Aemon & Eldrene

[Simo]

Moiraine related a story about Manetheren & Aemon & Eldrene, in the story it was said that Aemon & Eldrene, had a love that Death could not sunder.Maybe Mat isn't Aemon reborn but you'd agree Mat is a direct decedent of Aemon & Tuon would be Eldrene's direct decendant.

 

"live once more a part of what was."

The Finns Gave this as one of Mats answers & I'm positive it has to do with the story of Aemon & Eldrene.

 

What do you think...

[thevillagecouncil]

i'm not positive about mat being Aemon, I think it's relating to the memories from all the past great generals living on through him

[lordofsoup]

he could speak the Old tongue before he ever got the generals memories

[randsc]

How are there direct descendents of Eldrene that are not also direct descendents of Aemon? Aemon doesn't seem the type to tolerate a cuckoo in his nest.

 

And anyway, there is nothing in the story that indicates that either of them had direct descendents.

[yoniy0]

Agreed, they probably weren't outlived by any decedents, if they had any to begin with. One would expect any children of theirs to become a rallying point for surviving Manetherenians (is that the correct term?), rather than the nation descending into oblivion.

[blazetheearth]

Agreed, they probably weren't outlived by any decedents, if they had any to begin with. One would expect any children of theirs to become a rallying point for surviving Manetherenians (is that the correct term?), rather than the nation descending into oblivion.

 

I always thought of them as 'Manetherites'.

[MattTaz]

Just after Mat was healed of Fain's dagger he had a pre-fox memory of being a General for Manetheran and Eldrene was the Queen.

I'm presuming this was his own past life memory

 

Edit: He was a General, in charge of The Heart Guard, and his personal bannerman carried the Red Eagle = King

But when, didnt the Trolloc Wars go on for a long time?

[Sleeper]

This doesn't directly refer to what you're talking about, but since we're on the topic of death and rebirth:

 

Do you think that Mat and Perrin will become bound to the Wheel of time as Heroes? Is that even possible? I've wondered about that for a while, they definitely seem to deserve it.

[Eowyn]

I am pretty sure in tEotW when they Mat starts speaking in the Old Tongue, and Moraine mentions the Old Blood runs deep in Mat, that he may even have direct connections to Aemon and Eldrene. Which of course makes him freak out as he thinks he is the one of the 3 they are looking for.

 

So, Moraine thought it possible, and who am I to question her? *g*

[Finnssss22]

We don't have any direct evidence that Mat is actually Aemon reborn, it's just theory and a pretty cool one to boot

 

We do have direct evidence of Mat being of Aemon's bloodline.

 

Then throw in this....

Aemon al'Caar al'Thorin

Caarthorin

Cauthon

 

 

If Mat is Aemon reborn then it's very likely that Tuon is Eldrene reborn but unfortunately the only way we're going to confirm this is when Mat blows the Horn again in the presence of Tuon and they address the two of them as such.

Not likely imo.

[yoniy0]

Simo, do you mind clarifying whether you meant Aemon and Eldrene reborn (in the poll, that is)?

[Kalm]

We don't have any direct evidence that Mat is actually Aemon reborn, it's just theory and a pretty cool one to boot

 

We do have direct evidence of Mat being of Aemon's bloodline.

 

Then throw in this....

Aemon al'Caar al'Thorin

Caarthorin

Cauthon

 

 

If Mat is Aemon reborn then it's very likely that Tuon is Eldrene reborn but unfortunately the only way we're going to confirm this is when Mat blows the Horn again in the presence of Tuon and they address the two of them as such.

Not likely imo.

 

If we go that route we have even more direct evidence of Tam (I almost said Rand, but then I remembered he's not even an Al' Thor by blood) and the Al' Caars being descendants of Aemon. Not that anything's wrong with that.

 

My main objections are:

 

Is Aemon a Hero of the horn?

 

Many a poster has raised beliefs that Mat and Perrin are Heroes reborn, but the contradictory point has always been that Hawkwing referred to Perrin and Mat as Bannerman and Horn-Sounder respectively at Falme, while he referred to Rand as Lews Therin. This would imply that they weren't, as Hawkwing didn't recognize them as such. I know Mat being a Hero is not the point of this topic but it leads to my other question...

 

Are any souls except Heroes' tied together?

