The conversation between Perrin/Faile/Elayne/Morgase/Alliandre - Re: The 2Riv ''Rebellion'' in Andor

[sskk]

What Rand should have done is, let's trade Cairhien, a whole country for two rivers, Elyne and any noble from Andor would have to be an idiot to say no, and it would not set any dangerous/bad precedent for Andor, as they got one hell of deal.

 

And with Rand, he wouldn't have problem give it away, and no one will question his action. Since he more or less gave Cairhien, and in a sense Andor away.

Rand didn't have the TR, Perrin did, so Rand couldn't give it away. Why would he? TR benefits more from being in Andor than it would from being independent, therefore the deal they struck (TR as autonomous Andoran province in name as well as fact) is the best deal possible.

 

 

Rand didn't have TR, sure, but could you at least read that one more time? He did have Cairhien...

 

edit: Just in case you still don't get it, he could have gotten TR under his name, so it's no longer part of Andor, and we would not have this thread, got it?

 

As for TR benefits more from being in Andor than it would from being independent, it might, just might be better for now, but once it become bigger and more powerful, Independence would be the best.

[Phoenix8514]

I found the conversation interesting. The main reason is the parallel to European history. The only problem I have with it is the fact they had the thing in the first place. Elayne was never going hang Perrin. Rand would not be too happy and Perrin is essential for the Light. Plus, I think it is kind of stupid they are making plans for after the LB. They need to win it first and there is nothing to say the nations will even still exist.

 

I would like to add my own take on the possible power issues. I'm a Secondary Education History student and the real world situation that comes to mind is Henry II of England. He was King of England, Duke of Normandy, Count of Anjou, etc. He controlled more of France than the King of France. He was a king, but still a vassal of the French King. So there is a possible parallel with Rand. If I remember correctly from my understanding of feudalism, Rand would only owe allegiance to Elayne for the Two Rivers. That is all she could hold him to as well. On his own, he could summon men from the Two Rivers to suppress a rebellion in say Tear unless Elayne said he could not. That is the way it is supposed to work. Like Henry II, Rand is not an ordianry man. In reality, Henry was way more powerful than Louis was and could do pretty much whatever he wanted. Rand is the same way. He is a king in his own right and you could argue and emperor as well.

[Sleeper]

 

You callin' me silly, boy?

 

Haha naw, just overly hopeful, we all were at some point or another but I think we all knew deep down that it wasn't going to happen.

Yeah, I guess I'll just have to get used to High Lord Perrin, subject of Queen Elayne.

 

Argh...

[Mr Ares]

As for TR benefits more from being in Andor than it would from being independent, it might, just might be better for now, but once it become bigger and more powerful, Independence would be the best.

Well, it can't get any bigger. It is bounded on all sides. How does it benefit from independence? How is Cairhien (which Rand has already promised to Elayne, so he is only keeping it in trust) for TR (which Rand has tried to distance himself from) anything other than a completely stupid trade, massively out of character and counter-productive?

[Durinax]

As for TR benefits more from being in Andor than it would from being independent, it might, just might be better for now, but once it become bigger and more powerful, Independence would be the best.

Well, it can't get any bigger. It is bounded on all sides. How does it benefit from independence? How is Cairhien (which Rand has already promised to Elayne, so he is only keeping it in trust) for TR (which Rand has tried to distance himself from) anything other than a completely stupid trade, massively out of character and counter-productive?

only way it could benefit would be to cross the river to the south, map out the forest there, tame it and submit ghealdan until its a province, which never would happen. and andor is too powerful to truly fight

[Nooska]

I found the conversation interesting. The main reason is the parallel to European history. The only problem I have with it is the fact they had the thing in the first place. Elayne was never going hang Perrin. Rand would not be too happy and Perrin is essential for the Light. Plus, I think it is kind of stupid they are making plans for after the LB. They need to win it first and there is nothing to say the nations will even still exist.

