What would you want to tell Rafe Judkins about making the show?

[johnnysd]

Here are the things I would ask of Rafe:

 

1. The main photography of WOT series should be very colorful. Not washed out or dark like so many shows these days. The palette should be very similar to LOTR

2. If you do the first thing then you can use different palettes and filters for the non-world settings such as tel'aran'rhiod, the Ways and Portal Stones

3. Please do not make Min trans-gendered. There are many areas of the WOT world where they can lgbt inclusive, and I think they will and should-but I don't think Min is the character for that.

4. Please, please please! for all that is good and holy make Taim Demandred as originally intended. And Logain should be the one to fight him.

5. Use reincarnation very sparingly. It makes sense for Ishamael/Moridin but otherwise don't use it. 

6. This one will be controversial: Do not kill Lanfear and have Moiraine stuck in Finn-land for very long. Move the rescue up significantly and have Lanfear be a core protaganist for the entire series, and a weakended Moiraine who can really only advise.

7.  With all respect to Effete above, I think it is important to show weaving both saidar and saidin fairly often. It is a story steeped in magic. Taking an understated more inferred approach to magic is the wrong choice IMO

8. Completely dump Luc/Isam

9. Use CGI for a lot of vanity shots, especially the cities, white tower, etc... They need to come alive. GOT shied away from this but WOT needs to be a place of awe

10. Definitely show the visions of the Age of Legends 

11. Another controversial one: if the show is able to complete the series allow for an episode or 2 or even more AFTER the Last Battle. Show where the characters wind up and what they ultimately become ie Mat with Tuon, rebuilding a united Aes Sedai, Nynaeve and Lan (I would like to see the LB destroy the blight and N+L restoring Malkier, Rand  (Idea for post credits scene after series finale: modern day  archaeological dig, excitement over a big discovery and then a reveal of something maybe the ruins of Tar Valon or the Horn of Valere something like that.)

 

HOWEVER

 

Here is the most important one: Make the show true to itself.  As the show goes on it will divert more and more from the books. Actors and writers put their own spin on the characters. The plot will become more and more divergent from the books.  Embrace that and go where it leads. GOT did not do this. They knew the ending but for the characters and events of those in the TV show that ending literally made no sense whatsoever. The ending should have been what was best for the TV show. Along these lines, the Last Battle as told in the books will likely be much different than what is in the books. 

[Harldin]

20 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

Here are the things I would ask of Rafe:

 

1. The main photography of WOT series should be very colorful. Not washed out or dark like so many shows these days. The palette should be very similar to LOTR

2. If you do the first thing then you can use different palettes and filters for the non-world settings such as tel'aran'rhiod, the Ways and Portal Stones

3. Please do not make Min trans-gendered. There are many areas of the WOT world where they can lgbt inclusive, and I think they will and should-but I don't think Min is the character for that.

4. Please, please please! for all that is good and holy make Taim Demandred as originally intended. And Logain should be the one to fight him.

5. Use reincarnation very sparingly. It makes sense for Ishamael/Moridin but otherwise don't use it. 

6. This one will be controversial: Do not kill Lanfear and have Moiraine stuck in Finn-land for very long. Move the rescue up significantly and have Lanfear be a core protaganist for the entire series, and a weakended Moiraine who can really only advise.

7.  With all respect to Effete above, I think it is important to show weaving both saidar and saidin fairly often. It is a story steeped in magic. Taking an understated more inferred approach to magic is the wrong choice IMO

8. Completely dump Luc/Isam

9. Use CGI for a lot of vanity shots, especially the cities, white tower, etc... They need to come alive. GOT shied away from this but WOT needs to be a place of awe

10. Definitely show the visions of the Age of Legends 

11. Another controversial one: if the show is able to complete the series allow for an episode or 2 or even more AFTER the Last Battle. Show where the characters wind up and what they ultimately become ie Mat with Tuon, rebuilding a united Aes Sedai, Nynaeve and Lan (I would like to see the LB destroy the blight and N+L restoring Malkier, Rand  (Idea for post credits scene after series finale: modern day  archaeological dig, excitement over a big discovery and then a reveal of something maybe the ruins of Tar Valon or the Horn of Valere something like that.)

 

HOWEVER

 

Here is the most important one: Make the show true to itself.  As the show goes on it will divert more and more from the books. Actors and writers put their own spin on the characters. The plot will become more and more divergent from the books.  Embrace that and go where it leads. GOT did not do this. They knew the ending but for the characters and events of those in the TV show that ending literally made no sense whatsoever. The ending should have been what was best for the TV show. Along these lines, the Last Battle as told in the books will likely be much different than what is in the books. 

warning spoilers
 

You propose 1 massive and 1-2 major plot changes then say don’t divert to far from the Books, need to make up your mind. Bringing Morraine back early will cause major changes to Cadsuane’s storyline, you can’t have both of those 2 together. If Morraine come back early then i think she would keep Rand more sane and that changes so much in the story. Rand’s insanity is vital to the whole story and his being healed on Dragonmount adds so much.

 

Don’t necessarily agree they will drift to far from the books, they don’t need to. GOT is a great example of what happens when you run out of published material.
 

