What would you want to tell Rafe Judkins about making the show?

[johnnysd]

5 minutes ago, Harldin said:

This keeps getting back to adaptation issues, its easy for the Author to type out a scene, add as many new Characters as they like, but far harder for a Showrunner to add that scene and those characters to a TV show. There are 6 important characters who have Cameos in Caemlyn in EOTW but only 2 do anything of real importance to the overall story, Elayne meeting Rand and Elaida’s foretelling. 
 

Yes i would love to see the whole Palace scene but i am also realistic that, this could result in a number of different actors playing those roles down the line. 

 

I suspect we lose the palace scene and everything is combined with a public gentling of Logain, but there is such charm and then threat to the whole palace sequence it would play really well on TV so will be a shame if we lose it. Though I will say with every casting it seems we are losing less and less 

[Thrasymachus]

We also meet Loial and Basel Gill in Caemlyn, both of which are confirmed cast.  It'll be interesting to see what and how they cut, but it seems a lot of things readers expect could be cut, won't be.  Which leaves us with a question of what will be.

[mistborn82]

I wonder if earlier books are more of a question of rearranging and the later seasons will have the big cuts. There's also the question of the physical Eye of the World and how much of that sequence is included because it's the book one ending for a trilogy and doesn't make sense.

[johnnysd]

Just now, mistborn82 said:

I wonder if earlier books are more of a question of rearranging and the later seasons will have the big cuts. There's also the question of the physical Eye of the World and how much of that sequence is included because it's the book one ending for a trilogy and doesn't make sense.

 

What do you mean? It's one of the best and most important parts of any of the books. I from what I have heard about the sets I think it is one of the safest things to remain especially since Tarwins Gap is one of the things Rafe most wanted to film, and it's literally when Rand becomes the Dragon Born, they get the horn and the banner and meet the Green Man.  The series will go past it in the first season but it will definitely be there.

[Harldin]

25 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

We also meet Loial and Basel Gill in Caemlyn, both of which are confirmed cast.  It'll be interesting to see what and how they cut, but it seems a lot of things readers expect could be cut, won't be.  Which leaves us with a question of what will be.

 

2 hours ago, johnnysd said:

 

I suspect we lose the palace scene and everything is combined with a public gentling of Logain, but there is such charm and then threat to the whole palace sequence it would play really well on TV so will be a shame if we lose it. Though I will say with every casting it seems we are losing less and less 

The big one in the Palace is Rand meets Elayne, if you don’t do it there, then where do you do it? They don’t meet again until Falme and then Tear. This is a hard one for Rafe, he needs to do Rand meeting with Elayne and Elaida, but he may not want to commit to having to cast all 6 Palace Cast members this early. 

[Thrasymachus]

If they compress books 1 and 2 into the first season, (or at least the first bit of book 2) then they could have Elayne and Elaida be used more often in the first season.  Rand meeting Elayne is important, but it's not like she drops out of the story entirely after that.  She hooks up with Egwene and Nynaeve as soon as we see them in Tar Valon.

 

I just don't see how they're gonna manage to compress the first book enough to do that, though, particularly with Valda, Bornhald and Mrs Grinwell also as confirmed cast.  In fact, I don't know why Valda is already cast, unless he's taking the place of Byar.  Even if they cut Niall, which would be a shame, he's not actually important until book three/four.

 

It seems like we're gonna have a serious mash-up and reordering of a lot of disparate plots from what's in the books.

[Carebear Sedai]

3 hours ago, Harldin said:

 

The big one in the Palace is Rand meets Elayne, if you don’t do it there, then where do you do it? They don’t meet again until Falme and then Tear. This is a hard one for Rafe, he needs to do Rand meeting with Elayne and Elaida, but he may not want to commit to having to cast all 6 Palace Cast members this early. 