 

Birgitte and Gaidal are tied together, destined to fall in love with one another over and over as the ages pass. But we don't have any examples of normal souls ever being tied together. For instance, Rand is a HotH reborn and Ilyena doesn't seem to be (there really is not that much info about her at all...one of the few areas I wish RJ had fleshed out). The love of his previous life is not even a part of the series other than in name. He's fallen for 3 totally different girls. So why would Mat, someone whose soul we don't even know to be bound to the Wheel, find the same soul he fell in love with in a previous life, when that soul isn't bound to the Wheel either?

 

He could well be Aemon, it's quite plausible, but Tuon being Eldrene seems a bit wild. But hey, that's why theories are cool right? They can be anything you want them to be. Although...

 

Eldrene died by channeling too much in defense of Manetheren correct? Tuon's channeling ability would be a nice point in favour of them being the same soul, as channeling ability is tied to the soul. Not that she couldn't be another channeler soul, but hey; theories right? The "live again a part of what was" thing could just be figurative. In his previous life he was a warrior king married to an Aes Sedai wife, in this one he is once again a warrior king married to a channeling wife. Most plausible happening IMO.

[Ashandarei]

Can you add an option for I think Mat's Aemon but not Tuon is Eldrene? As opposed to now where I can only say No?

[yoniy0]

Simo, you can do that by editing the original post. If you need my help with this, just say the word (better PM me as well, or simply quote this post, I get notified when someone quotes my posts).

Also, please specify whether you mean 'a descendent of Aemon' or 'Aemon reborn'.

[Callern]

The Finns also called Mat "Son of battles", and this was before he got the memories. Tho you could argue that they knew he would get them.

[Cat-Sister]

We don't have any direct evidence that Mat is actually Aemon reborn, it's just theory and a pretty cool one to boot

 

We do have direct evidence of Mat being of Aemon's bloodline.

 

Then throw in this....

Aemon al'Caar al'Thorin

Caarthorin

Cauthon

 

 

If Mat is Aemon reborn then it's very likely that Tuon is Eldrene reborn but unfortunately the only way we're going to confirm this is when Mat blows the Horn again in the presence of Tuon and they address the two of them as such.

Not likely imo.

 

If we go that route we have even more direct evidence of Tam (I almost said Rand, but then I remembered he's not even an Al' Thor by blood) and the Al' Caars being descendants of Aemon. Not that anything's wrong with that.

 

My main objections are:

 

Is Aemon a Hero of the horn?

 

Many a poster has raised beliefs that Mat and Perrin are Heroes reborn, but the contradictory point has always been that Hawkwing referred to Perrin and Mat as Bannerman and Horn-Sounder respectively at Falme, while he referred to Rand as Lews Therin. This would imply that they weren't, as Hawkwing didn't recognize them as such. I know Mat being a Hero is not the point of this topic but it leads to my other question...

 

Are any souls except Heroes' tied together?

 

Birgitte and Gaidal are tied together, destined to fall in love with one another over and over as the ages pass. But we don't have any examples of normal souls ever being tied together. For instance, Rand is a HotH reborn and Ilyena doesn't seem to be (there really is not that much info about her at all...one of the few areas I wish RJ had fleshed out). The love of his previous life is not even a part of the series other than in name. He's fallen for 3 totally different girls. So why would Mat, someone whose soul we don't even know to be bound to the Wheel, find the same soul he fell in love with in a previous life, when that soul isn't bound to the Wheel either?

 

He could well be Aemon, it's quite plausible, but Tuon being Eldrene seems a bit wild. But hey, that's why theories are cool right? They can be anything you want them to be. Although...

 

Eldrene died by channeling too much in defense of Manetheren correct? Tuon's channeling ability would be a nice point in favour of them being the same soul, as channeling ability is tied to the soul. Not that she couldn't be another channeler soul, but hey; theories right? The "live again a part of what was" thing could just be figurative. In his previous life he was a warrior king married to an Aes Sedai wife, in this one he is once again a warrior king married to a channeling wife. Most plausible happening IMO.

[Cat-Sister]

About Artur Hawkwing not recognizing Mat and Perrin when the horn was blow...

who is to say that Artur Hawkwing recognized Rand as LT BECAUSE he was a hero...Rand had already been discovered/linked to being the dragon at that point.

Just as Birgitte "watched" the way the forsaken and elayne, nynaeve etc. interacted in Tel'Aran'Rhiod, who is to say that Rand hadn't been "watched" and discovered that way.

Maybe because the pattern hadn't made it clear yet who's souls are in Mat and Perrin, Artur Hawkwing (and the other heroes) were not yet able to recognize "who they were"

[Ashandarei]

Can you add an option for I think Mat's Aemon but not Tuon is Eldrene? As opposed to now where I can only say No?