No chance of any Storyline post Last Battle, don’t think Harriet will allow it and is probably in the Contract that the series ends where AMOL does. Harriet is on record as saying RJ would not want any further Books written outside the main series and i would think she would extend that to the TV series. I do hope they put in Aviendha’s visions of the future though, gives us a glimpse of a possible future.

 

 

[johnnysd]

On 6/22/2020 at 5:19 PM, Harldin said:

warning spoilers
 

You propose 1 massive and 1-2 major plot changes then say don’t divert to far from the Books, need to make up your mind. Bringing Morraine back early will cause major changes to Cadsuane’s storyline, you can’t have both of those 2 together. If Morraine come back early then i think she would keep Rand more sane and that changes so much in the story. Rand’s insanity is vital to the whole story and his being healed on Dragonmount adds so much.

 

Don’t necessarily agree they will drift to far from the books, they don’t need to. GOT is a great example of what happens when you run out of published material.
 

No chance of any Storyline post Last Battle, don’t think Harriet will allow it and is probably in the Contract that the series ends where AMOL does. Harriet is on record as saying RJ would not want any further Books written outside the main series and i would think she would extend that to the TV series. I do hope they put in Aviendha’s visions of the future though, gives us a glimpse of a possible future.

 

 

 

Fair enough. Taimendred really would be restoring what should be by Jordan's own notes so that one is not really a change.

 

I totally get where you are coming from on Cadsuane and Moiraine.  However she does not even show up until book 7. I just don't see them getting 12 seasons or more to tell the story.

 

I think the first 3 books in the TV show can run fairly close to the books but past that there will need to be a lot of streamlining of the story I would think.  And I knew that those suggestions would be controversial. 

 

In terms of the scene I suggested it is not a story outside of the WOT, maybe just a 90 second clip that ties WOT to earth and both our distant future and distant past. No storyline.

 

Which was the massive one and the 2 major ones?

[Harldin]

1 hour ago, johnnysd said:

 

Fair enough. Taimendred really would be restoring what should be by Jordan's own notes so that one is not really a change.

 

I totally get where you are coming from on Cadsuane and Moiraine.  However she does not even show up until book 7. I just don't see them getting 12 seasons or more to tell the story.

 

I think the first 3 books in the TV show can run fairly close to the books but past that there will need to be a lot of streamlining of the story I would think.  And I knew that those suggestions would be controversial. 

 

In terms of the scene I suggested it is not a story outside of the WOT, maybe just a 90 second clip that ties WOT to earth and both our distant future and distant past. No storyline.

 

Which was the massive one and the 2 major ones?

warning spoilers
 

Bringing Morraine back early is the massive one, Taimendred is one major one,  not killing Lanfear, cutting down on reincarnation and cutting Luc/Isam are all fairly big changes. 
There is a lot of hints that the 1st Season will go well into TGH. I think S1 will end with the boys in Carhien and the girls leaving with Liandrin and S2 in the Stone. and S3 with Rand defeating Rahvin following Morraine’s “Death”. 
We will see scenes from the AOL i have no doubts and some Easter Eggs about our Age but I’m not sure about any future scenes. Viewers love Easter Eggs so we will see them scattered through the series(just please no old abandoned Cars, a-la Shannara chroniccraples). 

[Riamus]

As a huge fan of WoT, having read the first 6 or so books perhaps as many as 8 times, with a decreased number of times for each following book (I'd read the series from the start every time a new book came out), I am really looking forward to this series.  I've wanted a TV series or movie series for WoT since probably 2000-2001 and having this coming out now is great.  Warning: This is very long and you may not care to read all of it, but I wanted to share my thoughts.

 

That said, because I've read the series so much and am such a fan, I want this to be done right.  I don't know if anyone here has read the Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind, but it's a very similar series to WoT.  I'd say that they each were reading the other's books and taking ideas from one another because there were so many similarities.  In the end, WoT was definitely the better series, but SoT is also good.  Anyhow, SoT was made into a TV series and got all of one season before dying.  I watched part of the first episode and couldn't watch anymore and that's what I hope will not happen here.  Why couldn't I watch even the entirety of the first episode?  Simple.  If the book states that something happens a certain way, then I expect the movie or TV series to follow that.  Sure, some things need changed to make it work as video instead of text, but some things have no place being changed.  In the book series (spoiler alert), Richard was given the Sword of Truth from his grandfather, Zedd.  Zedd had taken it and kept it hidden because it was being given out without a wizard's approval for basically political reasons.  Later in the story, this becomes important because Richard meets the person who it was taken from.  In the TV series, Kahlan brings the sword to Richard and gives it to him.  I doubt anyone could give me any valid reason why this should have been changed.  My point being that if something happens a certain way in the book, and especially if that leads to something happening a certain way later in the series, then do not change it!  For example, if they decided to make it so that Rand and Egwene were not interested in each other at all in the beginning of the story, or that they decide to have Mat find the dagger somewhere else, perhaps saying a darkfriend dropped it and he picked it up... those would ruin the TV series for me regardless of anything else.  I want to see what was in the books and not what the screenplay writers or director think sounds better.

