The Forsaken

[Carebear Sedai]

On 12/13/2020 at 2:59 PM, Elder_Haman said:

I could get behind some of this. I feel like Ba'alzamon/Ishamael/Moridin is too central to the core of the series mythology to change him that dramatically. That doesn't mean he can't be improved. He should not face Rand directly until the Stone of Tear, however, having directed the action from afar until that point. (He does not ever have to be Ba'alzamon, just take that role of haunting Rand's dreams).

 

I'm a bit torn on that as well, since the fight at the Stone is rather epic. My other thought was to transfer Moridin's role to Demandred. The only reason I think the show might consider this is because Demandred's relationship with LTT is deeply personal and might be more interesting to explore. 

[Elder_Haman]

6 hours ago, Carebear Sedai said:

I'm a bit torn on that as well, since the fight at the Stone is rather epic. My other thought was to transfer Moridin's role to Demandred. The only reason I think the show might consider this is because Demandred's relationship with LTT is deeply personal and might be more interesting to explore. 

I'll be interested to see whether they make LTT's relationships with all of the Forsaken more explicit on screen. The whole Rand/LTT dynamic is going to be tough to pull off - some lengthy LTT flashbacks could be a way they choose to go. Using those scenes to humanize some of the Forsaken could go a long way to making them less cartoonish and more 3 dimensional as villains. I'm not sure I'd go that route, but it's definitely a choice they could make.  

[mistborn82]

I could see them using flashbacks with some of the forsaken, particularly Demandred, Sammael, Ishamael and of course Lanfear. I don't know about Be'lal because he's basically blink and you're dead before Rand has any memories. As for the others, he didn't know them personally, did he?

[Elder_Haman]

13 minutes ago, mistborn82 said:

I could see them using flashbacks with some of the forsaken, particularly Demandred, Sammael, Ishamael and of course Lanfear. I don't know about Be'lal because he's basically blink and you're dead before Rand has any memories. As for the others, he didn't know them personally, did he?

 

He at least knew of them all during the Age of Legends, no? And they may retcon some of the other backgrounds to bring them closer to LTT's orbit.

[Melodious Androl]

 

On 10/2/2020 at 11:19 AM, Elder_Haman said:

I like the ideas, but I don't think the Gholam-Semirhage idea is good, it takes away a good mat moment and doesn't make that much sense for the continuity, semirhage would have to not kill mat which seems impossible, then get rand after. It does fit where tylin gets tortured before murdered, which makes mat angry. Also I think sammael would need some channeling, because his wards are the reason rand doesn't just bomb the place, and so he couldn't be assasinated. Demandred stays, he's good. But have moghedien and graendal the same person, have moghedien killed while in captivity by moghedien, anyone can kill her, and give more reputation to one of the forsaken. Finally, one idea is to have balthemal ressurected and him and sammael (non channeling version) working together to take over illian. Also add some crazy shadowspawn that aginor makes, he literally made the trollocs, which created myrdaal, so he should show off his skills instead of being accidentally killed by a no-name black ajah.

 

 

[mistborn82]

I've started watching the WOT UP videos as we get closer to more content and am watching his Foresaken analysis and I agree with some. As cool as 13 would be, I think some have to be combined so audiences don't just yawn at the villains. Although he's blink and dead, I don't think Be'lal can be merged because I think you need to show Moraines awesomeness and not have him escape. I like his theory about Demandred but I don't know how many new sharan scenes they'll have time for, not to mention Taim.

He also has a theory I more or less agree with that Mrs. Grinwell is Mesaana. I think she's either her or Lanfear because I don't see why you cast anyone other than extras for someone who appears once, same with her father. Given the plot of Els in the books,  probably not fleshed out, I think Lanfear or Mesaana.

Edited April 6, 2021 by mistborn82

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, BessHB said:

I've recently decided to rewatch the Forsaken series and turned it on as white noise when working on one project. I disagree that it's better to cut the number of Forsaken. It's not like they all appear at the same time or that viewers have to memorize all of them. 

Tell me you're a bot without telling me you're a bot.

[Asha'man Shar'aman]

24 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Tell me you're a bot without telling me you're a bot.

I was confused by the Forsaken show. Never heard of it. Balefire time again?

[SinisterDeath]

10 minutes ago, Asha'man Shar'aman said:

I was confused by the Forsaken show. Never heard of it. Balefire time again?

We'll see.

[Sean]

I mentioned this on the casting thread but I thought Angela Sarafyan (mainly known from Westworld) would make a good Lanfear.

 

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1494168/

[mistborn82]

@SeanI've seen all three seasons of Westworld but I don't remember who Clementine is.