 

I would like to add my own take on the possible power issues. I'm a Secondary Education History student and the real world situation that comes to mind is Henry II of England. He was King of England, Duke of Normandy, Count of Anjou, etc. He controlled more of France than the King of France. He was a king, but still a vassal of the French King. So there is a possible parallel with Rand. If I remember correctly from my understanding of feudalism, Rand would only owe allegiance to Elayne for the Two Rivers. That is all she could hold him to as well. On his own, he could summon men from the Two Rivers to suppress a rebellion in say Tear unless Elayne said he could not. That is the way it is supposed to work. Like Henry II, Rand is not an ordianry man. In reality, Henry was way more powerful than Louis was and could do pretty much whatever he wanted. Rand is the same way. He is a king in his own right and you could argue and emperor as well.

Not trying to put down your argument (which is sound imo), but I think we've covered this in teh companion topic "Perrins New station in Andor", where this would be more on topic :)

[sskk]

As for TR benefits more from being in Andor than it would from being independent, it might, just might be better for now, but once it become bigger and more powerful, Independence would be the best.

Well, it can't get any bigger. It is bounded on all sides. How does it benefit from independence? How is Cairhien (which Rand has already promised to Elayne, so he is only keeping it in trust) for TR (which Rand has tried to distance himself from) anything other than a completely stupid trade, massively out of character and counter-productive?

only way it could benefit would be to cross the river to the south, map out the forest there, tame it and submit ghealdan until its a province, which never would happen. and andor is too powerful to truly fight

 

History tell us, powerful nation will fall and small ones can become mighty. That aside, after last battle, even if we ignore Rand, as long as Mat put all his support behind TR, Andor would not able to do much against the expansion. Not only that, I wouldn't be suppressed if both country are done in 10 gen, you just never know.

[MichaelOfTheWhite]

I agree with Fish. I think that she never really intended to hang them. although she likely would have if she didn't like the answer. The way she presented herself was just an act to get a completely honest answer out of Perrin & co. They reacted without thinking, and gave the worst presentation of their motives. If Elayne found she could trust Perrin at his absolute most threatening, she can trust him implicitly any time at all.

I agree with this; and also want to add that she probably said first what she thought they'd expect to hear 'the Queen' say. After that it's easy for her to slip her real motives in at her leisure because they're in familiar territory: a situation understood well by both parties, without any irrelevant plans, ideas or arguments that can be brought to bear, weakening her position or distracting her subject from his obligation to her.

I guess that's what she'd want, anyhow, as regent.

[Finnssss22]

I agree with Fish. I think that she never really intended to hang them. although she likely would have if she didn't like the answer. The way she presented herself was just an act to get a completely honest answer out of Perrin & co. They reacted without thinking, and gave the worst presentation of their motives. If Elayne found she could trust Perrin at his absolute most threatening, she can trust him implicitly any time at all.

I agree with this; and also want to add that she probably said first what she thought they'd expect to hear 'the Queen' say. After that it's easy for her to slip her real motives in at her leisure because they're in familiar territory: a situation understood well by both parties, without any irrelevant plans, ideas or arguments that can be brought to bear, weakening her position or distracting her subject from his obligation to her.

I guess that's what she'd want, anyhow, as regent.

 

 

Everything except the possibility of actually hanging Perrin.

It was never even the slightest of an option, just the idlest of threats and a bargaining chip, Perrin knew it, Morgase knew it and Elayne knew it even more than any of them.

Hanging Perrin would of cost her almost every ally she had and taken the throne of Cairhien out of her reach overnight.

[LadyWordsmith]

And...this is what I get for joining today, I come in very late to a great conversation!

 

Hopefully what I toss in will be helpful, as there's been quite a good bit of commentary in here so far, and I do not wish to step on anyone's excellent observations. I merely wish to add on and comment on a couple of the great ideas mentioned.

