Something I never understood about Rand...

[Dagon Thyne]

People always attribute Rand's effect on the land to him being Ta'veren, but that doesn't quite make since.  Ta'veren effect odds.  They can't make something that is impossible happen.  For example, Mat can effect how a dice is rolled because it's purely ods, but he has less effect on cards because it's less based on odds because a person is doing the shuffling and each person might shuffle different.  So the odds change from person to person.

 

Rand's connection to the land literally makes dead things come back to life.  Like the apple tree in the prologue of....I forget which one it was in.  

 

Rand literally changes reality,  That can't be because of him being a Ta'veren.  I always had a theory that Rand and Ishy were literal analogues to Jesus and the Anti-Christ.  Each with some part of their either the creator or the dark one's power.  So I think Rand's effect on the land and especially his ability to directly and purposely alter reality to completely recreate the DO's prison is because he somehow has the ability to tap into a small part of the creator's power.

[Liitha]

i thougth that had to do with what we in rp labeled uncommon luck talent (the dices that is) 

 

also to which degree you affect the patern hasnt that to do in part with how strong a ta'veren you are

 

the stronger you are the more you can affect it, also personality and skill influence how it works so it doesnt work the same for every ta'veren

 

and rand is considered to be a very very strong ta'veren

Edited October 5, 2019 by Liitha

[Taymist]

Ta'veren don't simply effect odds though. They influence life threads to create change. They're a focal point for ta'maral'ailen; correcting the Wheel when the weave begins to drift away from the Pattern it's supposed to be following.

They seem to impact the Pattern based on their own personalities and skills, as Lii mentioned. Perrin's ta'veren role seems to be his ability to hold sway over people, so they do /say / react to things they otherwise wouldn't. Mat, on the other hand, does, as you say, twist the laws of chance. That tends to be limited to his immediate environs rather than widespread. 

Rand, however, being incredibly strong, causes lots of unpredictable / improbable things to occur, from throwing the laws of chance out of whack to causing an apple tree to regenerate. It's out of his control, covering anything from a small, local area to being spread much further afield.
 

[Sabio]

Remember what Moiraine said "The Dragon is one with the land and the land is one with the dragon".  Some of it like the apple trees isn't just him being a Ta'veren it's him being the dragon also.  Being the dragon means Rand has a strong connection to the land and the land reacts to him.  BS had said he was trying to avoid Rand being jesus thing, so some of the things like his meeting with Tuon before the Last Battle was him using the growth song and not any power.  Rand said the pattern is balance.  So with the DO so strong and influencing the evil stuff towards the end, Rand's Ta'vern things no longer were creating bad stuff like before.  All his Ta'vernness was simply making good stuff happen.

[SinisterDeath]

One way I look at it, is that Rand is like a focal point of bubbles.

While the DO probably can't direct bubbles of evil, they represent the chaos and entropy that is the DO infecting the very fabric of reality. (The DO is the Hotplate, the Pattern is the pot of Water, and the Bubbles of Evil are the boiling water.)

Inversely, Rand being Ta'Varen, and the Dragon, which is based on Arthurian mythology. Rand's Physical and Mental health are quite literally tied to the land. How he is doing largely effects how much good or evil is going on with his Ta'Varen'ess warping reality.

This clearly changes at the end of the novel when Rand basically pulls a Kwisatz Haderach (Bene Gesserit), Neo (Matrix) and effectively purges himself of madness/sickness, just by making it happen.

[Dagon Thyne]

That still doesn't explain himhaving the ability to literally alter reality at will, like he did when he fully created the DO's prison, which exists outside of the pattern.  He literally repaired the bore, to the point that it was as if it never existed. Even a Ta'veren wouldn't that much control over the pattern, and that can't be attributed to his connection to the land,since the bore was not a physical part of the world, but a hole in time and space.  

[SinisterDeath]

55 minutes ago, Dagon Thyne said:

That still doesn't explain himhaving the ability to literally alter reality at will, like he did when he fully created the DO's prison, which exists outside of the pattern.  He literally repaired the bore, to the point that it was as if it never existed. Even a Ta'veren wouldn't that much control over the pattern, and that can't be attributed to his connection to the land,since the bore was not a physical part of the world, but a hole in time and space.  

It does kinda though. 

 

His base Ta'veren power, connected his health to the land. He couldn't control his physical or mental health throughout most of the series, thus he couldn't control how he affected the land.

 

After Dragonmount, that all changed.
He starts to exhibit greater control over how he affects reality around him. This comes to a head during the final battle, when he's able to weave the pattern itself.