 

Second, and from comments I've seen, apparently this is a common complaint and people are tired of hearing it, but I want to put in my two cents anyhow... Casting of characters needs to make sense.  We aren't talking about casting for something like LoTR, where Tolkein didn't provide a great deal of description for his characters and you could therefore pick anyone you want to play them.  Jordan describes his characters in great detail and repeatedly.  Not only that, but most of the main characters ended up being depicted on the book covers and in general I believe they matched the written descriptions fairly well (though Loial was far too short on the cover he was shown on).  Here's the problem for me... I already "know" the characters.  I've met them many times and they are "friends."  If my "friend," who I know looks a certain way shows up looking entirely different, then I know it's not my friend regardless of how well they act the part.  Because Jordan describes everything so well, it's important to follow his descriptions as well as possible.  That doesn't mean you can't cast someone with brown hair for Elayne, who is described as having red hair, but it means that if you do, you had better put her in a red wig or dye her hair red.  I chose Elayne because as far as I know, she hasn't yet been cast and therefore no one can say I'm biased against whoever was cast for the part.  Now, here's just some things to really consider about the Two Rivers at the beginning of the series.  First, it was a very tight-knit and closed off part of the world with little contact with the outside world.  Padan Fain was pretty much their only contact.  Taim was unusual in that he actually left and returned.  The Two Rivers would not have been a mix of ethnic groups and races.  Maybe there may have been the rare person who wasn't the same ethnicity or race as every else, but in general, the area should be very one dimensional.  That does mean that the actresses for Egwene, Nynaeve, and the actor for Perrin don't make sense.  I can accept the actor for Padan Fain as he was not from the Two Rivers, but those three characters should be white (probably modern-day English) and that is not due to any prejudice.  It is entirely due to the way the story was written by Jordan.  Once you leave the Two Rivers, then you start getting into the "mixing pots" in much of the rest of the world, but even then, you should be paying attention to what Jordan wrote.  For example, the people beyond the Aiel Waste (I'm drawing a blank on what they were called), are described as being very dark-skinned.  The Aiel are described in a way that, at least to me, would suggest that they are eastern Asian, though their culture to me seems more Native American.  These people should not be changed to something else.  This would be like having the Aiel be a mix of all races instead of a single race, which would absolutely not make any sense.  They do not allow any outsiders in other than peddlers and Tuatha'an (who happen to be the same people, just a different "branch").

 

Related to that, Min, Elayne, and Aviendha are very clearly described to be very different in looks and personalities.  I think it's extremely important that the actresses cast as these three should also be very different in looks (preferably matching the books' descriptions) and that they are shown to have very different personalities.  Elayne is your high and mighty "princess" character, Min is your very strong and independent woman, and Aviendha could almost be described as a religious fighter, though it isn't really religious.  She just follows ji-e-toh, which although not religious has a similarity.  And although I described Min as being strong and independent, that does apply to all of them, but it's Min's main qualities, where for the others, I personally think of them as secondary to the main description.  But regardless how you think of them, they are different in looks and personality.  Elayne being red haired, Min if I remember right, being brown haired, and Aviendha being black haired.  Aviendha is darker skinned and although I'm not sure that it exactly describes them as such, I picture Elayne being far paler than Min.

 

So, here's what I would ask for regarding casting... Choose actors/actresses who are at least similar in looks to what Jordan describes.  This includes hair color, such as blonde for Nynaeve and red for Elayne.  This includes appropriate races and ethnicities unless you want to use makeup to "change" someone's race or ethnicity, which isn't the best option.  This also includes things like hair length and height and hair style.  For example, Rand is described as being much taller than is normal for the Two Rivers and Moiraine is described as being very short.  Nynaeve is described as having very long and thick braid and Egwene in the beginning was one the verge of finally being able to braid her hair, which also means having long enough hair to braid (women in the Two Rivers in the beginning of the story should all have long hair as it's a cultural thing).  And, of course, many Seanchan will need to have their heads shaved or half shaved.  There are MANY characters in this series and MANY of them will be main characters, so there is no need to try to cast an equal number of each race or ethnicity immediately in an area of the world where that shouldn't be the case.  You'll have plenty of opportunity to have an equal cast as the story leaves the Two Rivers.  And looking at the choice of cast, that is what it appears they are trying to do... have many different races/ethnicities equally represented right from the start.  That's a great way to ruin the story.  The books should be treated as historical fact that you are then representing in a TV series.  Just like you shouldn't be casting Vin Diesel as Benjamin Franklin, or even casting Robert Di Nero as Sherlock Holmes (he may be fictional, but everyone knows he's white and English), you should also be casting the characters of WoT based on the books and not some political or whatever decision.  In a similar vein, age and gender need to match.  This should be obvious, but apparently not all directors understand it.  There is a book series called Artemis Fowl that had a movie made out of mostly book 1.  The commander of the faeries is male in the books and is female in the movie.  Now, I love the actress cast has the commander, but there is no valid reason to change the gender of a character.  In addition, Artemis' guardian has a sister in the books, who though younger than him is still an adult.  In the movies, they cast a girl in her lower teens and then called her, I believe, his niece.  Again, there is no valid reason to change that.  Stick to the story as if it's historical fact that you are making a show of and you'll end up with a much better result.

