A Question on Ilyena Therin Moerelle

[Maedelin]

I went looking in the forums, and the search bar is not cooperating, so I will ask it here.  Could Ilyena channel?  Was it ever written in RJ's notes?  I cannot find anything for or against, but I was really curious about that.

[Dagon Thyne]

Some people have theorized that she was a channelor by the fact that she has three names, which is apparently reserved for channelors.  

 

However, I think her name was Ilyena Moerelle, and LTT's original name was simply Lews Therrin, with Therrin being his family name and she took his family name when they married.  Much like the full name of a married women under most western cultures is her Husband's Surname, followed by her own surname with a hyphen between them.  

Under American name system her name would have been Ilyena Moerella-Therin.   

Edited November 16, 2019 by Dagon Thyne

[Sabio]

My guess is she couldn't, the companion says she was born Ilyena Moerelle Dalisar.  So she was born with three names.  When she got married she became Ilyena Therin Moerelle.

 

The third name was given for deeds. important research, great achievements etc.  Mesanna went over to the shadow because of her failure to earn a third name.  Her goal in life was to do research at the Collam Daan, and her failure to achieve that was a key part of her going to the shadow.  Moghi was another who never earned a third name.  So it was a mostly a thing of status.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Sabio

[jibJAB]

Interesting, so would that mean that if you can be born with three names, you could inherit status?

[Maedelin]

4 hours ago, jibJAB said:

Interesting, so would that mean that if you can be born with three names, you could inherit status?

Hey, that's a good question too! 

[wotfan4472]

Maybe it is because Ilyena's mother or father, or both earned the third name by hard work, and their daughter was born and grew up with it due to the extent of the status they earned??

[Elendir]

I cannot imagine that in egalitarian society like in the "ideal" society of the Age of Legends, someone can born with 3 names and others had to deserv it .
Also, the three names were (or will be) not reserved exclusively for chanelers. Chanelers was a big part of society and we don't know much about the rest.

I've always thought She could chanel.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Elendir

[Sabio]

That's what it seems like to me is if you're born into a family with 3 names you inherit the three names. 

 

Sadly the companion doesn't say if Ilyena could channel or if she was an Aes Sedai.

[jibJAB]

Yeah, there must've been some weird kind of tension between having an egalitarian society and having channelers/non-channelers. Maybe that's where ter'angreal came in to equalize things a bit?

[Sabio]

Rand admitted, I think in the last book, that he now understands their society wasn't as perfect as they thought it was.  Those in power convinced themselves that everything was perfect, when in truth there was a lot of inequality.

Edited November 24, 2019 by Sabio

[jibJAB]

Ohh right, good point, good point.

[Elendir]

The absolutely egalitarian society is just an ideal. It is more a definition against authoritarianism. The equality as amended by law/rules is however posible.
It is diferent betwen "de jure" and "de facto". Society can be egalitarian by law and injustice in real at same time.

 

I think, that there is still a big difference between the attitude of the Hall of Servants and the White Tower to ordinary people.

[Maedelin]

Anyone could earn a third name, as long as it was through great means.  Did Harriet ever address this?  Or Brandon at a Q&A or AMA?

[Jsbrads2]

I would presume that she was not only an Aes Sedai, but one of the most powerful. There definitely seemed to a class system, even among the Aes Sedai in LTT’s day. “Little sister” Rand said to Cadsuane, even the women voting as a bloc to not help LTT. Servants of all, but everything in society used the one power, giving the Aes Sedai a disproportionate level of control over society implies a Caste type system. We know powerful channelers come from channeler families, with all the powerful channelers that lived during the AOL, so not truly egalitarian in marriages. Also, had there been more inter marriages, the channeling wouldn’t be so rare during Rand’s time even with the culling of humanity by Aes Sedai not marrying, because everyone would have an Aes Sedai great grandmother or great grandfather. 

[Kalessin]

On 11/17/2019 at 11:00 AM, Sabio said:

My guess is she couldn't, the companion says she was born Ilyena Moerelle Dalisar.  So she was born with three names.  When she got married she became Ilyena Therin Moerelle.

 

The third name was given for deeds. important research, great achievements etc.  Mesanna went over to the shadow because of her failure to earn a third name.  Her goal in life was to do research at the Collam Daan, and her failure to achieve that was a key part of her going to the shadow.  Moghi was another who never earned a third name.  So it was a mostly a thing of status.

 

I've just consulted my copy of "The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time", page 79, which is the only place where she is mentioned, and it merely gives her three names - Ilyena Moerelle Dalisar - so the conclusion I came to, was that she had earned her third name the way her husband, Lews Therin Telamon, earned his - through hard work and honourable service.

 

I'm more interested in why she chose to add Lews Therin's name to her own. The fragments of Age of Legend life we see, chiefly through Rand's eyes, do not give the impression that women had to take their husband's last name. Did anyone ask Robert Jordan that?

[Maedelin]

On 9/5/2020 at 7:10 AM, Kalessin said:

 

I've just consulted my copy of "The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time", page 79, which is the only place where she is mentioned, and it merely gives her three names - Ilyena Moerelle Dalisar - so the conclusion I came to, was that she had earned her third name the way her husband, Lews Therin Telamon, earned his - through hard work and honourable service.

 

I'm more interested in why she chose to add Lews Therin's name to her own. The fragments of Age of Legend life we see, chiefly through Rand's eyes, do not give the impression that women had to take their husband's last name. Did anyone ask Robert Jordan that?

Another good question!  So far we've asked:

1. Can Ilyena channel?

2. Why was she born with 3 names?

• Are names handed down throughout generations?
• How long do those names last?
• Can a name be revoked?

 

3. Do only women take last names when marrying?  Or is it based on who has the most clout?

[wotfan4472]

The Age Of Legends seems to run like how Lord vs knighted titles run in the UK, and the other Realms. There, the title of Lord and Lady is passed down by birthright, but the Sir and Dame are earned by accomplishment, and at a very high standard. 

Ilyena being born with the third name, but Mesaana not earning one, must mean that it is an amalgamation between the two titles.

That, as time went on, it may have been beneficial for society at the time to allow the third name to be passed down by birth, or marriage, while requiring the accomplishment when it is first earned. It may have been a failed attempt to stop animosity between people that have the name, and people that do not.

This may even have been a common reason for both people to turn to the Shadow after the Bore was opened and also to try freeing the Dark One totally.

It would be a powerful motivation for plenty of people.

Edited September 9, 2020 by wotfan4472

[Orderofolde]

On 11/23/2019 at 9:22 PM, jibJAB said:

Yeah, there must've been some weird kind of tension between having an egalitarian society and having channelers/non-channelers. Maybe that's where ter'angreal came in to equalize things a bit?

The Ter'angreal for non-channelers we see from the scraps in the tower and what the girls come across shows that they could be used to operate machines (iirc some kind of harvester) and many, many other kinds to make things easier for the non-channelers.  I think that they were tied into the lay lines that powered them with the power.  

 

As far as the names go and whether Ms. Sunhair could channel or not, I don't remember anything mentioned aside from the color of her hair and how she was the love of LTT's life and the misery he was in for killing her in his madness.  There is a POV from one of the male forsaken who believe LTT stole her from him or took her off the market right before he was about to move in.  It doesn't say she was a channeler, but to move in those high society circles that she did to gain the attention of LTT after Lanfear, and the other male forsaken she had to be very important and very prominent.