 

Re: The bore.

The bore may not be a "physical" part of the world, but it does exists everywhere and nowhere at the same time.
 

All that means is that the final battle, didn't have to take place at Shayol Ghul.. even though it had to. The pattern is thinnest at the site of the bore, but it's also not. 

 

The very fact that the bore/DO's prison is able to interact with reality, means that reality is able to interact with the DO's prison... Before the breaking, Channelers were able to pierce the DO's prison, which existed outside of reality.. This hints that his prison exists, and doesn't exist in our reality at the same time. Part of the final battle over destroying the DO basically says that the DO existing, influences reality in small ways (Chaos/Entropy) even from within that prison...

 

Uggh, I feel like I've rambled enough for today.

[Dagon Thyne]

22 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

It does kinda though. 

 

His base Ta'veren power, connected his health to the land. He couldn't control his physical or mental health throughout most of the series, thus he couldn't control how he affected the land.

 

After Dragonmount, that all changed.
He starts to exhibit greater control over how he affects reality around him. This comes to a head during the final battle, when he's able to weave the pattern itself.

 

Re: The bore.

The bore may not be a "physical" part of the world, but it does exists everywhere and nowhere at the same time.
 

All that means is that the final battle, didn't have to take place at Shayol Ghul.. even though it had to. The pattern is thinnest at the site of the bore, but it's also not. 

 

The very fact that the bore/DO's prison is able to interact with reality, means that reality is able to interact with the DO's prison... Before the breaking, Channelers were able to pierce the DO's prison, which existed outside of reality.. This hints that his prison exists, and doesn't exist in our reality at the same time. Part of the final battle over destroying the DO basically says that the DO existing, influences reality in small ways (Chaos/Entropy) even from within that prison...

 

Uggh, I feel like I've rambled enough for today.

Except the bore is a hole in space/time.   It's not part of the land.  There wasn't a literal hole in the ground that leads to the dark one's prison.  It's literally a rip in reality.  The Dark One exists outside of reality.  He exists outside of time and space, and Rand literally repaired that hole in space time.    

 

And please don't mention the pit of doom  The pit of doom already existed.  Shayol ghul was originally a volcanic island, and the magma chamber that became known as the Pit of Doom already existed prior to the bore being created.  It just so happened that the weakest part of reality, where the Aes Sedai broke through, was inside the volcano.  

Edited October 7, 2019 by Dagon Thyne

[SinisterDeath]

32 minutes ago, Dagon Thyne said:

Except the bore is a hole in space/time.   It's not part of the land. 

The land is part of space-time. It's part of the tapestry that makes up the weave/pattern.

The bore is a hole that weave/pattern.. Once that hole was created, it started interacting with the land, and the land started to interact with it.

 

38 minutes ago, Dagon Thyne said:

And please don't mention the pit of doom  The pit of doom already existed.  Shayol ghul was originally a volcanic island, and the magma chamber that became known as the Pit of Doom already existed prior to the bore being created.  It just so happened that the weakest part of reality, where the Aes Sedai broke through, was inside the volcano.  

What's that got to do with anything?

There were previous RJ Q&A's where he basically said that the bore physically took place there. But it didn't have to. Nor does sealing it have to take place there, it just does.

The best way to look at the DO's prison is like D&D's pocket dimensions.

He exists outside of the current dimension/plane.

The Bore is the doorway. Reality can interact with said doorway. It can open and close it.

 

But unlike D&D's pocket dimensions, that doorway exists across the entire weave, which is why the DO can interact with things beyond just the Bore.

The entire pattern is being stretched apart. It being Thinnest at Shayol Ghul is largely inconsequential.

[Sabio]

If this helps the companion states "during the AOL Shayol Ghul was an idyllic island in a cool sea, a favorite escape for those who enjoyed the rustic.  After the breaking it became a mountain in the blasted lands, where the DO's prison was located.  More precisely Shayol Ghul was sort of a focus point, a place where the DO's prison lay close to the world - there was a thinness in the pattern, allowing the bore to be detected - so the focus of the DO's strength lay there."  So the mountain/Lava came after the breaking.  Shayol Ghul also wasn't the place the Aes Sedai orginally drilled a hole into his prison.  Shayol Ghul was simply the place where it was easiest to detect the bore, so it was the place easiest for the DO to influence the world/ speak to him/ or reach the bore to seal his prison.