 

I noticed talk about language used and suggestions of using modern day language for swearing in addition to Jordan's form of swearing.  I do not think that's a good idea, nor is it necessary for this series to do well.  WoT is an extremely well-known series compared to most fantasy series and has a very strong following.  I don't know if it's as strong as Tolkein's or perhaps even stronger, but it is still very strong and as long as the series is done right, it will do very well.  It certainly doesn't need modern day words to sell it to audiences.  It was suggested to use modern language for places that are just described rather than quoted, but if you chose any movie set in the modern day and had characters swearing in modern day language as well as language from the middle ages or even the 1800s?  It just wouldn't sound right.  You might get away with using a different form of wording for someone who is especially eccentric (an old eccentric historian might swear in an older form), but it only makes sense if it fits and modern language doesn't fit Jordan's world.  You can't even say that it's a relic from the past because the past (the Age of Legends) has words that are even more foreign to us today than what you see in "modern" WoT.

 

Someone else suggested making the series TV-14 or whatever so it's fit for all ages.  I disagree.  You can't get that rating with all of the fighting that will be in the series and you definitely cannot remove that or tone it down.  It has to be "real."  Second, although I generally think that things like nudity are overdone these days and are just there to draw people in, in this case, I think removing it would be the wrong way to go.  Jordan never uses it in the way most movies and TV shows use it today to draw people in... it's not used in vulgar ways or anything like that.  It's almost entirely cultural except for a limited number of sexual content scenes across the entire series.  We should definitely not see what GoT did in the first season, but we should see a natural and cultural display that matches what Jordan wrote.  If you remove nudity from the Aiel, for example, you remove a very important part of their culture.  The same for the Seanchan slaves, who though not actually nude wear clothing that leaves them in just about the same state.  Now, that being said, could they do it with suggestive shots that don't actually show anything?  Perhaps.  And I'd be fine with that as long as it is done well.  But to completely remove it?  Not a good idea.

 

I also hope to see the character personalities portrayed well.  I want to see Mat being the scoundrel and then see how he reacts to the tables being turned around on him when he starts being chased by the Tylin and then see how his personality shifts as he falls in love with Tuon over time.  I want to see Perrin change over time from the strong, but quiet and patient blacksmith to the wolf and then see the struggle to "put down the ax."  I want to see Rand's character development from the carefree person in the very beginning before everything happens to the scared and unsure youth just trying to stay alive, to eventually the strong leader, with everything in between, including the madness.  I want to see Padan Fain as just a plain darkfriend in the beginning to what he becomes later on.  Of course, most of these personality changes won't be seen at all if we don't see many seasons, so I definitely hope this does well, but it should be planned from the start to accurately depict the personalities and shifts in personality over the course of the series.

 

And although I could probably continue on, I'll end this by saying that the heights of Trollocs and Ogier need to be depicted correctly.  They are much taller than humans.

Edited June 25, 2020 by Riamus
Typos in name

[Thrasymachus]

Nynaeve's not blonde, and Two Rivers folk aren't white, Elaida checks Rand's tanlines to remark that he isn't colored like a native Two River's person.  Aiel are pale where the sun doesn't touch them, and tanned brown otherwise, with blonde to red hair being typical. Padan Fain is far from their only link to the outside for the Two Rivers, peddlers and merchants are not at all uncommon, and even immigrants or marrying outsiders, while not the norm and an occasion for comment and gossip, is not so outside the norm that people are ostracized or mistrusted over it.  And if you think that even very isolated populations (which the Two Rivers is not) tend to homogenize phenotypes over less than 50 generations, you need to go back to biology 101.  This battle over casting has already been fought, and the bigots and those arguing for some kind of racial purity test for casting lost.  As they should.

[johnnysd]

16 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

Nynaeve's not blonde, and Two Rivers folk aren't white, Elaida checks Rand's tanlines to remark that he isn't colored like a native Two River's person.  Aiel are pale where the sun doesn't touch them, and tanned brown otherwise, with blonde to red hair being typical. Padan Fain is far from their only link to the outside for the Two Rivers, peddlers and merchants are not at all uncommon, and even immigrants or marrying outsiders, while not the norm and an occasion for comment and gossip, is not so outside the norm that people are ostracized or mistrusted over it.  And if you think that even very isolated populations (which the Two Rivers is not) tend to homogenize phenotypes over less than 50 generations, you need to go back to biology 101.  This battle over casting has already been fought, and the bigots and those arguing for some kind of racial purity test for casting lost.  As they should.

 

Agree the racial outcry against the casting is so lame. There is a pic below of the cast together. Even going by Jordan's descriptions the cast dynamic is exceedingly close to what Jordan described. Amazingly so actually. And Jordan's descriptions are not all that descriptive as previous poster says. Elayne's description bounces around all over the place especially her hair which is sometimes golden, sometimes golden red and sometimes reddish gold. She's strawberry blond probably but you could picture here anywhere in that range. Egwen IS desribed several times as "dark"

 

In terms of the characters they chose they all fit very well.  If you were given just the pics of each character without who they are playing most on this board would have guessed the character they are playing 100% correct. They are very close. They are not all as pale as Moiraine.  Please move on. It is close to perfect, bot facially and physically. Oh and Rosamund will be wearing a brunette wig in the show as well.

 

Also, if you look at Mat, Egwene, Perrin and Nynaeve they all have similar coloring, but Rand sticks out a little which is the exact intent of what Jordan wanted.

 

Do they look exactly as I pictured them? No, though Moiraine and Rand are very very close, But that doesnt really matter as much as how they look together which as I said is close to perfect.