I take back what I said earlier. I still don't think Tuon's Eldrene but now I also don't think Mat is Aemon because of something I found during my current WoT reread:

 

Mat scowled. "I was thinking about...about what happened back there. About those words I . . ." Everybody turned to look at him then, not just Rand, and he shifted uneasily. "Well, you heard what Moiraine said. It's as if some dead man was speaking with my mouth. I don't like it." His scowl grew deeper when Perrin chuckled.

"Aemon's warcry, she said - right? Maybe you're Aemon come back again. The way you go on about how dull Emond's Field is, I'd think you would like that - being a king and hero reborn."

"Don't say that!" Thom drew a deep breath; everybody stared at him now. "That is dangerous talk, stupid talk. The dead can be reborn, or take a living body, and it is not something to speak of lightly." He took another breath to calm himself before going on. "The old blood, she said. The blood, not a dead man.¹ I've heard that it can happen, sometimes. Heard, though I never really thought . . . It was your roots, boy. A line running from you to your father to your grandfather, right on back to Manetheren, and maybe beyond. Well, now you know your family is old. You ought to let it go at that and be glad. Most people don't know much more than that they had a father."

¹ Fairly sure that RJ's telling us through Thom and his mention of Moiraine's exact words that Matt isn't in fact Aemon reborn but that he just has a lot of Manethernian old blood in him.

[Aliriel]

Then throw in this....

Aemon al'Caar al'Thorin

Caarthorin

Cauthon

 

If we go that route we have even more direct evidence of Tam (I almost said Rand, but then I remembered he's not even an Al' Thor by blood) and the Al' Caars being descendants of Aemon. Not that anything's wrong with that.

 

Not disagreeing with you as there is no proof either way, true or false, but who says either of those families are from Aemon? IIRC the "al" prefex to a name means "son of", therefore they could come from his brothers if he had any or uncles of his father. Just my thoughts.

 

A.

[Finnssss22]

Then throw in this....

Aemon al'Caar al'Thorin

Caarthorin

Cauthon

 

If we go that route we have even more direct evidence of Tam (I almost said Rand, but then I remembered he's not even an Al' Thor by blood) and the Al' Caars being descendants of Aemon. Not that anything's wrong with that.

 

Not disagreeing with you as there is no proof either way, true or false, but who says either of those families are from Aemon? IIRC the "al" prefex to a name means "son of", therefore they could come from his brothers if he had any or uncles of his father. Just my thoughts.

 

A.

 

When BS was asked recently about Mat being Aemon, he wouldn't confirm anything of course saying something along the lines of it's possible but the main implication is to Mat's bloodline.

Mat is a direct descendant of Aemon, his vision/memory upon awakening from his healing from the Dagger showed us this a long time ago.

 

After much debate, I don't know if I believe that he truly is Aemon reborn but IF he is, then Tuon IS Eldrene.

[Cat-Sister]

Then throw in this....

Aemon al'Caar al'Thorin

Caarthorin

Cauthon

 

If we go that route we have even more direct evidence of Tam (I almost said Rand, but then I remembered he's not even an Al' Thor by blood) and the Al' Caars being descendants of Aemon. Not that anything's wrong with that.

 

Not disagreeing with you as there is no proof either way, true or false, but who says either of those families are from Aemon? IIRC the "al" prefex to a name means "son of", therefore they could come from his brothers if he had any or uncles of his father. Just my thoughts.

 

A.

 

When BS was asked recently about Mat being Aemon, he wouldn't confirm anything of course saying something along the lines of it's possible but the main implication is to Mat's bloodline.

Mat is a direct descendant of Aemon, his vision/memory upon awakening from his healing from the Dagger showed us this a long time ago.

 

After much debate, I don't know if I believe that he truly is Aemon reborn but IF he is, then Tuon IS Eldrene.

 

Even IF Mat is Aemon reborn, it does not actually mean Tuon is Eldrene...for an example although Lews Therin Telamon deeply loved (and still pines for) Ilyena, there is now THREE women in his life whom he loves, and nothing that points to ANY of them being Ilyens (and if one happened to be, it still shows you can love/be with someone else in a different life)

[peregrine]

I have to respectfully but passionately disagree! The WOT guide sheds more light on this. It's true that Mat bears memories (his own memories, not those from the Finns) from the time of Manetheren's fall, but his battle cry "For the honor of the the Rose of the Sun" was the battle cry of Aemon's Heart Guard (appropriately named the Band of the Red Hand), which honors Eldrene as the Queen. His memories are of leading the heart guard into battle at the fall -- of trying to protect the king. I suppose it is possible that he was a relative of Aemon's, but there is no reason to think he is a descendent. If he is reborn, it is not as Aemon but as a general. I am also under the impression the entire royal family was killed in battle, and there are no remaining descendents of Manetheren royalty.