[solarz]

The apples and grass thing is not a Ta'veren effect, it is a form of treesinging practiced by the Aiel during the Age of Legends. Rand gained that ability when he regained LTT's memories.

[Elendir]

You forget that he can use both aspect of power one power as well as true power, energy as well as antienergy.

If you use two-particle approach, the rules change in compare to one particle approach.

 

1.       One half of one power = miracle

2.       Both half of one power = great miracle

3.       One power + true power = god like miracle

 

Dark one as well as his prison was power (energy) related. It means point 3 is enough for creation of prison.

Rand weaving of pattern after battle is more interesting or what he did. There is huge step from weaving energy to weaving matter.

[agreddon]

On 10/9/2019 at 2:52 PM, solarz said:

The apples and grass thing is not a Ta'veren effect, it is a form of treesinging practiced by the Aiel during the Age of Legends. Rand gained that ability when he regained LTT's memories.

Didn't Brandon say that Rand didn't know the song and that the Tinker's wouldn't have been able to learn it anyways, though?  I saw that as being just a little bit over the top.

[Sabio]

Rand knew the growing song not the song the tinkers were looking for.  BS confirmed the song the Tinkers were seeking didn't exist.  The growing song is what enabled him to make the place bloom when he met Tuon.

[Dagon Thyne]

The Tinkers are not looking for one partitcular song.  They are looking for ALL of the songs they sang during the age of legends.  They remembers singing in the age of legends, and misremembers it as a single song, and wanted to find that song again.    

[solarz]

On 10/29/2019 at 9:05 AM, agreddon said:

Didn't Brandon say that Rand didn't know the song and that the Tinker's wouldn't have been able to learn it anyways, though?  I saw that as being just a little bit over the top.

 

The Tinkers forgot their history. This was revealed in the Rhuidean vision in book 4.

 

In the prologue of EOTW, LTT asked if Ishamael had "the Voice", which is basically the human version of Treesinging.

[Sabio]

BS did say that the song the Tinkers are looking for doesn't exist.  To be honest they aren't even sure what they are seeking anymore as Solarz pointed out they have forgotten their own history.  

[mistborn82]

I was going to mention as Egwene takes note that he seemed to be softly singing, I forget exactly when that was.

[Dagon Thyne]

On 10/31/2019 at 3:48 PM, solarz said:

 

The Tinkers forgot their history. This was revealed in the Rhuidean vision in book 4.

 

In the prologue of EOTW, LTT asked if Ishamael had "the Voice", which is basically the human version of Treesinging.

I always thought that he was asking if Ishy could sing.  Never realized it was an actual type of singing.  I figured that singing was just traditional in the culture that LTT and his family took part in, and he was asking Ishy if he could sing and wanted to take part.

[SwordoftheThousandLakes]

Also don't forget the angreal and sa'angreal. These imbue various powers that can do things like bend / shape reality and alter things within the land and sky. Not all characters with these powers make it known to others.

[Dagon Thyne]

No they don't.  All angreal and sa'angreal do is enhance one's own ability to channel, and allow them to use more of the one power than they would be able to on their own.

 

It's ta'angreal which has actual uses, and can actually do thing with the one power.  For example, the flying machines in the AOL were powered by ta'angreal which generated electricity, literally turning the one power into electrical current to power the machines.  

Edited November 23, 2019 by Dagon Thyne

[Dagon Thyne]

On 10/5/2019 at 8:59 AM, Taymist said:

Ta'veren don't simply effect odds though. They influence life threads to create change. They're a focal point for ta'maral'ailen; correcting the Wheel when the weave begins to drift away from the Pattern it's supposed to be following.

They seem to impact the Pattern based on their own personalities and skills, as Lii mentioned. Perrin's ta'veren role seems to be his ability to hold sway over people, so they do /say / react to things they otherwise wouldn't. Mat, on the other hand, does, as you say, twist the laws of chance. That tends to be limited to his immediate environs rather than widespread. 

Rand, however, being incredibly strong, causes lots of unpredictable / improbable things to occur, from throwing the laws of chance out of whack to causing an apple tree to regenerate. It's out of his control, covering anything from a small, local area to being spread much further afield.
 

But something has to actually be possible for a ta'veren to cause it to happen.  They can't literally make the impossible happen.  For example Rand didn't cause the bags of grain to become unspoiled, he simply effected the odds that the remaning bags hadn't spoiled yet.  

 

Another ta'veren, no matter how powerful they were ta'varen, wouldn't have caused the dead apple tree to come back to life.  Only Rand could have done that.  I don't think even someone more ta'varen than rand would have made it happen.  I think it's specifically an effect caused by the Dragon Reborn, which isn't caused by him being ta'veren.  