 

Also, Aiel Eastern Asian? Seriously?  More like tall people from Ireland. They are all tall with blonde to very red hair and light eyes. 

[Ascended]

I agree, the casting has so far been just beyond words. 

 

Now, I'll admit, when I first saw the photos I was taken aback. In my head, I envisioned the Two Rivers as being a vaguely Western European region, like the UK or New England in the States, what with the weather and flora/fauna. And being a vaguely Western European/New England type of area that rarely saw outsiders settle down there, I assumed it was populated with vaguely Western European looking white people. 

 

But the text doesn't say the people of the Two Rivers are Caucasian. And Manatharean was a massive nation filled with people from all over the continent, so of course you'd have more variety in skin tone than I originally envisioned. And I'm glad that the casting of this show made me pay more attention in my latest re-read, because nothing in the text says a lot of these characters are white. 

 

And just beyond all of that, you can look at a lot of the cast and just know who they're playing. I mean, I didn't think of Perrin as having a darker skin tone, but looking at the actor I knew what role he was playing before I got to the name. Same with Mat and Rand and Lan. Their features capture the descriptions perfectly. 

[Thrasymachus]

I think it's natural to envision the main characters of a story as being similar to oneself, when reading a story, especially when the descriptions are vague enough to allow one to fill in those blanks.  With that said, we have to extend that same charity to all the very different-looking readers and fans of the series out there.  In reading the books, I never pictured the Borderlanders as being Asian-looking.  They always had more of a dark Viking or Native American look in my mind, but with Asian-style topknots and armor.  I pictured Italian, with the prominent Roman nose for Saldaeans.  But I'm not so wedded to my head-canon that I can't understand how others can see other things in their heads, given what's written on the page.  For all that Jordan spends a great deal of time describing the way that the different peoples of his world look, most of the distinction between them involves their dress, comportment and habits.  And I agree with the showrunners that the most important thing for casting is to have the right quality of actor in the right place.  Not making sure they're checking some racial consistency box.

 

I agree that the cast they've got is fantastic.  Both in appearance, and from what I've seen of their acting.  The only thing I want out of Rafe at the moment is to see if they can release, like, half the first season more or less on time, and only delay the second half from this pandemic shutdown.  I'd understand if not, but I'd also rather have 4 episodes and a 6-8 month wait for the last 4, than a 6-8 month delay for all 8.  I watch Rick and Morty and the Orville, it's not like I'm not used to being patient for TV.

[RDY]

From the casting we've seen so far, I think only Rand's description (tall, redhead, with light eyes) was a limitation.

 

All the others went basically either through color-blind casting or were named Rosamund Pike, and got the job because she was the most famous and talented actress they could find for that big role.

 

There were audition tapes of actors that didn't make the cut for Nynaeve, Mat and Padan Fain released in the net (and taken down later). Guess what, there was a white actress trying for Nynaeve that looked like most of the fanart (braid included) and a black guy trying for Mat. And Rafe chose the black actress for Nynaeve and the white guy for Mat. My guess is that the actors that were chosen were simply the best ones that fit for that role, all description aside, just by personality.

 

Let's see other deviations:

 

Lan - east asian actor for a character that's described as having blue eyes

Eamon Valda - black actor for a white character

Cenn Buie - white actor for a black character (dark as roots Jordan described him)

Padan Fain - black actor for a white character

Ms Grimwell - brunette actress for a character that's described as the first blonde person Rand meets in his life

Siuan - black actress for a character that's described as pale (but was drawn as dark skinned in the New Spring comic, which had lots of input by Jordan while he was alive)

 

And so on.

 

Do you see a pattern? The only pattern is the lack of pattern. It's color blind casting, something that happens a lot in theater plays. And it's happening here. So people should adjust their expectations, race-wise. On the other hand, with talent being the only determinant for who gets which role, we're probably going to get very good acting. Considering what happened with Sansa in the A Song of Ice and Fire - Game of Thrones adaptation, I prefer it this way. Sophie Turner kind of looked like Sansa once she dyed her hair, but boy she had trouble acting.
 

[Thrasymachus]

I disagree that it's "color-blind" casting.  Rather, it's a matter of prioritization and adaptation not just for a new medium, but also for our changed and changing culture.  I think having a black guy as Eamon Valda is great.  A black guy leading a bunch of white-robed zealots on a tear for "purity," condemning people for something they're born with and can't control (a sparker will channel eventually, and keep channelling for the rest of their lives even if it's subconsciously through a block) is a fantastic contrast.  And I say that when my own mental image of Valda was someone who looked a lot more like Tom Selleck (when he was a bit younger).  And considering the Whitecloaks eventually go through a redemption arc of their own, that'll feel a lot more earned and be more accepted if they weren't quite so visually obviously an analog for the KKK.

 

Fain as a black guy matters not at all, the man goes through so many transformations in appearance and mannerisms, and while he's a catalyst for a lot of important plot points, especially early on, his skin color is never something that matters.  I don't even recall that we get a clear description of his appearance; it's his chameleonic demeanor that matters.

 

The fact of the matter is that most of the time Jordan describes the racial characteristics of a people, the shape of their noses or eyes, eye color, height, hair color, etc., he does so in combinations that are extremely rare, if they exist at all, in our current races.  Extremely tall redheads who tan well are simply not that common.  Tilted eyes that are also blue, combined with large Roman noses, are likewise not common.  When casting for these roles, it doesn't matter whether they get every little detail right, or even the major ones, on these impossible combinations.