 

I agree with earlier comments that Elayne's comment about hanging Perrin was not meant as a threat so much as a political 'what if'? "Can you give me a reason why I should not punish you when I am a monarch whose people you have taken off into foreign lands and led to aid foreign queens, while claiming a Lordship in a Kingdom you don't actually hold" (which we rather see in this scene, as I believe Fisher King pointed out earlier, are titles traditionally bestowed by the Queen herself). She's not going to go beheading the head of an army of Andorans on the eve of the Last Battle, especially not a ta'veren and friend of Rand. Personal feelings on her part aside, it would be a very stupid idea. :)

 

I have to (politely) disagree, at least in part, with a prior statement that Jordan was an amateur when it came to the use of political history of the middle ages, if only because of some of the political assumptions that have to be made in order for scenes like this one to work at all. That, and his particularly choices in leaving out critical elements of medieval politics (which was probably right on his part) because they would have hindered the world he has created. They are used when appropriately convenient, and the elements that would not work in Randland have been removed. Daes dae'mar (as we see it played in name and as politics involving nations with real nobles and crowns such as we don't have, or do not treat the same in modern day), does follow a lot of very basic historical precedents, as well as several more subtle political moves based in historical precedent. Given how well they are normally pulled off throughout the rest of the series by many more politically experienced characters, I expect that any heavy-handedness in this scene (and scenes with some of our other less-experienced major characters) is, really, due to Elayne's own personal inexperience more than the skills of the writers involved here. She's still very new to her throne, and not solidly on it, and she knows it. There's a lot of pressure there. We know she's not as mature as she could be (given some of the other things she tried to do in this book), and if she's having the typical pregnancy the books have allowed her to gripe about for an eternity (I say this with ironic amusment Having dealt in the past with the effects of that much hormone change on the ability to think logically), than she's really probably 'not' using all the logic or common sense she might have normally either.

 

I actually really enjoyed this scene in the book (much like the Rand and Egwene scene earlier in the book) partially for the coming together of characters for the first time in forever (Beginning of Book 4 since we had Perrin and Elayne in the same location), and it allows for some great expansion on how characters have changed, or how different they are from each other as the politics are dealt with (with the over-toned necessity that 'gah the last battle is coming' that means that a lot of people cannot necessarily do what they would normally do, or what they prefer, because there is that looming menace affecting how anyone with an obligation to a large number of people. That's a lot of stress to put on anyone.

 

I have to admit, I also find it relevant (and this scene is a great example of it) that a large number of our critical political players in this series are barely old enough to (or not yet old enough to) be out of college if they lived in the Real World. Clever, talented, and more experienced as they are, there's just only so much they can learn and mature in the (about 2.5 years thanks to the more obvious time references inserted in ToM) time they've had to deal with all this chaos.

[Ashandarei]

Note: So as not to derail the "About Elayne making Rand lord of the two rivers..." thread, I copied and pasted this post(link to original post) here. I've quoted the post I'm replying to as well so hopefully there won't be any confusion.

 

First: The statements above I would say are correct in that giving Rand the personal land does not give Illian the land inside Andor. She gave them to "Rand" not to "The King of Illian." In a contractual obligation to a monarch, the lands and titles then would not be part of Illian because whoever succeeds Rand in Illian would not get that land.

 

Second: Also commented above (correctly as far as I can see in the book) is that Rand is given the Two Rivers as land (no he doesn't know it yet. Presumably that will be covered in the meeting everyone gathered for that hasn't happened yet. If at all), with Perrin as his steward.

 

Politically speaking, giving Rand that land does two things: #1 if the land belongs to Rand, it was not rebelling against it's rightful Lord (as Rand is from there in the first place and all the Two Rivers folk have been doing his bidding).

#2 It makes Rand al'Thor a Lord of Andor, which requires (if he gets around to it) certain oaths of fealty and obedience to HIS QUEEN (Which would thus be Elayne).