 

I always felt like the fact that Mat both had his own memories as a general reborn and has memories from the Finns was an awkward plot inconsistency. I've always suspected Jordan knew he wanted Mat to become a Great Captain but didn't come up with the Finns until he'd already written the first book (and realized that being a reborn general just wasn't going to cut it in the 'epic' department). So I've always been cautious about reading more into it.

 

On the note of Mat's memories, I seem to recall something but could be making it up and can't find the source anywhere (I don't have the WOT guide on me, if it's in there) ... I thought Jack of the Shadows was sung by Culain's men (Culain being the general from Aldeshar that died at Hawking's hand during the Consolidation). Something about the Golden Lions roaring the song in defiance during their final charge. If anyone can confirm any of this, please let me know. I may just have an overactive imagination. Or perhaps I'm mixing two different memories up.

[Finnssss22]

I have to respectfully but passionately disagree! The WOT guide sheds more light on this. It's true that Mat bears memories (his own memories, not those from the Finns) from the time of Manetheren's fall, but his battle cry "For the honor of the the Rose of the Sun" was the battle cry of Aemon's Heart Guard (appropriately named the Band of the Red Hand), which honors Eldrene as the Queen. His memories are of leading the heart guard into battle at the fall -- of trying to protect the king. I suppose it is possible that he was a relative of Aemon's, but there is no reason to think he is a descendent. If he is reborn, it is not as Aemon but as a general. I am also under the impression the entire royal family was killed in battle, and there are no remaining descendents of Manetheren royalty.

 

I always felt like the fact that Mat both had his own memories as a general reborn and has memories from the Finns was an awkward plot inconsistency. I've always suspected Jordan knew he wanted Mat to become a Great Captain but didn't come up with the Finns until he'd already written the first book (and realized that being a reborn general just wasn't going to cut it in the 'epic' department). So I've always been cautious about reading more into it.

 

On the note of Mat's memories, I seem to recall something but could be making it up and can't find the source anywhere (I don't have the WOT guide on me, if it's in there) ... I thought Jack of the Shadows was sung by Culain's men (Culain being the general from Aldeshar that died at Hawking's hand during the Consolidation). Something about the Golden Lions roaring the song in defiance during their final charge. If anyone can confirm any of this, please let me know. I may just have an overactive imagination. Or perhaps I'm mixing two different memories up.

 

 

 

I will now respectfully but passionately disagree in turn.

Aemon was General of all Manetheren forces, with the Heartguard/Band of the Red Hand his own personal army, an elite wing that was put to use where the fighting was hottest.

In Mat's memory he is not just A General of the Heartguard, he is THE General of the entire army.

If you re-read it from chpt 19 tDR, he is clearly in command of the entire army not just part and the battle was definitely Manetheren's last stand which we all know took place where Emond's Field stands today which was originally called Aemon's Field because that is where he died.

 

Whether he is actually Aemon reborn is up in the air and just theory but, as BS put it, there is at the very least a very strong implication of Mat's Bloodline.

[Aliriel]

Then throw in this....

Aemon al'Caar al'Thorin

Caarthorin

Cauthon

 

If we go that route we have even more direct evidence of Tam (I almost said Rand, but then I remembered he's not even an Al' Thor by blood) and the Al' Caars being descendants of Aemon. Not that anything's wrong with that.

 

Not disagreeing with you as there is no proof either way, true or false, but who says either of those families are from Aemon? IIRC the "al" prefex to a name means "son of", therefore they could come from his brothers if he had any or uncles of his father. Just my thoughts.

 

A.

 

 

Not disputing the name Cauthon or Mat's bloodline, my comment was in regards to the surnames of al'Thor and al'Caar.

 

A.

[Finnssss22]

 

Not disputing the name Cauthon or Mat's bloodline, my comment was in regards to the surnames of al'Thor and al'Caar.

 

A.

 

 

Oh

Well in that case, I like the connection because my own surname followed a similar combining and shortening from what it was many generations ago.