in helping cleanse saidin, Healing Logain's gentling, and Healing the Madness left behind by the Taint.

[Harldin]

1 hour ago, Thrasymachus said:

In thirty-odd years, Lan is going to be a very old man, or dead himself.  His and Nynaeve's children will be grown ups.  She will no doubt have the same thoughts as Elayne, regarding handing over the keys to the kingdom to the next generation.  

 

And I disagree that Nynaeve would make a poor Amrylin.  She grew remarkably as a person and a leader through the series.  I'm reminded of her time practicing the 100 weaves with Beldine (? I think it was Beldine?) where she challenged the Aes Sedai tradition of basing hierarchy on strength in the Power, and how she led efforts in caring for the people of So Harbor and Tear.  She's strong-willed, to be sure.  But she also cares, something which many Aes Sedai have forgotten how to do, and more than any other, she exemplifies what Aes Sedai are meant to be as Servants of All.

 

I also think that, because Cadsuane's reign will be fairly short as Amrylins go, the Hall will still be under the sway of Egwene's legacy and will want an Amrylin that calls back to that legacy.  And they'll want an Amrylin who will last a good long time after having four all in the span of about fifty years, two of which served barely a year each.  I also think that while they will want an Amrylin who is acceptable to the Ashaman, they'll refrain from picking either an Aes Sedai who was forcibly bonded by an Ashaman or who manipulated Ashaman into being bonded by them.  The former because allowing themselves to be bonded demonstrates weakness and is likely to be somewhat resented by the Aes Sedai, and the latter for fear that the Ashaman might resent the manipulation that drove them to be bonded.  Nynaeve is an excellent pick for that reason.  She wasn't involved with any of that.  But she did do three big things of enormous importance to the Ashaman, in helping cleanse saidin, Healing Logain's gentling, and Healing the Madness left behind by the Taint.

Cadsuane is actually the 9th Amrylin in the last 27 years. 

[The Purple Ajah]

I agree that there's a lot in Nynaeve's favor. However, it doesn't seem like she is the only possible candidate, and it didn't strike me as especially obvious that she'd be Amyrlin when I read the novels. Sadly, we may never know the answer.

 

With respect to the original question, I of course would have liked for Jordan to finish the books. It didn't seem like he was either rushing or slowing down when it came to how much he wrote (or the quality of it); the story simply became far more complex than he was expecting. If he had not been ill, it would have been a different story. But we have to live in a world where he did pass away, and it was completed by Sanderson as Jordan intended.

 

We do know that Seanchan novels would have likely been published, and yes, probably many other tales of the Fourth Age, but sadly it seems out of the question now.

[Asha'man Shar'aman]

3 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

 

 

And I disagree that Nynaeve would make a poor Amrylin.  She grew remarkably as a person and a leader through the series.  I'm reminded of her time practicing the 100 weaves with Beldine (? I think it was Beldine?) where she challenged the Aes Sedai tradition of basing hierarchy on strength in the Power, and how she led efforts in caring for the people of So Harbor and Tear.  She's strong-willed, to be sure.  But she also cares, something which many Aes Sedai have forgotten how to do, and more than any other, she exemplifies what Aes Sedai are meant to be as Servants of All.

 

 

It was actually Daigian. ? That was a good Nynaeve moment. 

[Elder_Haman]

21 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

And I disagree that Nynaeve would make a poor Amrylin.  She grew remarkably as a person and a leader through the series.  I'm reminded of her time practicing the 100 weaves with Beldine (? I think it was Beldine?) where she challenged the Aes Sedai tradition of basing hierarchy on strength in the Power, and how she led efforts in caring for the people of So Harbor and Tear.  She's strong-willed, to be sure.  But she also cares, something which many Aes Sedai have forgotten how to do, and more than any other, she exemplifies what Aes Sedai are meant to be as Servants of All.

Agreed. Nynaeve would be a great Amyrlin. She might be a tough person to be friends with, but she is a born leader whose motives are all about protecting. Cadsuane is going to be a transitional Amyrlin and will probably focus on steering Egwene's reforms and helping to finish repairing the rifts between the Ajahs. And I think she's likely to get bored and step down.

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

Agreed. Nynaeve would be a great Amyrlin. She might be a tough person to be friends with, but she is a born leader whose motives are all about protecting. Cadsuane is going to be a transitional Amyrlin and will probably focus on steering Egwene's reforms and helping to finish repairing the rifts between the Ajahs. And I think she's likely to get bored and step down.

can you step down from amyrlin, though?

i mean, sure, you can certainly be enough of a nuisance to all the ajahs that you are deposed, but if tower law does not allow turning down the amyrlin, i see it unlikely it has provisions for resigning. and getting deposed often entails being stilled, being made a servant, or other kinds of accessory punishments

[Elder_Haman]

8 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

can you step down from amyrlin, though?

i mean, sure, you can certainly be enough of a nuisance to all the ajahs that you are deposed, but if tower law does not allow turning down the amyrlin, i see it unlikely it has provisions for resigning. and getting deposed often entails being stilled, being made a servant, or other kinds of accessory punishments

Cadsuane will groom someone as her replacement until she deems that person ready to take over. Then she'll be a giant pain in the ass about leaving until everyone simply accepts it. 

 

Also, wasn't one of Egwene's reforms the idea that people can now leave the Tower and join the Kin?

Edited February 24, 2021 by Elder_Haman

[Harldin]

After about 10 years of Cadsuane as Amrylin they will probably be more then happy to let her retire. She didn’t want to be Amrylin in the first place and has basically been Shoe Horned In because she can see no alternative, there are very few AS she regards highly at all. She is going to have to be the Amrylin from hell. 
The Tower is in the middle of the greatest crisis in its history, the number of full Sisters is probably at the lowest ever, 500 odd at most. The list of problems needing facing straight away is a very long one

1/ A probable Famine and a huge number of displaced right across the Westlands.

2/ Removing any lingering Black Ajah presence in the Tower and what does she do about those currently Prisoners of the Ogier? She will probably want them back for Stilling and execution, not sure the Ogier will hand them over.

3/ The Seanchan will need to be watched very closely, she will trust Tuon about as far as she could throw her(without channeling) 

4/ They need to get Spies into Shara, find out if there is still any threat there. 

5/ Deal with any Shadowspawn left.

6/ Come to some sort of formal agreement with the BT, Cadsuane is going to have to except Logain as her equal and that will not come easy. I can see Logain using the Ashaman and his AS to help deal with the Famine and returning people to there homes. Not because he is a nice guy but to make the BT more acceptable and liked to the general population. 

7/ Deal with a thousand Novices, many of whom are way over age or are failed ex Novices/Accepted. I don’t believe Cadsuane agrees with Egwene’s decision but I don’t think she will overturn it but she will order the Mistress of Novices to make it very hard for them.

 

And that will be day 1

 

[DojoToad]

Hijack much?