 

I don't expect they will cut any major scenes outright. I'm sure the royal palace at Caemlyn will feature, but I doubt we'll see Galad or Gawyn, with the possible exclusion of Gareth Bryne and Tallanvor. They only need to cast Elayne, Elaida and Morgase. 

 

4 hours ago, johnnysd said:

 

What do you mean? It's one of the best and most important parts of any of the books. I from what I have heard about the sets I think it is one of the safest things to remain especially since Tarwins Gap is one of the things Rafe most wanted to film, and it's literally when Rand becomes the Dragon Born, they get the horn and the banner and meet the Green Man.  The series will go past it in the first season but it will definitely be there.

 

It's also one of the most confusing aspects of the books and something that's never explained. Why did they need to go to the Eye at all? Moiraine acted like it will be the end of the world if they don't, but much of what happens isn't in line with later canon. It's never explained what the purpose of the Eye was either, other than being a storage. But the body count was disproportionate for that purpose... In short, it's a messy bit of plot. 

[Harldin]

2 hours ago, Carebear Sedai said:

 

I don't expect they will cut any major scenes outright. I'm sure the royal palace at Caemlyn will feature, but I doubt we'll see Galad or Gawyn, with the possible exclusion of Gareth Bryne and Tallanvor. They only need to cast Elayne, Elaida and Morgase. 

 

 

It's also one of the most confusing aspects of the books and something that's never explained. Why did they need to go to the Eye at all? Moiraine acted like it will be the end of the world if they don't, but much of what happens isn't in line with later canon. It's never explained what the purpose of the Eye was either, other than being a storage. But the body count was disproportionate for that purpose... In short, it's a messy bit of plot. 

I’m not confused, its the home of the last of the Nym, Someshtra as well as a pool of untainted Saidin, the Dragon Banner and a certain Musical Instrument that later proves fairly crucial. Rand uses the Saidin to destroy the Trolloc Army at Tarwins Gap, not to forget that Aginor and Belthamel turned up as well and both the Banner and the Horn would have fallen into the Dark Ones Hands had they not been killed.

I would say the events at the Eye were fairly important myself and fairly straight forward. Morraine had been told that the Dark One would blind the Eye of the World and thats why they went. 

Edited July 3, 2020 by Harldin

[Thrasymachus]

They went because of ta'veren.  Moiraine very nearly explicitly says so.  Both Perrin and Loial bring independent news of a threat to the Eye, and the boys' dreams including threats regarding the Eye all cause Moiraine to think the Pattern is leading them there, so off they go.  The Eye of the World doesn't appear in the Prophecies of the Dragon (rather like the Horn of Valerie) and nobody knows why such a vast amount of pure saidin was kept there, as safeguarding the Dragon's banner, a seal of the Dark One's prison and the Horn seems like overkill.  And there's still uncertainty as to whether it was used for the purpose it was intended. 

 

Of all the events of the books, the Eye is the oddest.  Almost all the world-building done there ends up not being all that relevant later on.  If it weren't for the fact that the diversion keeps Rand out of Tar Valon until the Pattern is ready for him to face the Amrylin's anger, and that the aftermath of it sets up the next book which is important, I would almost agree that the Eye and Someshta could be cut entirely.  It only confirms for Moiraine and the audience that Rand is the Dragon Reborn, while Rand takes two more books to really accept it.

[mistborn82]

@johnnysdI mean that the power is just used, no weaves or anything, the sequence at the Eye screams because plot. Yes they meet the WOT version of Tom Bombadil, get the horn, a seal and the banner but the rest of it is pointless. Aginor and Balthamel are put in simply to be killed, Aginor detects Mats dagger but that's never explained and no other Forsaken ever comes after him, the creator talks to Rand which never happens again. If that whole sequence remains, it needs fixing.

