What to keep, what to drop?

[Pandemonium]

One group that needs to get either expanded or dropped is the Seafolk.  Other boat captains can take their place.  also, the kin could easily be the ones that studied the bowl of the winds.  although the bowl of the winds could also be dropped.  The whole role of of the coramoor was never fleshed out entirely and the sea folk pretty much disappeared in the last few books.  although I do remember that Aviendha had a vision of the sea folk turned land folk, simply known as the folk.  

[DragonFairy]

On 7/17/2019 at 11:41 AM, Pandemonium said:

One group that needs to get either expanded or dropped is the Seafolk.  Other boat captains can take their place.  also, the kin could easily be the ones that studied the bowl of the winds.  although the bowl of the winds could also be dropped.  The whole role of of the coramoor was never fleshed out entirely and the sea folk pretty much disappeared in the last few books.  although I do remember that Aviendha had a vision of the sea folk turned land folk, simply known as the folk.  

So of the two options, you seem to be more in favor of dropping the Seafolk? I think they are an interesting culture the would be better expanded than dropped. Not to mention, for those who are concerned about ethnic diversity, they would all be very dark skinned.

If they dropped the Bowl of the Winds they would have to come up with another way of dealing with the weather. Fixing the weather is important. It is the second time the Dark One used weather as a means to harm the world, and both times he was eventually his attempts were overcome.

[johnnysd2]

This may be controversial, but I think GoT ultimately taught us a strong lesson.  After 4 or 5 seasons the characters in GoT were different than the book characters and they were in different situations. All of the decisions to get to that point made sense.

 

But then, they spent the last couple seasons trying to fit those characters into the outline of an ending that matched the books.

 

And it did not work. AT ALL

 

Bran in the series was one of the dullest "stories" in the series, yet he winds up as King. That was not true to the characters in the series.

 

John's heritage was shoehorned in and was a total MacGuffin.

 

In the TV show, Sansa or Arya should have wound up on the Iron Throne. It would have made the most sense narratively. 

 

The show needed to stay true to the characters as they had become on the show, and not even try to follow the narrative from the books.

 

The same thing will happen with the WOT TV show. The writing and actors will bring new elements to the characters, and a couple seasons in will be distinct from their book counterparts, and as the seasons go on they will become more or less "inspired" by the books.

 

Because of this, I think the TV show can really only closely follow the books for maybe two or three seasons and then will need to start going their own direction while still hitting some of the main "events" of the books, but getting there differently.

 

At some point the show will need to be more true to the show than the books.

 

A few years ago I would have said differently, but then we wound up with Seasons 6, 7 and 8 of  GoT.

 

 

[DragonFairy]

Your point is well made, and I think all of us felt that to some degree, some more than others. But part of the problem was that the show outpaced the source material. Another problem was that D&D just apparently decided they could write the characters better than Martin did. As they were quoted saying, they did something because creatively to them it made sense, not because it made sense in the context of the larger story.

 

With WoT, the entire series has been written, so no worries about running out of source material. And who's to say that Rafe Judkins will do the same thing that D&D did? Of course there will be changes made, but is there some reason that they will be so large that as you say :

10 minutes ago, johnnysd2 said:

At some point the show will need to be more true to the show than the books.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I haven't heard enough to believe it will necessarily the case. Is there something specific on which you are basing your judgement?

[johnnysd2]

4 minutes ago, DragonFairy said:

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I haven't heard enough to believe it will necessarily the case. Is there something specific on which you are basing your judgement?

 

I think it is a function of the medium. Ultimately, as an example Rosamund will bring certain sensibilities and characteristics to Moiraine that are not exactly the same as the character in the books. So that character might not handle certain cannon-based situations exactly the same as book Moiraine, so you make a slight tweak to that scene. And necessary cuts or changes  creates dynamics that are not in the book at all, and that changes things further.

 

Sticking with Moiraine, she will have a higher focus in season 1, there is a good chance her spot on the sexuality spectrum is mad more apparent, very good chance she doesnt go through the doorway or if she does is rescued pretty quickly (like beginning of the next season). Will they keep Lanfear around and not resurrect her into Cyndane? I could make a compelling argument for that

 

Taim will likely be Demandred as originally intended.

 

I suspect we get Min, Elayne and Aviendha, but one of them will have the best chemistry with the actor playing Rand so will be more focused on her.

 

Fain will likely have a larger role. Siuan as well and possibly Elyas.