 

What matters is to cast actors who can portray the emotions and deliver the lines to convey the characters well, first and foremost.  How they look is secondary to that.  Nobody thinks that Daniel Radcliff was a bad cast for Harry Potter because he doesn't have green eyes, even though having his mother's eyes was a major plot point.  Nobody complains that Elijah Woods' Frodo wasn't blonde.  Nobody complains that Jack Nicholson's McMurphy in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest wasn't a redhead and wasn't scarred across his nose and cheek.  And people will fight you if you suggest that Morgan Freeman's Red in Shawshank Redemption wasn't brilliant casting, in spite of his not being a red-headed Irishman.  Or short little brunette Tom Cruise playing the 6+ foot blonde vampire Lestat.

 

An adaptation for the small screen is going to be just that: an adaptation.  Things will change.  What happens will be different from what happens in the books.  People and places will look different both from how you envisioned them in your own head, and how they're explicitly described on the page.  Important themes from the books will be dropped, while others are magnified, and even new ones introduced.  If you can't handle that, then you need to get over yourself.  Or at the very least, not shit on everybody else who's interested in seeing where these changes go, or implying that those who are making these changes don't care about the work they're doing or the original source material they're working from.

[Samma3l]

1 hour ago, Thrasymachus said:

I disagree that it's "color-blind" casting.  Rather, it's a matter of prioritization and adaptation not just for a new medium, but also for our changed and changing culture.  I think having a black guy as Eamon Valda is great.  A black guy leading a bunch of white-robed zealots on a tear for "purity," condemning people for something they're born with and can't control (a sparker will channel eventually, and keep channelling for the rest of their lives even if it's subconsciously through a block) is a fantastic contrast.  And I say that when my own mental image of Valda was someone who looked a lot more like Tom Selleck (when he was a bit younger).  And considering the Whitecloaks eventually go through a redemption arc of their own, that'll feel a lot more earned and be more accepted if they weren't quite so visually obviously an analog for the KKK.

If this was hos own show i wouldent care at all, but the characters already exist and as such you kinda have to follow it, specially on the main characters/characters who are in the story the most

1 hour ago, Thrasymachus said:

 

Fain as a black guy matters not at all, the man goes through so many transformations in appearance and mannerisms, and while he's a catalyst for a lot of important plot points, especially early on, his skin color is never something that matters.  I don't even recall that we get a clear description of his appearance; it's his chameleonic demeanor that matters.

And sure Fains skin colour dont really matter in the end just a point

1 hour ago, Thrasymachus said:

 

The fact of the matter is that most of the time Jordan describes the racial characteristics of a people, the shape of their noses or eyes, eye color, height, hair color, etc., he does so in combinations that are extremely rare, if they exist at all, in our current races.  Extremely tall redheads who tan well are simply not that common.  Tilted eyes that are also blue, combined with large Roman noses, are likewise not common.  When casting for these roles, it doesn't matter whether they get every little detail right, or even the major ones, on these impossible combinations.

Some characters have things that kinda characterize them, and to remove those characterizations it kinda destroys those characters

 

[Thrasymachus]

Lan's blue eyes don't characterize him.  His stoney, hard face and height matter more.  But even more important than those looks is his stoic demeanor and strong sense of duty, and how well he conveys his strong initial attraction to Nynaeve, and the conflict with his duties those feelings engender for him.

[Harldin]

2 hours ago, Samma3l said:

If this was hos own show i wouldent care at all, but the characters already exist and as such you kinda have to follow it, specially on the main characters/characters who are in the story the most

And sure Fains skin colour dont really matter in the end just a point

Some characters have things that kinda characterize them, and to remove those characterizations it kinda destroys those characters

 

While WOT has a large Fan Base, it’s nowhere big enough to carry a TV show. The Producers have to make it appeal to a lot of people who have never read the books, many who have not even heard of the books. A very large percentage of viewers will not care what Skin Colour or race is portrayed in the books, because they will never read them, a-la GOT. Yes this will mean that 15-20% of book fans will not watch the show a-la GOT but they will be dwarfed by the number of new fans and new Book readers, if they get the story right. 
I totally disagree that any of the casting points towards Rafe not getting the little things right. 

[imlad]

7 hours ago, Samma3l said:

I think it´ s important, as i said, if you read what i wrote, it´ s about details and to me details matters and if you ignore large details like that you will in the end ignore the smaller details.

Just look at the witcher series, alot of details were ignored specially when it came to the characters and it´ s a fucking mess and avarage at best, but who cares right, not that important.....stupid thing to say

 

Superfluous details like skin color, eye color, and hair color matter not at all outside of Rand and his similarity to the Aiel. The details with Rand are the only ones that have any plot relevance. There is no plot thread hinging on Lan's eye color, or on Fain's skin color. Nor is there any plot that relies upon the skin/hair/eye color of anyone other than Rand.