[johnnysd]

25 minutes ago, mistborn82 said:

@johnnysdI mean that the power is just used, no weaves or anything, the sequence at the Eye screams because plot. Yes they meet the WOT version of Tom Bombadil, get the horn, a seal and the banner but the rest of it is pointless. Aginor and Balthamel are put in simply to be killed, Aginor detects Mats dagger but that's never explained and no other Forsaken ever comes after him, the creator talks to Rand which never happens again. If that whole sequence remains, it needs fixing.

 

Well Aginor and Balthamel (sp?) are sent by the Dark One to use the pool of Saidin to break him free of his prison. The pool was created so that pure Saidin could be channeled to mend the DOs prison (enought to break it as well) but obviously it is used up with the fight at Tarwin's gap and Aginor and Rand fighting over it until Aginor burns himself out literally. 

 

Later we learn that Balazammon is actually Ishameal, and he actually wants to stop the DO from blinding the eye of the world because he believes that he can either rule as Naeblis or if not be the one to kill him at the Last Battle. This is why Ishamael and Moridin actually help Rand a few times.

 

So by going there Rand keeps the Dark One locked up for a good deal longer completely destroys the Dark Ones army, learns that Saidin CAN be cleansed, which is obviously super important for later and also shows that Rand is connected to the land as he causes the blight to recede. And if I remember correctly sort of overfixes the weather.

 

I never knew people had issues with The Eye of the World I always thought it was incredibly logical  exiting and satisfying. It is the true reveal of the Dragon Reborn though Rand sort of continues to deny it for 2 more books.

 

By the way, there WERE weaves Rand just at the time had no idea what he was doing and Jordan still wasn't 100% set in his description of saidar and saidin. 

 

Done well, it could be REALLY surprising to people when Rand starts channeling.

[Thrasymachus]

Moiraine is explicit that no one knows why the Eye was created.  If it was to re-seal the Dark One's prison, why hide a seal in the bottom of it, where it wouldn't be revealed until after it was used up?  And she later questions whether it was intended for the use to which it was put, or for some other reason.

 

The EotW is a good introduction to the characters, but it's almost wholly disconnected from the larger plot.  The Dark One's army at Tarwin's Gap exists only to raise the stakes for Moiraine and Lan, and to be destroyed by Rand.  Ishamael didn't want Rand to channel it, he was freaking out when Rand was channelling it.  And he certainly didn't want to be the one to kill the Dark One.  He wanted utter annihilation.

[mistborn82]

Eye of the World was written as book 1 of a trilogy before RJ realized his story was much bigger. As a fan, I like EotW but I know it doesn't really work, I accept that. As @Thrasymachussays, a good intro but in some ways Great Hunt is the real beginning. One of the biggest problems is you can't have Ishamael die twice before getting killed for good the third time.

Perrin meets Elyas but barely advances until TOM.

Perrin and Egwene almost understand the Old Tongue but goes nowhere.

Mins viewings are all over the place.

The future very powerful Amarlyn has disappearing sisters.

Finally, my issues with the whole Blight sequence stand.

That's a longwinded way of saying you won't translate EotW onto the screen without major changes. It won't be like Fellowship of the Ring where they mostly stuck to the book except for Tom Bombadil, yes I know why they cut him and yes it hurts. Points is, don't get to attached to sequences in EotW and GH, especially as a few sequences only work because of the innermonologues.

[johnnysd]

1 hour ago, mistborn82 said:

Eye of the World was written as book 1 of a trilogy before RJ realized his story was much bigger. As a fan, I like EotW but I know it doesn't really work, I accept that. As @Thrasymachussays, a good intro but in some ways Great Hunt is the real beginning. One of the biggest problems is you can't have Ishamael die twice before getting killed for good the third time.

Perrin meets Elyas but barely advances until TOM.

Perrin and Egwene almost understand the Old Tongue but goes nowhere.

Mins viewings are all over the place.

The future very powerful Amarlyn has disappearing sisters.

Finally, my issues with the whole Blight sequence stand.

