The Creator and the One Power

[Kesiera_Sedai]

If the True Power is the essence of the Dark One, does that mean that the One Power is the essence of the Creator? Does anyone else think that maybe this is why being able to channel grants longevity?

[rand4747]

I think the OP is from the pattern and not the creator.

If it is from the creator I would think he would control access to it, or remove it entirely to protect his creation from destruction.

Also the creator is for non interference and so supplying his power to people would be interfering in his creation.

 

The longevity is probably just some sort of self healing effect from being a channeler. When you use it you become more resistant to illness and disease, as well as aging, but it does not protect you entirely.

I am gathering you have to channel sometimes for the effect or at least hold the source but its not something you have to do all the time just occasionally. People who can learn for example but have never channeled do not get the benefit and people who are burned out or stilled lose it and start aging normally from then on.

I am not sure how the oath rod fits into it other than it appears to cut a persons life in half, it must create some sort of strain on the person and so their self healing is less effective.

 

By self healing I don't mean like actual healing but more like a boost to their immune system and a increased protection from DNA damage somehow.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

You're right, the OP is probably just the energy of the universe, but access is limited...Only maybe 1 or 2/100 have the ability, with only 5% of these having the spark, and even ability varies, sometimes to an astonishing degree. (Think Rand vs. Androl, or Lanfear vs. Morgase)

The channelers themselves describe it as life itself, so I guess makes sense that it extends life, but even between 2 channelers of equal strength, RJ says the amount of channeling one they do has an influence. I guess that would explain in part why the Aes Sedai were shocked every time Cadsuane reappeared (the other part would be because since most Aes Sedai had been in retirement for decades by the time they died, apparently no one had made the connection between OP strength and aging). Oddly enough, it seems that in late starting channelers like Sharina Melloy, the aging process reverses itself, so that eventually they only look as old as they would've if they'd been channeling all along (Sharina's grey went away when she started channeling). I think maybe Cadsuane was the only one who figured it out. She had an angreal that made her as strong as Rand and said she channeled as often as possible, using the weave that required the most strength (remember sometimes there's more than one way to do something, as Egwene learned while with the Aiel). Maybe she even held the power in her sleep, trying to live until Rand grew up. If I remember correctly, for channelers of Rand/ Lanfear's strength, the difference in lifespan could be as much as 125 years, depending on how much channeling they did.

 

If I remember correctly, the shorter lifespan was supposed to be a punishment. In the AoL, only channelers who were criminals were required to swear on the Oath Rod. Plus, the couldn't channel as much because they weren't allowed to do certain weaves anymore.

 

P.S. -- Yeah, I know I'm long-winded, lol.

Edited March 5, 2017 by Kesiera_Sedai

[Sabio]

I agree I think it's from the pattern.  I know the creator doesn't want to take a hand in things, but would seem a bit odd his supplying the OP to people trying to undo creation.

[LapisPharaoh]

Am I the only one who thought the OP cane from the Creator? I thought the Creator and the DO exist in a state of Yin and Yang. As for the reason why the Creator never truly interferes with the lives of people, is because he doesn't need to. The DO himself communicates with the world because he is trying to usurp a kingdom ruled by the Creator. All the Creator needs to do is deploy a champion every now and then with some of his own power (OP) to prevent the DO from breaking lose.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Am I the only one who thought the OP cane from the Creator? I thought the Creator and the DO exist in a state of Yin and Yang. As for the reason why the Creator never truly interferes with the lives of people, is because he doesn't need to. The DO himself communicates with the world because he is trying to usurp a kingdom ruled by the Creator. All the Creator needs to do is deploy a champion every now and then with some of his own power (OP) to prevent the DO from breaking lose.

Good point...Never thought of it that way

[Sabio]

But the abilty to channel is tied to the soul.  So technically if the creator was allowing people to use the OP, he could give it or take it away.  The DO can give or take away access to the True Power, but you never seen anyone being denied acess to the One Power.  Just like the pattern spins out the souls when needed, the creator doesn't.  So for me it wouldn't make sense for the creator to not at least try to limit the forsake access to the one power.

[LapisPharaoh]

So the question is, why would the Creator take away the access to the source from anyone? The simple quablings within humans aren't of any concern to him. He gave them the Power to let them train themselves for the arrival of TG (in all Ages). As for 'if' he wanted to take away the Source from someone, couldn't he just shape the Pattern or the channelers life thread in some way that they sever themselves or someone severs them? The Pattern is all knowing and as an extension, so is the Creator. This is why he doesn't bother with the lives of people because the loss of DO is written into the Pattern. No matter what he does, he is destined to lose.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

You gotta remember though that the Creator determined from the beginning of time who could channel and who couldn't... Apparently there are a finite number of souls and everyone is simply reincarnated over and over, so it's not something to given or taken away...It's a part of who you are, not a physical characteristic, although apparently having the spark is genetic... remember the Ayyad women were only allowed to marry the sons of women who could channel, and look at Elayne...her mother and her paternal aunt (Moiraine) could channel.

[Orderofolde]

I agree I think it's from the pattern.  I know the creator doesn't want to take a hand in things, but would seem a bit odd his supplying the OP to people trying to undo creation.

After reading this I had a sudden realization.  Naomi then must be an incarnation of the pattern itself, rather than having anything to do with the creator, as well as the voices Rand hears early on and then late in the series.

[jack of shadows]

in my opinion,terez came up with the best plausible explanation for nakomi's identity,

according to her,nakomi was one of the heroes of the horn(the whole encounter 

between aviendha and nakomi did happen in tel'aran'rhiod) oh,and i almost forgot,

(yeah right)...nakomi's true identity was tigraine mantear who gave birth to you know who.