 

Luc/Issam will likely be entirely cut.

 

And on and on....

 

All these things will quickly change the characters situation and ultimately the overall plot. And that means going to where the show organically should go to. 

[DragonFairy]

Totally agree about Moiraine. There's no way they're going to have her out of the story for 3 seasons or thereabouts. Which of course will mean they will have to create a whole lot of story arc for her that doesn't exist. I see her taking the place of some of the other sisters, such as the ones in Ebou Dar who are supposed to assist Elayne and Nyaneave.

 

I'd say Siuan already has a pretty big role with the rebel Aes Sedai. Would definitely like to see more of Elyas!

 

Anyway, the show writers know the endings for all the characters, so every change they make can be made with that in mind, instead of having to force the characters to fit the end of the story.

[DemandredFO]

agreed, if for no other reason then books 4-14 occur in the span of a few months. Also Valan Luca will likely be dropped wholesale or much abridged so right there it's and however much space is taken up by physical descriptions will be gone too.

[DragonFairy]

Half the books are exposition! or at least it feels that way.

[Jaglover]

11 hours ago, johnnysd2 said:

This may be controversial, but I think GoT ultimately taught us a strong lesson.  After 4 or 5 seasons the characters in GoT were different than the book characters and they were in different situations. All of the decisions to get to that point made sense.

 

But then, they spent the last couple seasons trying to fit those characters into the outline of an ending that matched the books.

 

And it did not work. AT ALL

 

On the other hand Lord of the Rings stayed reasonable close to the source material throughout and gave us most of the endings in those books without anyone saying it didn't fit. The difference being that it was based on a completed series.

 

I'm not one of those who call D&D talentless, the look and feel of GOT was usually amazing after all, but in the writing field, once they could no longer adapt but had to create, they were very much shown up. 

 

The writers of WOT have the far easier task of having a completed series in front of them and being able to create setup in early seasons for payoff later on while knowing exactly what is happening.

 

Yes some characters will no doubt get more screentime than others based on who is cast and fan reaction, but drastic changes as a result runs into the GOT problem. As Linda on her podcast for Westeros.org said they removed some elements and it turned out to be one leg of a chair and without it you didn't have a chair.  That is to say the problems in the later seasons are structural and not due to organic character development. 

Edited July 23, 2019 by Jaglover

[Jaglover]

8 hours ago, DemandredFO said:

agreed, if for no other reason then books 4-14 occur in the span of a few months. Also Valan Luca will likely be dropped wholesale or much abridged so right there it's and however much space is taken up by physical descriptions will be gone too.

On a reread right now and "The Dragon Reborn" could be condensed into four episodes easily (The Shadow rising is a different matter of course) . The task of adaptation is not as daunting as you might first think when you realise just how much can be taken out with no impact on the core story.

 

Just condensing the Faile capture plot, Elayne taking the throne and being introduced to every Aes Sedai alone would cut out two books worth of material. 

[DemandredFO]

Not describing anything because it's all visual cuts out another I don't know how many books

[DragonFairy]

On 7/23/2019 at 1:05 AM, Jaglover said:

Just condensing the Faile capture plot, Elayne taking the throne and being introduced to every Aes Sedai alone would cut out two books worth of material. 

 Easily

On 7/23/2019 at 10:02 AM, DemandredFO said:

Not describing anything because it's all visual cuts out another I don't know how many books

Half the series!! ?

[DemandredFO]

I'm listening to TOM and I have more thoughts

1. Perrin's story needs to go faster

2. Morgase should either get killed by Rhavin or in the crossfire between Rand and Rhavin, it's just too complicated otherwise.

3. Gawyn needs to die in the tower fighting or not be at all

4. Mat needs to be a general before aMoL

5. One of the female forsaken needs to be a general

6. As I said here or elsewhere Egwene needs to have things blow up in her face since after tGH she's on a glide path to Merrilor. All other characters have things go wrong for them or difficulties but Egwene has none of that, even when being beaten in the tower, she manages to bring it down.

7. I think there needs to be a battle at Tar Valon, kind of like what Luckers outlined a few years before tGS came out. I don't remember the thread name but it seems to me what should and probably would have happened.

8. More skirmishes with Trollocs throughout all seasons

9. They either need to make Caemlyn into a full battle or at least show it falling onscreen

10. Lastly, this is my own opinion but given Nyneave's importance, I think Rand should raise her in the old way as she discovers so much.