That's a longwinded way of saying you won't translate EotW onto the screen without major changes. It won't be like Fellowship of the Ring where they mostly stuck to the book except for Tom Bombadil, yes I know why they cut him and yes it hurts. Points is, don't get to attached to sequences in EotW and GH, especially as a few sequences only work because of the innermonologues.

 

Well you are entitled to your opinion but I don't really agree with a word. Funny thing is I think that the first 3 books will be very close to intact but starting with the 4th it will start having major changes. And by book 8 or so it wont follow the books at all except some major events like the cleansing. The vast majority of fans I believe how no issue with the first book

[mistborn82]

My issue isn't so much with the book, like I said, it's that large sequences don't have an impact on the larger story. You can get away with that in books, especially when you're famous enough no one can tell you no but it won't translate to the screen. E.g. Perrin, his development is basically shoved into TOM, with a few moments in other books and that won't work on TV. If you want it to go a full 8, probably, seasons, there will be major changes, especially since the necessary changes in the later seasons will need to be set up from the beginning. Again, I like the book but knowing the corners cut for the ending of the series(AMOL) I know EotW needs Major changes for it to translate on to the screen.

I guess in the end though, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Elder_Haman]

On 7/3/2020 at 4:41 PM, Thrasymachus said:

Moiraine is explicit that no one knows why the Eye was created.  If it was to re-seal the Dark One's prison, why hide a seal in the bottom of it, where it wouldn't be revealed until after it was used up?  And she later questions whether it was intended for the use to which it was put, or for some other reason.

 

The EotW is a good introduction to the characters, but it's almost wholly disconnected from the larger plot.  The Dark One's army at Tarwin's Gap exists only to raise the stakes for Moiraine and Lan, and to be destroyed by Rand.  Ishamael didn't want Rand to channel it, he was freaking out when Rand was channelling it.  And he certainly didn't want to be the one to kill the Dark One.  He wanted utter annihilation.

 

I agree with the notion that you have to change the whole plot point regarding the Eye. For the tv series, the fact that Rand can channel should be a big enough reveal. Tarwin's Gap doesn't really have to happen.

 

I would plot it slightly differently for tv:

Rather than going to the Eye on the basis of dreams, rumors and Moiraine's intuition what if...

 

Moiraine second guesses her plan to take everyone to Tar Valon after Shadar Logoth (because of Logain maybe). She really wants more clarity and would like to take the boys to see a girl she knows in Fal Dara who sees visions. When she finds Loial in Camelyn, she remembers the Ways and talks him into using them.

 

Only the Waygate is located barely inside the blight and they have to fight their way out to get to Fal Dara. During that journey, they stumble on the Eye (because Ta'veren). There's a fight at the Eye. Rand channels consciously. They find the dragon banner, seal and horn.

 

Then they ride into Fal Dara. Ah, safe at last. We meet Min. We meet Agelmar. They capture Fain. The season ends with Siuan arriving. Everyone is terrified Rand will be gentled. And Fain escapes with the Horn.

 

 

[Thrasymachus]

Moiraine's sudden change of direction, and the reasons for it, are one of the few plot elements that actually do become more relevant in the rest of the series.  They have to implement ta'veren and demonstrate (some of) its effects on others.  I doubt we're going to see a wholesale re-write of the Eye of the World, and I would be dubious if they tried to change too much.

 

At the same time, in the books, the Eye serves no real purpose to set up much of the rest of the plot.  It's not part of the Prophecies, and nobody had any clue about it's connection to the Dragon or its role in safeguarding certain necessary relics that would be needed for Tarmon Gaidon.  All they really need to do is add to the Prophecies with some vague interpretable wording connecting the Eye to the Dragon and much of its disconnect is fixed.

[mistborn82]

@Elder_HamanI like that because now it gives them a reason for Fal Dara. Maybe the waygate exits into Malkier and they see the ruined seven towers, to give weight to Lan.

[Elder_Haman]

18 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

Moiraine's sudden change of direction, and the reasons for it, are one of the few plot elements that actually do become more relevant in the rest of the series. 