Edited March 15, 2017 by jack of shadows

[TheSociopath]

You gotta remember though that the Creator determined from the beginning of time who could channel and who couldn't... Apparently there are a finite number of souls and everyone is simply reincarnated over and over, so it's not something to given or taken away...It's a part of who you are, not a physical characteristic, although apparently having the spark is genetic... remember the Ayyad women were only allowed to marry the sons of women who could channel, and look at Elayne...her mother and her paternal aunt (Moiraine) could channel.

So, something that could be taken from this is that if there are only a finite number of souls, would the use of balefire over the ages eventually destroy everything and everyone?

 

edit was because I forgot a word

Edited March 31, 2017 by TheSociopath

[Sabio]

No, balefire doesn't stop you from being reborn.  I orginally thought it did, but turns out your soul isn't destroyed.

[TheSociopath]

Then do all of the forsaken keep repeating that not even the great lord of the dark can bring back someone killed with balefire?

The DO himself say it when speaking with Demandred about Rahvin. 

 

There are plenty of other times where the use of balefire is referred to as "burning their thread out of the pattern" 

[Sabio]

Yes, anyone killed with Balefire will comeback.  The DO can't bring you back because he can't locate the soul, since you actually died before you died.  To bring someone back he has to know when you died.  But with balefire he has no idea if an hour of what you did is gone, five minutes etc.   So as the DO said he would need to step outside of time to get the soul.  Basically what you did in that life is damaged but your soul is still out there to be reborn one day since you aren't removed from the pattern.  My guess this is sort of a failsafe device so no one can try to balefire everyone out of existence. 

 

I found this example in another topic on balefire:

 

But they aren't removed from the pattern, their thread merely burns backwards a bit. Think about touching a shoe string with a lighter. Balefire is not the final death...their soul will still be reborn.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Sabio

[Orderofolde]

But the abilty to channel is tied to the soul.  So technically if the creator was allowing people to use the OP, he could give it or take it away.  The DO can give or take away access to the True Power, but you never seen anyone being denied acess to the One Power.  Just like the pattern spins out the souls when needed, the creator doesn't.  So for me it wouldn't make sense for the creator to not at least try to limit the forsake access to the one power.

There are ages where the OP vanishes entirely and is forgotten, which mean that the souls of sparkers never manifest

[Orderofolde]

Yes, anyone killed with Balefire will comeback.  The DO can't bring you back because he can't locate the soul, since you actually died before you died.  To bring someone back he has to know when you died.  But with balefire he has no idea if an hour of what you did is gone, five minutes etc.   So as the DO said he would need to step outside of time to get the soul.  Basically what you did in that life is damaged but your soul is still out there to be reborn one day since you aren't removed from the pattern.  My guess this is sort of a failsafe device so no one can try to balefire everyone out of existence. 

 

I found this example in another topic on balefire:

 

But they aren't removed from the pattern, their thread merely burns backwards a bit. Think about touching a shoe string with a lighter. Balefire is not the final death...their soul will still be reborn.

This could be another example of mistaken information much as the Aes Sedai with all their lore were wrong about the Horn of Valere and their fear the Shadow could summon the Heroes if it fell into their hands.  At worst, they could only deny its access to the Forces of Light for the last battle.  So it is up in the air whether Balefire actually removes a soul for good, and whether dying in T'A'R is a final death as well.  After all, Hopper came back in beast mode when the horn was sounded, and he had died in TAR.  Lots of loose ends for us to ponder.  These are some I agree didn't need to be tied up.

[jsbrads]

Kesiera, Binding isn't a punishment. Binding was the civilized set of controls you put on a sadistic pathological channeler so you wouldn't have to sever them. A side effect was a half life (or much less) but as discussed above, severing would shorten life to only 50 more years max.

Nakomi wasnt Tigraine, Aviendha isn't a dream walker.

OP was what the Creator use to create the planet. By that logic, the Creator is/was an alien. OP is part of the universe. The Pattern was created by the Creator and yes, it cheats by tripping baddies and always bumps the goodies out of the way of any arrows that would have killed them.

[Maedelin]

 

Yes, anyone killed with Balefire will comeback.  The DO can't bring you back because he can't locate the soul, since you actually died before you died.  To bring someone back he has to know when you died.  But with balefire he has no idea if an hour of what you did is gone, five minutes etc.   So as the DO said he would need to step outside of time to get the soul.  Basically what you did in that life is damaged but your soul is still out there to be reborn one day since you aren't removed from the pattern.  My guess this is sort of a failsafe device so no one can try to balefire everyone out of existence. 

 

I found this example in another topic on balefire:

 

But they aren't removed from the pattern, their thread merely burns backwards a bit. Think about touching a shoe string with a lighter. Balefire is not the final death...their soul will still be reborn.

This could be another example of mistaken information much as the Aes Sedai with all their lore were wrong about the Horn of Valere and their fear the Shadow could summon the Heroes if it fell into their hands.  At worst, they could only deny its access to the Forces of Light for the last battle.  So it is up in the air whether Balefire actually removes a soul for good, and whether dying in T'A'R is a final death as well.  After all, Hopper came back in beast mode when the horn was sounded, and he had died in TAR.  Lots of loose ends for us to ponder.  These are some I agree didn't need to be tied up.

 

This is my first post on the forums but I have a question.  Hopper was in the Last Battle?  I thought he died in T'A'R and he (in my own mind) was just a soul loosely floating to await a new rebirth, perhaps as a different creature. (Wolves just keep getting recycled into wolves each lifetime)

 

I really did think that Balefire destroyed a soul completely.  I suppose I was thinking in too linear a fashion.  Just because a thread was burned after the pattern was woven doesn't mean the thread is picked up again afterward.  But...I'm still not sure, I could use a little clarification please!!

[jack of shadows]

hopper didn't fight in the last battle.