 

Oh, and it gets Perrin out of trouble for being 'presumptuous' with a title he was not given¹ by the crown. :)

 

While it may all come to nothing after the Last Battle, it is more of a shrewd contingency plan on Elayne's part that allows for the quelling of murmurs of rebellion within her kingdom for the moment, and (assuming enough folk survive that are part of this deal) puts Rand in a position where he can't do whatever he wants with Andoran people without having some level of discussion with his Monarch. (Which, we all know that's complicated anyway given certain other personal things between them ;) ). And beacuse of those relations with Rand, it would bring the Two Rivers nicely back under Crown control.

 

It's a very logical and clever bit of politicking. Elayne was well within her rights as Queen to make things much more uncomfortable for Perrin.²

 

Quote Link

Very nicely put. Clarifies multiple things Elayne was going for when she did what she did with Perrin. I had rushed through that section when I read it and hadn't really had time to absorb and digest the information, reading your explanation helped with that. Here's my 2 cents:

 

¹ By naming him Steward of TR, I think Elayne still left herself open to that kind of criticism even if not as much as if she had named him Lord. After all, he still got the second highest position of leadership in the TR after "rebelling."

 

² While she may be within her rights as Queen, she is way out of her league trying to face down a ta'veren and she almost did something very ill-advised. I think Elayne's been quite spoiled by having Rand as a lover and never having to worry about him as Dragon Reborn and about what he might do to her for her actions(i.e. expelling the Aiel and stripping his banners etc). Any other ruler would have faced serious repercussions if they had done such things in Illian, Tear, Cairhien etc. After all, Andor was in Rand's control just as much as any of the other nations. My point is that Elayne has no idea that there are forces in the world far, far more powerful than her even if she is Queen of Andor. Because she never had to worry about things like that, she acts uppity with Perrin and only wise advice from her mother stops her from doing something very foolish during her meeting with Perrin like exiling him or trying to execute him. I've bolded the text showing her mood. First she snaps, then she hesitates before doing something precipitous.

 

"I offered you a boon so that you could ask for forgiveness. I'd pardon you, and I'll be certain to send troops so that your people are protected. Accept this, and we can all go back to life the way it should be." "That isn't going to happen," Perrin said softly. "The Two Rivers will have lords, now. I fought it for a time. You may, too, but it won't change anything."

"Perhaps," Elayne said. "But recognizing you would be to agree that a man can just claim a title within my nation, then keep it by stubbornly gathering an army. It makes for a terrible precedent, Perrin. I don't think you realize the predicament you've put me in."

"We'll muddle through," Perrin said in that stubborn tone he used when he wasn't going to budge. "I'm not stepping down."

"You're doing a poor job of persuading me you will accept my authority," Elayne snapped. Not good, Faile thought, opening her mouth to jump in. A clash here would not serve them well.

Before she could speak, however, another voice cut in. "Daughter," Morgase said softly, drinking her tea. "If you plan to dance with ta'veren, be sure that you know the proper steps. I've traveled with this man. I've seen the world bend around him; I've seen bitter enemies become his allies. To fight the Pattern itself is to try to move a mountain with a spoon."³ Elayne hesitated, looking at her mother.

 

³ Here Morgase essentially pulls Elayne's butt out of the fire by keeping her from acting rashly. Elayne is lucky that Perrin is such a calm guy(usually)- a less cool-headed person would have rightly taken offense, turned back, and walked out on her the moment she threatened to execute him. Insulting a man with the backing of the TR(bowmen), Ashaman, Mayeners, Ghealdaners, ties to Saldea, and Seanchan allies is a foolish move no matter who you are, and threatening to execute him is far more than a simple insult. And that's not even counting the fact that he's one of the three ta'veren; as Morgase mentioned, opposing him would be like trying to fight the Pattern and the Wheel itself.

 

Long story short, Elayne's solution to the TR problem was quite clever but IMHO her meeting with Perrin was rather poorly handled.

 

P.S. I really like how you stayed calm while discussing your explanation in your previous posts while still being effective at making your points/arguments. It's something rare on these boards. I know I, myself, often have a hard time arguing something without seeming aggressive because of having strong feelings one way or another (as may or may not be evidenced by this post ).