 

I get what you're saying. But you can keep Moiraine's change of direction reasons as part of the story without making it the whole reason. My objections are more to how clunky it feels that the only reason to go to Fal Dara is because its on the way to somewhere that they don't know exactly how to get to. 

 

My change gives them a reason to specifically go to Fal Dara. Moiraine can remain confident that they will find the eye, be aware of its significance, etc. and just be confident that they will find it as they battle through the blight toward Fal Dara.

 

I'm also trying to get Min into the story and have an onscreen relationship with Rand that feels real. With a few tweaks, Min can replace Hurin which will allow her and Rand to bond and add some drama to the Selene/portal stone part...

[Guest clarancebulford]

my only wish to him is to stick to the source as much as possible!

[Thrasymachus]

I disagree that they need to move Rand's relationship with Min forward, earlier on.  Min's relationship with Rand is, by the end of the series, the most well developed and natural of any of the Three.  She spends an order of magnitude more time with him than Aviendha or especially Elayne.

 

Thematically, the Eye of the World introduces the characters and sets the stage for their future development.  But none of the characters, barring Nynaeve, and her only barely, undergo any real growth or change.  Things happen to them, or are revealed about them, but none of them have a chance to do anything about them yet, or use them to grow as people.  Perrin gets revealed to be a wolf brother.  Mat steals the ruby-hilted dagger, which gives him holes in his memory to be filled in later by the Eelfinn.  And Rand is ultimately revealed to be a male channeller, and to the audience at least, the Dragon Reborn.  But none of their characters really have a chance to deal with those events and revelations or grow from any of those things happening to them.  The boys, at the end of tEotW, are the same hay-haired farmboys they were at the beginning, just with some new problems to deal with.  The real character growth, and the real story of team Dragon Reborn, doesn't begin until The Great Hunt.  For Mat, it doesn't even really begin until The Dragon Reborn.

 

And that's fine.  TEotW is effectively a giant prologue to the whole story, unsurprising out of an author who loves his lengthy prologues.  It introduces us to the core of who these characters are, so we can get used to them and care about the development that comes later.  Adding in a new and developing romance during that period muddies those waters.  Now, Rand is changing and growing as a person, before we even got a chance to know who he really is yet.

 

I think the early stages of Min's relationship with Rand as it is in the books is fine.  Rand's attracted to her, but she scares the hell out of him and basically chases him off with a demonstration of her unique ability.  I reckon the only change that needs to be made there is that Min's viewing that she will fall in love with Rand, and that they will become lovers needs to be made more explicit; make us privy to her whispered conversations with Moiraine or something.  And that the infallibility of Min's viewings need to be made more explicit earlier on as well.  They could even throw in Moiraine and Thom's future marriage as a somewhat vague viewing, so it seems a little less out-of-the-blue later on. 

 

Then Min goes to track him down, as she understands better than anyone that she doesn't really have a choice.  When she finally finds him, she spends weeks helping nurse him back to health, and begins to fall for him.  Then, Rand runs off and she has to go alert the Aes Sedai in Tar Valon, as she's really the only one that can.  When she finally meets up with him again, after the Waste arc, she never really leaves his side again.

 

Save the building up of romantic relationships for Rand for season 3 or 4, depending on how much they cut or mash up.  If they can make the Fall of the Stone a midseason climax and start that season with Rand in the mountains, and end it with the capture of Asmodean, they can get the beginnings of the relationships with all Three in one season.  Which would make things much more thematically consistent, and help put each of the Three on more even ground.  Min gets some time with him early on, then Elayne gets her time with him in Tear, and finally Aviendha gets to tear into him towards the end. 

