Should Elayne take over Mins role? Spoilers!

[Guest Mark R Mitchell]

Most people, including me, love Mins character, but she does sort of spoil the harem theme by being Rand’s steady girlfriend. Also in the books Elayne and Rand have a ridiculously short amount of time together. 

Then let’s look at Elaynes story. You could probably lose it all and not notice. So what if Mins story became Elayne’s? And min sadly becomes part of cutting that needs to happen to turn these huge books into a tv series?

[DemandredFO]

That wouldn't work as Elayne is the daughter heir and then queen so unless you reconfigure the whole Andor story. There's a whole thread what to keep and what to drop which you should look at but I think with other cutting, they'll be room to keep Min if they want. Before you look at thread, I'll just suggest to you that there are books worth of material no longer there as everything overdescribed will now be visual.

[Jaglover]

As above there are vast reams of the books you can cut out without affecting the core story.

 

Also not only does Min have a key role in the story but Elayne does as well. Her Andor plot dragged on well too long but before that her teaming up with Nynaeve (and later Aviendha, Birgitte and Matt) gives you most of the more light hearted moments in the middle books. Just rereading Crown of swords at the moment and those chapters have been the most entertaining so far. 

[Dagon Thyne]

I think that they will cut out Min loving Rand, and make it more of a plantonic thing.  While turning Elayne & Aviendha into a three way relationship where Rand loves both of them, and they him, and they are in love with each other as well.  (which will make the 4 page bath scenes far more interesting).  They've already talked about the bringing same sex relationships more into the forefront.  They was also speculation about Egwene and Elayne being pillowfriends during their time as novices.  

 

As for Min, I think they will turn her into more of a guide.  She will be driven by the pattern to aid Rand.  And will work to keep him "down to earth" the same as she does in the books.  But the romantic aspects will be cut out.  

[DemandredFO]

I really they'd left pillow friends on the cutting room floor but as they're obviously not, I just hope it's done tastefully, not a sex-measuring contest with GOT.

[Jaglover]

43 minutes ago, DemandredFO said:

I really they'd left pillow friends on the cutting room floor but as they're obviously not, I just hope it's done tastefully, not a sex-measuring contest with GOT.

 

I don't see why?, it is part of the WOT universe after all and entirely understandable given the circumstances of Aes Sedai and their trainees. Just because it is included doesn't mean they have to make it Lesbian porn after all, could be just a few meaningful looks and kissing scenes  for all we know.

[Jaglover]

10 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

I think that they will cut out Min loving Rand, and make it more of a plantonic thing.  While turning Elayne & Aviendha into a three way relationship where Rand loves both of them, and they him, and they are in love with each other as well.  (which will make the 4 page bath scenes far more interesting).  They've already talked about the bringing same sex relationships more into the forefront.  They was also speculation about Egwene and Elayne being pillowfriends during their time as novices.  

 

As for Min, I think they will turn her into more of a guide.  She will be driven by the pattern to aid Rand.  And will work to keep him "down to earth" the same as she does in the books.  But the romantic aspects will be cut out.  

 

I don't see why really. If Rand can fall in love with two women why not three?. In fact three really highlights the bizarreness of the situation in regard to the pattern willing him to fall in love with three women to exactly the same degree. 

 

Also when reading you are really willing Min to be able to get to Rand and get her man. Not sure why some are happy to see Min short changed.  

[DemandredFO]

One character they will probably cut or kill early is Gawyn who serves absolutely no purpose after getting his butt kicked by Mat who's barely able to stand. Killing him in the tower fighting if done well could be much more effective than having him linger for 10 more books, accomplishing nothing and then dying a pointless death in a duel.

[solarz]

1 hour ago, DemandredFO said:

One character they will probably cut or kill early is Gawyn who serves absolutely no purpose after getting his butt kicked by Mat who's barely able to stand. Killing him in the tower fighting if done well could be much more effective than having him linger for 10 more books, accomplishing nothing and then dying a pointless death in a duel.

 

Hey, Gawyn getting killed is one of my favorite scenes in the series!

[DemandredFO]

Mine too, only after the rebellion he takes up space for more important events.

[Dagon Thyne]

6 hours ago, Jaglover said:

 

I don't see why really. If Rand can fall in love with two women why not three?. In fact three really highlights the bizarreness of the situation in regard to the pattern willing him to fall in love with three women to exactly the same degree. 

 

Also when reading you are really willing Min to be able to get to Rand and get her man. Not sure why some are happy to see Min short changed.  

Well, they said they want to take away the more "Patriachtic" aspects of their relationship.  In the books, it's three women who drudgingly decide to share the man they all love.    They want tu turn it into a more polyamorous relationship, and I don't see how they can have that with men, unless they rewrite her entire character and expand it.  