Edited May 13, 2021 by mistborn82

[Elbarad]

Why are we trying to save Jeff Bezos money on hiring actors? Include them all I say, they don't need to be fully fleshed out, especially the ones who are killed early and don't reappear. For the others, we don't need their full back stories. It will be enough to just mention them so we know they are out there, and when their plots come up we'll have been expecting them so people can buy in. 

[Elder_Haman]

38 minutes ago, Elbarad said:

Why are we trying to save Jeff Bezos money on hiring actors? Include them all I say, they don't need to be fully fleshed out, especially the ones who are killed early and don't reappear. For the others, we don't need their full back stories. It will be enough to just mention them so we know they are out there, and when their plots come up we'll have been expecting them so people can buy in. 

It's not so much saving money on actors. More that beefing up some of the Forsaken and losing others will make more compelling television.

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

See, this thread is another demonstration of how it is impossible for the Tv adaptation to be "good" to most super-fans. Half of the people are talking about what is realistic for Tv while half are talking about how important each of the Forsaken is to the symbolism and story-arcs of the books; and both are right. 13 Forsaken are indispensable for WoT, but 13 Forsaken are really unrealistic for Tv. I really wouldn't be surprised if for the show we didn't see any of the Forsaken in S1. No casting has been done for their roles, and as far as I know, they're done with S1 filming. 

 

Best case scenario in my opinion is that we "see" 3 or 4 Forsaken developed and acted out later on - while the rest remain part of the series in the background. Also, I think that makes a lot more sense than combining characters. But if that doesn't happen - I would still think that cutting characters makes more sense than combining them. Even for the show, I think they absolutely have to keep Ishamael and Lanfear - because they are the main counterparts to Rand and Moiraine, but we'll see.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Wolfbrother31

[Beidomon]

On 10/2/2020 at 1:19 PM, Elder_Haman said:

It seems that most are in agreement that there will need to be some major changes made to the Forsaken for purposes of the tv show. I'll take a shot at predicting what they'll do with each.

 

Aginor: I believe Aginor will be at the confrontation at the Eye. He is a good character to use to explain the creation of the shadowspawn and since he is in the text, it makes sense to keep him. I would write him as being clearly in service to Ba'alzamon - furthering the idea that Ba'alzamon = the Dark One.

 

Asmodean: I would keep Asmodean's arc basically the same, though he will die in the confrontation with Rahvin. No balefire resurrection.

 

Balthamel: He's out. Including his incarnation as Aran'gar.

 

Be'lal: Also out. I'm going to give his role to Rahvin. Moiraine will injure, not kill him in the Stone - forcing him to retreat. 

 

Demandred: He's Taim. 

 

Graendal: I'm going to combine her with Moghedien. Yes, they have wildly different personalities. But for purposes of the tv show, you can combine the two story arcs. She can still capture and torture Nynaeve. She can still be captured and still escape. She can then be subjected to the mind trap. She can then start messing around in Arad Doman. She will die at Natrin's Barrow, but can be resurrected, named Hessalam, and given to Slayer for the last battle. 

 

Ishamael: His arc remains basically untouched. (Although, I remove him from the Eye altogether. Rand can believe he's killed the Dark One when he kills Aginor)

 

Lanfear: She stays. She never becomes Cyndane though. She's just rescued by the Dark One and remains Lanfear. Her arc - including her final fate - are otherwise unchanged.

 

Mesaana: I'm combining her with Alviarin. Egwene reveals her as a darkfriend after Verin dies, not realizing that she's actually Mesaana. Alviarin escapes (leaving the other black sisters to their fates) then dies in the confrontation with Egwene in T'a'R. 

 

Moghedien: See Graendal.

 

Rahvin: He stays in the same role. I might eliminate the time bending via balefire at the end of their confrontation. (I dislike too many resurrections, they lower the stakes)

 

Sammael: His plot stays in. But he's no longer one of the Forsaken. He's just a friend of the dark with a ton of political and military power.

 

Semirhage: She stays, but amplified. Since she is so good with the Mask of Mirrors, she can become a shapeshifting villain. It might be fun to combine her with the gholam. As fun as Mat's final encounter with the gholam is, it isn't strictly necessary. 

 

Anyway, that's just a few thoughts. Interested to hear what the rest of y'all think.

 

 

Could do a lot worse than these suggestions. I might cut it down a bit further but all this is really pretty good. 

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

If @Elder haman and @Thrasymachus were consultants on the Tv show -- I'd A) be a lot more confident that the show would be good.  But B) the show would never get finished - creative differences! I definitely would NOT combine Graendal and Mo though. Either keep them both or lose them both. But the rest sounds pretty good.

Edited June 8, 2021 by Wolfbrother31