 

While I understand that some fans have their preferred lover for Rand, and would rather drop or minimize the romance with the other two, and enhance the romance with their preferred choice, I think that's a mistake.  If anything, the Three need to be given more equal prominence; some way should be contrived for Elayne to spend more time with Rand, probably later in the series, and Rand needs to be more conflicted and confused about three women who all love him romantically, and who he loves in return.  The Three play into an important archetype of the story as a foundation of myth and legend: they represent the Tri-partite Goddess, Maiden, Mother, Crone, she who must be pursued, she who must be protected, and she who must be listened to.  Once we begin to think of the Three as mere romantic opportunities for Rand that can be massaged to downplay some in favor of another, they lose that important, and I would argue necessary character.

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

I disagree that they need to move Rand's relationship with Min forward, earlier on.  Min's relationship with Rand is, by the end of the series, the most well developed and natural of any of the Three.  She spends an order of magnitude more time with him than Aviendha or especially Elayne.

 

That's not exactly what I mean. I don't want to move their relationship forward. I don't really want to change the arc much at all. But I want to introduce Min to viewers unfamiliar with the book in a way where they can get to know her as a character rather than have her pop up once in season 1 and then not again until near the end of season 2.

 

7 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

Thematically, the Eye of the World introduces the characters and sets the stage for their future development.  But none of the characters, barring Nynaeve, and her only barely, undergo any real growth or change.  Things happen to them, or are revealed about them, but none of them have a chance to do anything about them yet, or use them to grow as people.  Perrin gets revealed to be a wolf brother.  Mat steals the ruby-hilted dagger, which gives him holes in his memory to be filled in later by the Eelfinn.  And Rand is ultimately revealed to be a male channeller, and to the audience at least, the Dragon Reborn.  But none of their characters really have a chance to deal with those events and revelations or grow from any of those things happening to them.  The boys, at the end of tEotW, are the same hay-haired farmboys they were at the beginning, just with some new problems to deal with.  The real character growth, and the real story of team Dragon Reborn, doesn't begin until The Great Hunt.  For Mat, it doesn't even really begin until The Dragon Reborn.

 

I agree 100%. But I also think that if this is going to be a successful show, the focus has to be on the characters, not the plot. Which means the first season is about learning who these folks are by seeing how they react to a bunch of really horrible situations. So in that sense, season one is about the Emond's fielders finding their agency in the world. They learn to act on the world instead of having it act on them.

 

12 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

And that's fine.  TEotW is effectively a giant prologue to the whole story, unsurprising out of an author who loves his lengthy prologues.  It introduces us to the core of who these characters are, so we can get used to them and care about the development that comes later.  Adding in a new and developing romance during that period muddies those waters.  Now, Rand is changing and growing as a person, before we even got a chance to know who he really is yet.

 

Right. This is actually my exact point. The trip to Baerlon is going to get a scene or maybe two - even at the most deliberate pace. There will be a chance for a few lines of dialogue between Rand and Min at best. What point does she serve here? And why spend the valuable screen time introducing her when it could be better spent elsewhere?

 

17 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

I think the early stages of Min's relationship with Rand as it is in the books is fine.  Rand's attracted to her, but she scares the hell out of him and basically chases him off with a demonstration of her unique ability.  I reckon the only change that needs to be made there is that Min's viewing that she will fall in love with Rand, and that they will become lovers needs to be made more explicit; make us privy to her whispered conversations with Moiraine or something.  And that the infallibility of Min's viewings need to be made more explicit earlier on as well.  They could even throw in Moiraine and Thom's future marriage as a somewhat vague viewing, so it seems a little less out-of-the-blue later on. 

 

This is a good example of why this is so complicated. To do what you suggest, the tv show will have to establish in this scene both (1) that Min has viewings; and (2) why those viewings are important. They may want to find a visual way to convey these viewings - involving CGI design, etc. Even if you only do it with dialogue, the show will need a scene establishing what viewing she had and what it means.

 

While this can all be done, that's a lot of work to put into a character that we won't see again for close to two seasons.