[Zorlon]

On 7/22/2019 at 2:30 PM, johnnysd2 said:

John's heritage was shoehorned in and was a total MacGuffin.

 

Not at all. If you pay attention the foreshadowing for Jon's parentage is pretty strong even from the first book.

 

 Long before the show was even a twinkle in HBO's eye it was as settled among the ASoIaF fan community as Logain getting healed eventually was obvious to the WoT fan community before LoC was published.

[Carebear Sedai]

On 7/22/2019 at 4:02 PM, DragonFairy said:

Totally agree about Moiraine. There's no way they're going to have her out of the story for 3 seasons or thereabouts. Which of course will mean they will have to create a whole lot of story arc for her that doesn't exist. I see her taking the place of some of the other sisters, such as the ones in Ebou Dar who are supposed to assist Elayne and Nyaneave.

 

A better choice would be to kill Moiraine off & have her stay dead. I have a feeling Rosa didn’t sign on for 7+ seasons. Same goes for Lanfear, and honestly to keep the series less bloated/confusing the dead should stay dead, excepting maybe the last battle if they wanna bring back the hord of fallen Forsaken all at once. 

 

On 7/23/2019 at 1:05 AM, Jaglover said:

Just condensing the Faile capture plot, Elayne taking the throne and being introduced to every Aes Sedai alone would cut out two books worth of material. 

 

Much as I love Elayne in the books, out of all the main characters, her role can most easily get reduced to secondary. Cut the romance with Rand entirely and let her play a supporting role to Egwene/Nynaeve for the girls’ adventure time. There’s no need to waste screentime on the boring throne plot. Cut her brothers too. Gawyn doesn’t need to exist at all, or can die during the rebellion at WT.  Galad isn’t necessary either.

 

 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Carebear Sedai

[DemandredFO]

I think Galad is too important, especially as he's Rand's half brother. If they keep that connection, they'll probably play it up for TV but I agree, Gawyn is useless. I think they'll be changing and playing up storylines as half the books are gone, just description-wise. I'm relistening to EotW, noting what can be dropped and so far I've noticed whole sentences and and paragraphs that can be cut because they'll be visual. I can already see how the book can be made into five episode. I just hope they keep the line dancing scene with Nyneave and Moiraine, it humanizes them

[johnnysd2]

11 minutes ago, DemandredFO said:

I think Galad is too important, especially as he's Rand's half brother. If they keep that connection, they'll probably play it up for TV but I agree, Gawyn is useless. I think they'll be changing and playing up storylines as half the books are gone, just description-wise. I'm relistening to EotW, noting what can be dropped and so far I've noticed whole sentences and and paragraphs that can be cut because they'll be visual. I can already see how the book can be made into five episode. I just hope they keep the line dancing scene with Nyneave and Moiraine, it humanizes them

 

Five episodes for all of EoTW. I dont think so. As much happens in EoTW as the first book of GoT

[Durzan]

Drop the Shaido plotline after Dumai's Wells. Keep Faile's capture, but rework it so that Masema is the one that does it. He's useless after the first 3 books anyway, so having a crazy prophet who "supports" the Dragon Reborn would give him a purpose later in the book, and provide a personal reason for why Faile would kill him later at the beginning of Gathering Storm. Also, significantly shorten Perrin's time as an emo.

 

Have Perrin START trained in the wolf dream start happening a bit sooner in the storyline... but spread it out so he doesn't become HAX powerful until near the end of the series. Have the training tie into his search for Faile. That way we have him doing something useful during that time in the event that AMAZON drags that arc out a bit too long.

 

Keep the Morgase plotline, but don' t bother following her as a POV character. Let us see her leaving the castle, and then have her show up later on in the series when she becomes somewhat important again. Her story can be summed up rather quickly, so no need to spend one or two precious episodes following her unless you manage to tie her into more important events during the middle books.

 

Significantly shorten the time spent on the Bowl of the Winds subplot, have Matt meet up with the wonder-girls earlier on in that subplot, and shorten the amount of screentime focused on him while he's living in Ebou Dar under the Seanchan.

 

Remove Valan Luca and his circus from the story to focus on other more important things.

 

Cut or heavily reduce the screentime of Elayne's fighting for the throne. Or let it happen... just offscreen. 