[DemandredFO]

I see your point about bizarre @Jagloverbut I don't see Min's relationship being romantic as truly necessary. Elayne is there to bind Andor and more to him, Aviendha is there for the Aiel, Min serves no real purpose in that way. Min was also the most reluctant I thought, in books read and commented about by nerds, we all know she fills the Cassandra role but most views won't know or care about that. Besides, until the docks he has Moiraine and who knows if they'll have her vanish? Although she really only vanishes for a few months but with the slowdown it feels much longer. He also has Nyneave, I just hope they don't demote her if they don't vanish Moiraine. Anyway, with the changes to Elayne and Aviendha, Rand have three beautiful women at his call, who may or may not be in love with each other, would be parody.

[Jaglover]

4 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

Well, they said they want to take away the more "Patriachtic" aspects of their relationship.  In the books, it's three women who drudgingly decide to share the man they all love.    They want tu turn it into a more polyamorous relationship, and I don't see how they can have that with men, unless they rewrite her entire character and expand it.  

I think it is only "patriarchal" if you choose to view it as such. All three women have fallen in love and want to be with Rand as a result. It is not as if it were a system of arranged marriages that ended up with one man and three women.

 

The Aiel, who are the only ones who practice polygamy that we see, are practically matriarchal in some of their customs. It is hard to hold it up as Patriarchal when it is the woman who proposes together with the whole concept of sister wives. 

 

To me it is a core part of the story and would be a shame if discarded for politicisation of the show.  Further to which I think that you root for Min to get to him more than the other three because she isn't super powered or a princess. Hence going back to her character being short changed if she just hangs around in the friend zone. 

[Carebear Sedai]

I can just imagine the headache adapting the Rand/Min romance would be for the show writers. All the think pieces they are sure to inspire... A way they can avoid the wrath of modern TV audiences is by vastly expanding her role beyond his link to humanity and the gf he nearly chokes to death (light, that one's gonna be trouble). On that note I wonder if they're gonna make changes to Ilyena, merge her with Latra perhaps, because the whole fridged women plot doesn't fly so well nowadays.

 

 

On 9/3/2019 at 12:41 PM, Jaglover said:

 

I don't see why really. If Rand can fall in love with two women why not three?. In fact three really highlights the bizarreness of the situation in regard to the pattern willing him to fall in love with three women to exactly the same degree. 

 

Also when reading you are really willing Min to be able to get to Rand and get her man. Not sure why some are happy to see Min short changed.  

 

I'm not sure how a fictional character gets shortchanged if a romantic relationship becomes a platonic one. Are friendships considered less worthy than romance? I used to ship Rand/Min in the books, didn't care for his other romances at all, but the idea of them having that bond become platonic is actually kind of thrilling. There aren't enough solid male/female friendships in the books and while Rand had a lot mentors, he rarely had his friends  close by. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Carebear Sedai

[Dagon Thyne]

4 hours ago, Carebear Sedai said:

I can just imagine the headache adapting the Rand/Min romance would be for the show writers. All the think pieces they are sure to inspire... A way they can avoid the wrath of modern TV audiences is by vastly expanding her role beyond his link to humanity and the gf he nearly chokes to death (light, that one's gonna be trouble). On that note I wonder if they're gonna make changes to Ilyena, merge her with Latra perhaps, because the whole fridged women plot doesn't fly so well nowadays.

 

 

 

I'm not sure how a fictional character gets shortchanged if a romantic relationship becomes a platonic one. Are friendships considered less worthy than romance? I used to ship Rand/Min in the books, didn't care for his other romances at all, but the idea of them having that bond become platonic is actually kind of thrilling. There aren't enough solid male/female friendships in the books and while Rand had a lot mentors, he rarely had his friends  close by. 

To be honest, I can only think of two male/female friendships in the books which are completely void of any hidden romantic feelings...  Moiraine/Lan, and Mat/Elayne ( I hope they leave the scenes where he teaches her to curse like a drunken sailor)

 

Even Perrin/Egwene in EOTW had hints that they both had feelings for each other to some degree.  

[Jaglover]

4 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

To be honest, I can only think of two male/female friendships in the books which are completely void of any hidden romantic feelings...  Moiraine/Lan, and Mat/Elayne ( I hope they leave the scenes where he teaches her to curse like a drunken sailor)

 

Even Perrin/Egwene in EOTW had hints that they both had feelings for each other to some degree.  

Mat/Birgitte is also platonic. Mat even has a long section when he thinks about how he thinks of Birgitte as if she were a man. 

[Rosemary_Sedai]

19 hours ago, Jaglover said:

Mat/Birgitte is also platonic. Mat even has a long section when he thinks about how he thinks of Birgitte as if she were a man. 

I'm not sure one of the few male/female friendships in the series being a guy who is only friends with a women because he thinks of her as an honorary dude, really disproves the point, there.

[solarz]

Why not keep Min and cut out Elayne and Aviendha instead?

 

Rand doesn't really need Aviendha to be tied to the Aiel, she can easily be replaced by a gaggle of Wise Ones.