 

27 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

Then Min goes to track him down, as she understands better than anyone that she doesn't really have a choice.  When she finally finds him, she spends weeks helping nurse him back to health, and begins to fall for him.  Then, Rand runs off and she has to go alert the Aes Sedai in Tar Valon, as she's really the only one that can.  When she finally meets up with him again, after the Waste arc, she never really leaves his side again.

 

The only thing that changes in my "re-write" is that Min doesn't have to track Rand down. She meets him in Fal Dara and is part of the expedition for the horn. 

 

The audience meets her and is exposed to her - not as "fated to fall for Rand" - but as the woman who is going to help track Padan Fain. We get introduced to her powers in that context.

 

Then the audience can be with Min as she has her vision of marrying him. They can feel her pain and root for her after she falls into the Portal World and watches Rand slobber all over Selene. [Alternatively, they can watch her as she wants to hate Rand for being such a boob with Selene, only to see her compassion for him win out when she determines to nurse him back to health.

 

33 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

Save the building up of romantic relationships for Rand for season 3 or 4, depending on how much they cut or mash up.  If they can make the Fall of the Stone a midseason climax and start that season with Rand in the mountains, and end it with the capture of Asmodean, they can get the beginnings of the relationships with all Three in one season.  Which would make things much more thematically consistent, and help put each of the Three on more even ground.  Min gets some time with him early on, then Elayne gets her time with him in Tear, and finally Aviendha gets to tear into him towards the end. 

 

And we're back in alignment because I agree 1000% with all of this. The story is right back in line with Jordan's plot. The Min/Rand romance develops along the same arc. All we've lost is Hurin, whose role later in the series can fall to any number of people.

 

[Incidentally, I see the fall of the Stone as a mid-season climax for a longer (maybe 10-12 episode) season 3 that ends with Rand's return from Rhuidean and the Battle of the Two Rivers.]

 

38 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

While I understand that some fans have their preferred lover for Rand, and would rather drop or minimize the romance with the other two, and enhance the romance with their preferred choice, I think that's a mistake.  If anything, the Three need to be given more equal prominence; some way should be contrived for Elayne to spend more time with Rand, probably later in the series, and Rand needs to be more conflicted and confused about three women who all love him romantically, and who he loves in return.  The Three play into an important archetype of the story as a foundation of myth and legend: they represent the Tri-partite Goddess, Maiden, Mother, Crone, she who must be pursued, she who must be protected, and she who must be listened to.  Once we begin to think of the Three as mere romantic opportunities for Rand that can be massaged to downplay some in favor of another, they lose that important, and I would argue necessary character.

 

I agree with this as well. I don't want to sacrifice any of them or even mess with the weird polyamory angle much. But I do think changing the viewers introductions to Elayne and Min will make Elayne and Min both better characters in the tv version.

[Thrasymachus]

But you're mistaking Min's relationship with the audience as a character, with Min's relationship with Rand.  We only meet Min once in The Eye of the World, that's true, but she shows up again almost immediately in The Great Hunt.  She's at Tar Valon, where she goes after the inn at Baerlon gets burned down, because that's where she understands Moiraine to be taking Rand and the rest of them.  There, she hooks up with Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne, and goes off with them on their misadventures to Falme.  The audience gets a lot of time with her to find out who she is, and what she can do, way before there's any kind of relationship with Rand, other than the foreknowledge that there will be one.  With your change, she doesn't go to Tar Valon and hang with the Wonder Girls, and we don't learn who she is apart from Rand.  She becomes a mere appendage to Rand's journey, instead of her own character.  

 

If anything Min needs to be a much more independently established character, even than she is in the books, acting less out of a love for Rand, than out of wisdom and understanding of the Pattern her ability gives her and a sense of duty to a world she's really ready to sort of leave behind anyway, to fulfill her role as Crone of the Tri-partite Goddess.  The Crone represents wisdom and offers the God guidance and comfort.  To do that, she needs to be experienced and developed apart from the God's particular needs and idiosyncratic desires.  If anything, what Min needs is a few standalone scenes of her journey from Baerlon to Tar Valon, if only anything interesting happened to her, which it didn't.  What she doesn't need is more time with Rand.