 

Keep Hinderstap... but relocate the town to a place a that Matt visits a bit earlier in the city... when he has a few followers but is still a bit green and vulnerable. Play up the horror tropes in that episode.

 

Thats all I can think of off the top of my head.

 

 

 

[Carebear Sedai]

18 hours ago, DemandredFO said:

I think Galad is too important, especially as he's Rand's half brother. If they keep that connection, they'll probably play it up for TV but I agree, Gawyn is useless. I think they'll be changing and playing up storylines as half the books are gone, just description-wise. I'm relistening to EotW, noting what can be dropped and so far I've noticed whole sentences and and paragraphs that can be cut because they'll be visual. I can already see how the book can be made into five episode. I just hope they keep the line dancing scene with Nyneave and Moiraine, it humanizes them

 

Does Galad do anything significant enough to warrant keeping? I kept waiting for his connection to Rand to become important but it never did. 

 

 

7 hours ago, Durzan said:

Keep the Morgase plotline, but don' t bother following her as a POV character. Let us see her leaving the castle, and then have her show up later on in the series when she becomes somewhat important again. Her story can be summed up rather quickly, so no need to spend one or two precious episodes following her unless you manage to tie her into more important events during the middle books.

 

I agree with most of your points except this. There’s no plot reason to keep Morgase alive as it’ll just make things confusing for viewers, add to the bloated cast of characters. Plus the logistics of keeping actors over long periods. For that I think any character that disappears & re-emerges later should be killed off. 

 

I think they’ll likely play with the timelines quite a bit (they barely make sense in the books lbr) so the bowl plot might get merged with another one of the girls’ adventures and make it all one cohesive mission. 

[DemandredFO]

They also need to keep the Manetheran story as it basically sets everything up but the Aridhol story can wait as I think bringing too many different magics in too early will just confuse non-fans.

[Deadsy]

17 hours ago, Durzan said:

Drop the Shaido plotline after Dumai's Wells.

 

 

Haven't read the whole topic. Just came here to post this. It's one of my only major gripes with the books. They should have been annihilated at Dumai's Wells. They were only kept around so Perrin would have something to do while the others caught up.

 

Agree with others that Morgase can be killed by Rahvin permanently. 

I would not be shocked if Loial was cut from the story. Not saying he should be - but it would be kind of a hassle to create him and his role wasn't vital to the story. As far as waygates and steddings (if they even mention them), they could find a way to just say the Aes Sedai are the experts on those but have lost most of their knowledge on them and leave it at that.

 

 

9 hours ago, Carebear Sedai said:

Does Galad do anything significant enough to warrant keeping? I kept waiting for his connection to Rand to become important but it never did. 

 

No. Although it was nice having someone for Gawyn and Elayne to argue with when they met Rand and add a bit of drama to that part. But a guard can come in and do that. And Berelain can be removed as well unless they want to keep the drama of her and Faile fighting over Perrin.

 

 

On 8/16/2019 at 2:07 PM, DemandredFO said:

Gawyn is useless.

 

He had a lot of potential though. They could probably combine Gawyn with Galad. Him being part of Elaida's tower could be made into some really good additional scenes that weren't in the books. A good TV show needs characters like Gawyn to annoy us. He went from a favorite character to someone people hate, and stories need those people.

Edited August 17, 2019 by Deadsy

[DemandredFO]

ah, he could've been good but after the tower he falls off a cliff

[Deadsy]

2 hours ago, DemandredFO said:

ah, he could've been good but after the tower he falls off a cliff

 

 

He can be useful in the series as being built up as a good guy and then betraying Rand in a much more personal way. Maybe he even helps Galina capture him. Although then having Egwene still love him is problematic.

[Carebear Sedai]

 

6 hours ago, Deadsy said:

He can be useful in the series as being built up as a good guy and then betraying Rand in a much more personal way. Maybe he even helps Galina capture him. Although then having Egwene still love him is problematic.

 

If they're gonna have Gawyn turn dark I'd want them to lay the groundwork for it. Give him (and Elayne) real reason to doubt Rand, so Gawyn doesn't come off as an idiot and a product of not-so-great writing. 

[DemandredFO]

I think they'll add one or more DFs(probably like Demandred) who turned dark because Rand pushes them away and if they rework the character Gawyn might fit that role. Ingtar and Verin don't count for obvious reasons and someone important needs to back to the light unless they drop the no one can walk so long in the shadow part.

Edited August 18, 2019 by DemandredFO
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