 

Get over your superficial nitpicking of details that have no real bearing on the story. Concern yourself more with "can the actor chosen perform the part they were cast for better than anyone else that auditioned?" That is what is important here, not matching up every character perfectly to their physical description in the books. If that was the primary objective in the show, Rafe would be screwed, because I'm pretty sure there aren't many ~20 year old men with broad shoulders that stand 6'5"/6'6" tall with grey eyes and red hair (or blond with a red dye job) that can act well enough to be number one or two on the call sheet, and handle the demands that the role of Rand calls for down the road. Mostly because there really aren't that many men that fit that physical description, and very very few of those men have gone into acting. And Perrin? Hell, Jordan describes him as being more bulky and muscular than freaking Dwayne Johnson! How many guys with that build that stand 6'2" can act well enough to portray Perrin do you think there are?

 

Are you willing to sacrifice acting ability just for physical appearances? If so, then you really want the show to fail, because bad acting is a sure fire way to get the show cancelled after one season due to poor viewer ratings. So use the brain evolution gave you and get over the superficialities.

 

And none of those details are "large details" at all. They are small, minute details. A large detail would be Rand being tall, or Perrin being fairly strong looking, or them being from a small remote village. Or Lan and Moiraine being strangers who come into town dressed nicer than anyone had seen before, with Lan wearing a strange color changing cloak.

 

Seriously, your priorities are considerably frakked, mate.

Edited June 28, 2020 by imlad

[Adventures In Oosquai]

I was a member of this forum a billion years ago, long forgot my log-in, and quite frankly, I have kept the WoT on the shelf since I finished two read-throughs for AMoL at release.  With the TV show becoming closer to a thing, I got curious and dipped back in.  I'm in the first third of the The Dragon Reborn, and decided to check out the old forums, and this thread interested me.  I think a lot of the contributions sound interesting (save the one suggestion that Moraine come back early.  Love the character, but no way.  Deeply screws with Rand's arc, and it was such a triumphant event when she strode into that tent.  Such a goose bump moment.  It was worth the decade-plus long wait.  So good.)

 

As for what I would like to see in the tv show: don't skimp on the Maidens.  They will translate to TV well.  They are badasses.  They are funny.  They are self-aware (how can you not love a crew who actively cheer on those who burn them the best with insults.)   Rand's terrible handling of them was good storytelling.  So please, give them their full due.

 

As for what needs to be tempered, is well...  ...Nynaeve's temper.  If she is chewing rocks in almost every scene, it will get old quick in 1-hour episodes.  God help her if they mention her beating disagreeable people with her stick, or 'dosing them with sheep's tongue root' when she is off camera.  They don't need to gut her personality, but crank it back some, or she will be a roundly despised character.  The braid tugging is prone to get old super quick if over done.  I don't think RJ handled her character all that great to begin with, and while she did eventually develop, to me it was a loooooong static line before a sudden spike in her arc.  She didn't have an arc.  She had a hockey stick.  While it won't be Joffrey level, I'm afraid the hate will be real.  She is too important of a character for people to groan when she is on screen.

 

Lastly, slight OT, but let me get the casting thing off my chest.  I do think some people are getting a bit overly virtue-signally about the whole thing.  From the books, and the interview played at the end of the first few books, I was convinced The Two Rivers was rural England.  Caemlyn is Camelot/London.  So of course, fair complexions was in my mind's eye.  I think the same goes for a lot of people.  With every book adaptation comes that jarring moment when the screen does not portray what has been the brain's portrayal. Now consider the brain has had 30 years to cement that, yeah some people are going to think this is off.   Regardless of what the difference is, some book readers always get rabid about how it's different on the screen. I'd just request others not be so quick to scream 'bigotry!'  That's probably not it.  Besides, if the product bears out that the casting was done well, none of it will matter to anyone sane anyway. 

[Mierin1979]

I’m sure this is obvious, but please take input from people who have read the book series through 20 times.  It takes that long to get to know the characters (really).  Love the casting so far.  Can’t wait to see who is Verin!   

[johnnysd]

34 minutes ago, Mierin1979 said:

I’m sure this is obvious, but please take input from people who have read the book series through 20 times.  It takes that long to get to know the characters (really).  Love the casting so far.  Can’t wait to see who is Verin!   

 

Too bad Angela Lansbury is 94 she would have been perfect for the role in her MSW days

[johnnysd]

Also to Rafe: Please have WOTOP tell us who is playing Elayne, Min and Aviendha (I think she is the surprise Aiel)

[Harldin]

54 minutes ago, Adventures In Oosquai said:

I was a member of this forum a billion years ago, long forgot my log-in, and quite frankly, I have kept the WoT on the shelf since I finished two read-throughs for AMoL at release.  With the TV show becoming closer to a thing, I got curious and dipped back in.  I'm in the first third of the The Dragon Reborn, and decided to check out the old forums, and this thread interested me.  I think a lot of the contributions sound interesting (save the one suggestion that Moraine come back early.  Love the character, but no way.  Deeply screws with Rand's arc, and it was such a triumphant event when she strode into that tent.  Such a goose bump moment.  It was worth the decade-plus long wait.  So good.)

 

As for what I would like to see in the tv show: don't skimp on the Maidens.  They will translate to TV well.  They are badasses.  They are funny.  They are self-aware (how can you not love a crew who actively cheer on those who burn them the best with insults.)   Rand's terrible handling of them was good storytelling.  So please, give them their full due.