[Elder_Haman]

12 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

But you're mistaking Min's relationship with the audience as a character, with Min's relationship with Rand.  We only meet Min once in The Eye of the World, that's true, but she shows up again almost immediately in The Great Hunt.  She's at Tar Valon, where she goes after the inn at Baerlon gets burned down, because that's where she understands Moiraine to be taking Rand and the rest of them.  There, she hooks up with Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne, and goes off with them on their misadventures to Falme.  The audience gets a lot of time with her to find out who she is, and what she can do, way before there's any kind of relationship with Rand, other than the foreknowledge that there will be one. 

 

What does Min actually do while she's with Nynaeve, Elayne and Egwene? What do you really learn about her? She's captured by the Seanchan and (I guess) serves as the conduit through which Nynaeve rescues Egwene.

 

But what do you learn about Min during that whole episode? Not much. And being that she's not physically with any of the other main characters during that time, she exists only as a side character.

 

23 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

 With your change, she doesn't go to Tar Valon and hang with the Wonder Girls, and we don't learn who she is apart from Rand.  She becomes a mere appendage to Rand's journey, instead of her own character.  

 

As a stand in for Hurin, she is necessary to the plot and actively engaged in it. I'm not sure how that makes her a "mere appendage to Rand". Honestly, it's exactly the opposite. As written, she's an appendage to "the Wonder Girls" (lol, love that) the entire time they're in Falme.

 

29 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

If anything, what Min needs is a few standalone scenes of her journey from Baerlon to Tar Valon, if only anything interesting happened to her, which it didn't.  What she doesn't need is more time with Rand.

 

Just because she's near Rand, doesn't mean she has to be with Rand. But she does need screen time. 

 

At any rate, it will be interesting to see what they choose to do. It's a fun topic and you make some interesting points.

[Thrasymachus]

We learn quite a bit about her, actually.  We learn more about her abilities, and how they've always driven a wedge between herself and those around her.  We learn how much she dislikes them, and how much of a sacrifice it is for her to be in a city full of Aes Sedai and Warders, where she can't escape her powers.  We learn how much she hates sitting around and doing nothing, and hates how much her talents are being wasted by the Amrylin, who doesn't seem to really believe in them.  We learn lots of little things about her character: her wit, her underlying femininity in spite of wearing boy's clothes, her loyalty to her friends, her maturity that rivals or exceeds Nynaeve's in being able to overcome Galad's good looks, and her faith in the Pattern.  And some things that set up interesting subversions later on, like her distaste for the Seanchan practice of keeping slaves and actually leashing damane.

 

If she replaces Hurin, she's not a major part of the plot.  Hurin doesn't get any development apart from Rand.  In fact, he doesn't get any at all.  He's a sycophant to Rand who's learning to deal with people being sycophantically loyal to him for the first time.  Hurin's not necessary to the plot because he tracks the Horn.  That's literally the least important thing about him.  That could be replaced by ta'veren; every time Rand feels like he's losing the trail, he could close his eyes, jump in the air and spin about, and just go in the direction he's pointing.  It could be replaced by Loial having an innate sense of prior violence and evil, which would be consistent with Ogier disliking violence and their role as peacekeepers in the Age of Legends.  It could be replaced by Selene showing up with some ter'angreal to help them find their way out.  Hurin's necessary to the plot because he sucks up to Rand constantly, in spite of being told not to, calling him "Lord Rand," bowing and knuckling his forehead and taking his least suggestion as a command, and Rand learning to deal with that despite his feeling like he's not worthy of that kind of devotion.  That's not a role Min should take up.  It would definitely make her a mere appendage to Rand from that point on, rather than being her own character, with her own reasons for pursuing Rand and loving him.