Edited November 23, 2019 by Dagon Thyne

[SinisterDeath]

On 11/23/2019 at 12:24 AM, Dagon Thyne said:

But something has to actually be possible for a ta'veren to cause it to happen.  They can't literally make the impossible happen.  For example Rand didn't cause the bags of grain to become unspoiled, he simply effected the odds that the remaning bags hadn't spoiled yet. 

Schrödinger's cat. 
Physics Easter Egg from RJ, whom had a degree in Physics.

 

Quote

Another ta'veren, no matter how powerful they were ta'varen, wouldn't have caused the dead apple tree to come back to life.  Only Rand could have done that.  I don't think even someone more ta'varen than rand would have made it happen.  I think it's specifically an effect caused by the Dragon Reborn, which isn't caused by him being ta'veren.  

Unless I'm thinking of another event. He didn't revive a dead tree. He walked through an Orchard, and reversed the DO's taint on the apples. Apples which were immediately rotting as soon as they were ripe.

 

You should really check out Theoryland's interview database.

https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=ta'veren

Quote

AZRAL HANAN (2 AUGUST 2010)

Why is the Dragon 'one with the Land'? Is it just due to him being ta'veren or is there more to it?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (2 AUGUST 2010)

More to it. More about being the Dragon than being ta'veren. Who he is.

Ta'Veren is just part of it, but it's not the only reason events like that happen.

 

Quote

QUESTION

Someone else asked if Rand's internal state of affairs was affecting the world around him.

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Brandon said there are two things going on—ta'veren and the Fisher King prophecy which says the Dragon is tied directly to the land. He says it seems to Rand that more bad stuff was happening in The Gathering Storm but that this could be either just Rand's perception or what is really going on. We should remember that ta'veren is supposed to be 50/50—an extra equal amount of good and bad going on. He would not tell us at this point whether there was really more bad stuff happening in The Gathering Storm or whether its Rand's perception as there was purposefully very few viewpoints from Rand himself in Towers of Midnight. Like the third book The Dragon Reborn, Towers of Midnight is meant to step away from Rand and view him from the viewpoints of others.

Someone also asked if Rand's ta'veren nature would affect people on the other side of an open gateway. Brandon said that the Pattern considers that Rand is where he is and not on the other side of the gateway, so he would not affect a place just by having a gateway open there and not actually being there.

Now reference back to my original comments.

His physical and mental health are both literally tied to the land, in adition to being a Ta'Veren.
It's something unique to Rand, like being a wolf brother is unique to Perrin, or being a lucky gambler is unique to Mat.

Rand is literally tied to the land.

His Ta'Veren nature warps the probability of crops spoiling or producing an abundance. It tips the balance of harvested grain spoiling, infested with rats, or remaining pristine. 

 

Similar, Mat's Nature as Ta'Veren warps probability of Odds, and Perrin's ability to sway people to his side. (Rand does both, only with brute Force.) 

Ta'Veren nature typically warps probability in the Ta'Veren's favor.

I described his effect on the land as similar to a bubble of evil, because unlike Ta'Veren, a bubble of evil defies probability and creates the impossible.

 

We have a few things going on here.

1) The land didn't truly start to go bad, until after Rand's injury. It's hard to say, was the DO actively making the land rot? Or was he using Rand's connection to the land, to make the land Rot? Or both?

 

2) DO's bubbles of evil. I don't know if we know if the DO can control them, or make them do what he wants. But these things caused all kinds of havoc on the land. I'm sure plenty of bubbles caused grain to spontaneously rot.
 

3) Rand's Ta'Veren nature, leads to weird things happening with the land. Crops suddenly not producing, to crops unnaturally bountiful. Grain spoiling for no reason, rats just devouring. To Grain that got flooded is perfectly fine. 

Wherever Rand went, weird things happened like that, and It wasn't always 50/50 good/bad..
 

4) When Rand was basically reborn on Dragonmount, his physical and mental state were effectively healed.
The land was healed. It's entirely plausible that the land itself started to heal. But the damage was already done. 

Where Rand Walked after Dragonmount, the Land around him, almost in a Bubble of Good, did the impossible, and full-stop reversed/healed the damage dealt. 

 

Do we know how much of that was Ta'Veren? How much was this land-connection? Probably not. There was a reason I mentioned Rand and King Arthur.. Whom was also the Fisher King.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher_King

Quote

There are slight hints in the early versions that his kingdom and lands suffers as he does, and 20th-century scholars have suggested his impotence affecting the fertility of the land and reducing it to a barren wasteland.