 

As for what needs to be tempered, is well...  ...Nynaeve's temper.  If she is chewing rocks in almost every scene, it will get old quick in 1-hour episodes.  God help her if they mention her beating disagreeable people with her stick, or 'dosing them with sheep's tongue root' when she is off camera.  They don't need to gut her personality, but crank it back some, or she will be a roundly despised character.  The braid tugging is prone to get old super quick if over done.  I don't think RJ handled her character all that great to begin with, and while she did eventually develop, to me it was a loooooong static line before a sudden spike in her arc.  She didn't have an arc.  She had a hockey stick.  While it won't be Joffrey level, I'm afraid the hate will be real.  She is too important of a character for people to groan when she is on screen.

 

Lastly, slight OT, but let me get the casting thing off my chest.  I do think some people are getting a bit overly virtue-signally about the whole thing.  From the books, and the interview played at the end of the first few books, I was convinced The Two Rivers was rural England.  Caemlyn is Camelot/London.  So of course, fair complexions was in my mind's eye.  I think the same goes for a lot of people.  With every book adaptation comes that jarring moment when the screen does not portray what has been the brain's portrayal. Now consider the brain has had 30 years to cement that, yeah some people are going to think this is off.   Regardless of what the difference is, some book readers always get rabid about how it's different on the screen. I'd just request others not be so quick to scream 'bigotry!'  That's probably not it.  Besides, if the product bears out that the casting was done well, none of it will matter to anyone sane anyway. 

Absolutely 100% agree on the Maidens, don’t hold back at all, they are probably the best all Female warrior society in all fiction. I think they need to soften a few things with Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne, make them a little bit more likeable, don’t go overboard but just not so bitchy. Don’t dare touch Aviendha, Jordan got her perfect. 
 

Totally agree on the casting at this stage but i want to see them playing there rolls before i will say its good or not.

 

The biggest issues with Min and all the Trakands is they only have short Cameos in the first book and Aviendha is not there at all and Elayne and Min don’t really feature until the 2nd half of book 2. That will make casting them more difficult.

Edited July 1, 2020 by Harldin

[johnnysd]

1 minute ago, Harldin said:

Absolutely 100% agree on the Maidens, don’t hold back at all, they are probably the best all Female warrior society in all fiction. I think they need to soften a few things with Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne, make them a little bit more likeable, don’t go overboard but just not so bitchy. Don’t dare touch Aviendha, Jordan got her perfect. 
 

Totally agree on the casting at this stage but i want to see them playing there rolls before i will say its good or not.

 

I think it will be easy with Nynaeve as she does a lot of big hearted things that we will see on TV, whereas in the books it is surrounded by scowls, sniffs and braid pulling.

 

Elayne is a little trickier since early she acts like the royalty she is outside of Rand.

 

We will have a hint when we see the first trailer. How exciting with that be. Possibly around Christmas?

[Harldin]

11 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

 

I think it will be easy with Nynaeve as she does a lot of big hearted things that we will see on TV, whereas in the books it is surrounded by scowls, sniffs and braid pulling.

11 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

 

Elayne is a little trickier since early she acts like the royalty she is outside of Rand.

 

We will have a hint when we see the first trailer. How exciting with that be. Possibly around Christmas?

I don’t know if you watch Naeblis on YT but he done a video yesterday in which he brings up a very good point about casting actors for cameos in season one then expecting them back full time in subsequent Seasons and he postulates that we may not see Min and the Trakands in S1. 
Trailer, your guess is as good as mine, but they haven’t finished filming S1 yet and we still don’t have any conformation as to when it will air, so they won’t even put together a proper Trailer yet, a very short Teaser in the next few months if Amazon announces a 2021 release may happen later in the year, maybe something like the WOT logo with the Words Wheel of Time coming 2021. 

Edited July 2, 2020 by Harldin

[johnnysd]

Just now, Harldin said:

 

I don’t know if you watch Naeblis on YT but he done a video yesterday in which he brings up a very good point about casting actors for cameos in season one then expecting them back full time in subsequent Seasons and he postulates that we may not see Min and the Trakands in S1. 
Trailer, your guess is as good as mine, but they haven’t finished filming S1 yet and we still don’t have any conformation as to when it will air, so they won’t even put together a proper Trailer yet, a very short Teaser in the next few months if Amazon announces a 2021 release may happen later in the year, maybe something like the WOT logo with the Words Wheel of Time coming 2021. 

 

Rafe has already confirmed Min is in Season 1. Cutting Elayne in Camelyn would be lame but with the expanded role of Logain it might happen.

[mistborn82]

You need Elayne in S1, in caemlyn for starters, either the scene in the garden, a public gentling of Logain or both. The garden also establishes Elayne as less than a fully pliant noble teenager.

[Harldin]

2 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

You need Elayne in S1, in caemlyn for starters, either the scene in the garden, a public gentling of Logain or both. The garden also establishes Elayne as less than a fully pliant noble teenager.

This keeps getting back to adaptation issues, its easy for the Author to type out a scene, add as many new Characters as they like, but far harder for a Showrunner to add that scene and those characters to a TV show. There are 6 important characters who have Cameos in Caemlyn in EOTW but only 2 do anything of real importance to the overall story, Elayne meeting Rand and Elaida’s foretelling. 
 

Yes i would love to see the whole Palace scene but i am also realistic that, this could result in a number of different actors playing those roles down the line.