 

Elayne really does nothing for Rand except argue with him at the Last Battle. Rand really did not have any political ties to Andor except a brief occupation period. You could take away the Rand/Elayne romance and nothing in the plot would change.

 

Min is the only romance partner for Rand that acts like a romantic interest throughout the series. She is his rock, his tie to humanity. Min was there when Rand was abducted by the Aes Sedai. Min was there when Rand went on the lam, and Min was there at Rand's darkest moments and still there when Rand returned from Dragonmount.

[Rosemary_Sedai]

Why is everyone so obsessed with cutting Min, out of all the characters in the books?

She seems to be the one that is coming up most often, despite the fact that she's one of the few character we know almost certainly that we ARE going to keep, given Rafe's comments on the love quadrangle (ie that the dynamics of the four will be expanded into broader polyamory, not cut down). 

[James al'Dylan]

I wouldn’t be surprised if they simply adopted a very gender ambiguous role for Min; even more so than in the books, and possibly to the point where they’re fully gender fluid. It would allow them to go lots of different ways with their and Rand’s relationship, possibly even changing significantly throughout the series. And let’s face it, Min does struggle to a certain degree through the books with identity. I can see Rand meeting someone in Baerlon who is a ‘boy’ or young man; then when we see them again (perhaps in TgH) they are identifying as a woman. I don’t think it’s being cynical to think the producers wouldn’t be keen to add more diversity. 

Edited September 17, 2019 by James al'Dylan

[Jaglover]

7 hours ago, James al'Dylan said:

I wouldn’t be surprised if they simply adopted a very gender ambiguous role for Min; even more so than in the books, and possibly to the point where they’re fully gender fluid. It would allow them to go lots of different ways with their and Rand’s relationship, possibly even changing significantly throughout the series. And let’s face it, Min does struggle to a certain degree through the books with identity. I can see Rand meeting someone in Baerlon who is a ‘boy’ or young man; then when we see them again (perhaps in TgH) they are identifying as a woman. I don’t think it’s being cynical to think the producers wouldn’t be keen to add more diversity. 

if they wanted the full set I suppose

 

in the books though Min is a pretty girl who likes dressing as a boy, probably more on practicality grounds than anything else. She has had past boyfriends before she met Rand. Given how confining female dress was at the time probably Min dresses closer to many current female readers than most of the rest of the female characters.

[Polskija]

I thought the way Min dresses had something to do with some bad experiences when she was younger. I think it's mentioned around the time she spends with the tower Aes Sedai that she doesn't want to give the impression she's pretty and fragile because iirc she was sexually harrassed when she was younger and she blames the dresses. 

 

EDIT: Which itself is an important topic, and would not require LGTBQ-subjects. 

Edited September 18, 2019 by Polskija

[Jaglover]

30 minutes ago, Polskija said:

I thought the way Min dresses had something to do with some bad experiences when she was younger. I think it's mentioned around the time she spends with the tower Aes Sedai that she doesn't want to give the impression she's pretty and fragile because iirc she was sexually harrassed when she was younger and she blames the dresses. 

EDIT: Which itself is an important topic, and would not require LGTBQ-subjects. 

Min gives us a very interesting perspective into a girl's life who isn't nobly born, superpowered or running around with a spear. I.E. the vast majority of women in Randland and yet some still think she's a prime candidate to be cut.

 

She did spend some time in a rough tavern as a tavern maid and her aunts come and get her out if I remember rightly, and I believe she did suffer sexual harassment so no it hasn't been all sweetness and light in her life. I interpret her wearing breeches as more refusing to be bound by convention than by traumatic experiences though. Clothing at that time was extremely confining for women with multiple layers of skirts that went down to the ankles and heavy lacing or even corsets for the upper body. Min wasn't going to put up with all that, but that doesn't mean she was the latest political fad of "transgender".

 

She is a heterosexual girl who likes horses and doesn't want to bound by outdated convention. Sounds like millions of western women to me who would be rather startled to be told they are "transgender"

Edited September 18, 2019 by Jaglover

[mistborn82]

@JagloverYou're absolutely right, transgender is a fad and I'm sure the people who are transgender only do it so they can be harassed, thrown out of their homes by so-called christian parents, likened to sexual predators by political figures or killed.

The producers are making the show their way and all the so-called fans who disagree with their direction on some form of bigoted grounds, can get up the money, buy the rights and recast everyone as a WASP.

[Jaglover]

1 hour ago, mistborn82 said:

The producers are making the show their way and all the so-called fans who disagree with their direction on some form of bigoted grounds, can get up the money, buy the rights and recast everyone as a WASP.

 

So any resemblance to the books will be coincidental then because I am curious what it was about the very many Min POV chapters that made you feel she was gender confused and in fact thought she was male.

 

Like many I came to WOT in the early to mid nineties from a time when TV shows and films were designed to be art rather than political manifestos.  

 

I still hope for an actual book adaptation but perhaps I am hoping in vain.