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by SinisterDeath

[Dagon Thyne]

10 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Schrödinger's cat. 
Physics Easter Egg from RJ, whom had a degree in Physics.

 

Unless I'm thinking of another event. He didn't revive a dead tree. He walked through an Orchard, and reversed the DO's taint on the apples. Apples which were immediately rotting as soon as they were ripe.

 

You should really check out Theoryland's interview database.

https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=ta'veren

Ta'Veren is just part of it, but it's not the only reason events like that happen.

 

Now reference back to my original comments.

His physical and mental health are both literally tied to the land, in adition to being a Ta'Veren.
It's something unique to Rand, like being a wolf brother is unique to Perrin, or being a lucky gambler is unique to Mat.

Rand is literally tied to the land.

His Ta'Veren nature warps the probability of crops spoiling or producing an abundance. It tips the balance of harvested grain spoiling, infested with rats, or remaining pristine. 

 

Similar, Mat's Nature as Ta'Veren warps probability of Odds, and Perrin's ability to sway people to his side. (Rand does both, only with brute Force.) 

Ta'Veren nature typically warps probability in the Ta'Veren's favor.

I described his effect on the land as similar to a bubble of evil, because unlike Ta'Veren, a bubble of evil defies probability and creates the impossible.

 

We have a few things going on here.

1) The land didn't truly start to go bad, until after Rand's injury. It's hard to say, was the DO actively making the land rot? Or was he using Rand's connection to the land, to make the land Rot? Or both?

 

2) DO's bubbles of evil. I don't know if we know if the DO can control them, or make them do what he wants. But these things caused all kinds of havoc on the land. I'm sure plenty of bubbles caused grain to spontaneously rot.
 

3) Rand's Ta'Veren nature, leads to weird things happening with the land. Crops suddenly not producing, to crops unnaturally bountiful. Grain spoiling for no reason, rats just devouring. To Grain that got flooded is perfectly fine. 

Wherever Rand went, weird things happened like that, and It wasn't always 50/50 good/bad..
 

4) When Rand was basically reborn on Dragonmount, his physical and mental state were effectively healed.
The land was healed. It's entirely plausible that the land itself started to heal. But the damage was already done. 

Where Rand Walked after Dragonmount, the Land around him, almost in a Bubble of Good, did the impossible, and full-stop reversed/healed the damage dealt. 

 

Do we know how much of that was Ta'Veren? How much was this land-connection? Probably not. There was a reason I mentioned Rand and King Arthur.. Whom was also the Fisher King.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher_King

 

 

 

In the prologue of TGS, when the farmer is discussing the coming Last Battle.  He notices that an apple tree which had died and had no fruit was suddently full of fresh, plump apples, unless I misread the entire prologue.

 

Ta'veren effect odds, they can make something that is not likely to happen happeb more often, or something that was all but ensured happen much less.  Like Mat's gambling.  They could cause someone to die in a freak accidently that would normally not have even hurt them, or cause someone to survive a an accident that would have almost certainly killed them.

 

But they can't cause the impossible to happen.  But even there is any chance at all that something could happen, they can make it happen.  

 

Mat seems to have far more control, with his ta'veren nature effecting his gambling based on his needs, like causing him to lose when he is in danger of something becoming angry or suspicious of his wins.  But it still requires at least a slight possibily.  

Edited November 27, 2019 by Dagon Thyne

[SinisterDeath]

5 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

In the prologue of TGS, when the farmer is discussing the coming Last Battle.  He notices that an apple tree which had died and had no fruit was suddently full of fresh, plump apples, unless I misread the entire prologue.

I'll have to look that one up. The only reference to apple trees I found was about an Orchard.

 

Quote

Ta'veren effect odds, they can make something that is not likely to happen happeb more often, or something that was all but ensured happen much less.  Like Mat's gambling.  They could cause someone to die in a freak accidently that would normally not have even hurt them, or cause someone to survive a an accident that would have almost certainly killed them.

 

But they can't cause the impossible to happen.  But even there is any chance at all that something could happen, they can make it happen.  

 

Mat seems to have far more control, with his ta'veren nature effecting his gambling based on his needs, like causing him to lose when he is in danger of something becoming angry or suspicious of his wins.  But it still requires at least a slight possibily.  

Yes... But did you read the rest of my post? I wasn't saying that was all Ta'Veren....