[MasterAblar]

Why would Rand accept this deal if it means he has to swear fealty to Elayne? She gave it to him as his seat in Andor I think. I honestly don't know what that entails regarding Elayne and the crown, but I don't see how that could make Rand a subject of Andor.

[Ashandarei]

Why would Rand accept this deal if it means he has to swear fealty to Elayne? She gave it to him as his seat in Andor I think. I honestly don't know what that entails regarding Elayne and the crown, but I don't see how that could make Rand a subject of Andor.

 

Elayne is the love of his life, is having his children, and has bonded him as a warder. I doubt a small formality such as swearing fealty to her would bother him much, especially considering that it's for the good of the TR and Andor(maintaining the peace and such). And Rand was already a subject of Andor.

[muddymess]

Why would Rand accept this deal if it means he has to swear fealty to Elayne? She gave it to him as his seat in Andor I think. I honestly don't know what that entails regarding Elayne and the crown, but I don't see how that could make Rand a subject of Andor.

 

Elayne is the love of his life, is having his children, and has bonded him as a warder. I doubt a small formality such as swearing fealty to her would bother him much, especially considering that it's for the good of the TR and Andor(maintaining the peace and such). And Rand was already a subject of Andor.

 

Yeah Rand always was a bit on the soft side.

 

I do however think it's rude to presume he will swear fealty, which he undoubtedly will do (with our knowledge, not Elaynes/Perrins/etc), and give him a position without his consent. Even if the position itself is a technicality to ensure that Perrin will lead TR.

[MasterAblar]

Why would Rand accept this deal if it means he has to swear fealty to Elayne? She gave it to him as his seat in Andor I think. I honestly don't know what that entails regarding Elayne and the crown, but I don't see how that could make Rand a subject of Andor.

 

Elayne is the love of his life, is having his children, and has bonded him as a warder. I doubt a small formality such as swearing fealty to her would bother him much, especially considering that it's for the good of the TR and Andor(maintaining the peace and such). And Rand was already a subject of Andor.

 

So would giving for example Darlin land in Andor mean Darlin would have to swear fealty to Elayne? It all just seems rather odd to me. Having the dragon reborn, King of Illian, etc, etc swearing fealty to anyone just seems rather bizarre.

[Ashandarei]

So would giving for example Darlin land in Andor mean Darlin would have to swear fealty to Elayne? It all just seems rather odd to me.

 

I'm no expert on monarchies and lordships etc but my understanding of it is that if say Darlin was given land in Andor, he would either have to refuse it or accept it and swear fealty to Elayne. Can't exactly have lords in your kingdom that aren't under the king/queen's rule.

[LadyWordsmith]

 

I'm no expert on monarchies and lordships etc but my understanding of it is that if say Darlin was given land in Andor, he would either have to refuse it or accept it and swear fealty to Elayne. Can't exactly have lords in your kingdom that aren't under the king/queen's rule.

 

Good point!

 

If I may interject a little research and suggested application (I wrote a graduate paper on fealty once. There's a lot of great stuff out there in original source material):

 

It varies by kingdom and historical time period (depending on which one Jordan decided to model it after. But given Andor is pretty blatantly Arthurian Legend based England... let's go with that as an example. England, France and a lot of Europe adopted that particular model around the same time), fealty can be sworn to any leige lord, they don't 'have' to be a king. Oaths of fealty are taken between a squire and a knight, as well as with knights and kings. It was even possible (and often happened) in the middle ages that oaths of fealty to your local lord COULD outrank your oath of fealty to your monarch (depending on to whom you were sworn first and what those oaths entailed. Since they are not always the same). This became less common in Europe as kings decided they did not like having subjects who could fight for local landed nobility 'before' they had to answer the call of their king. (England's own history, as well as many other countries, will tell you that having standing armies that don't belong to the crown inside a kingdom are a bad idea.)

 

But yes, anyone holding a landed title within a kingdom was expected (historically speaking) to swear fealty to the ruling monarch over that land. The important thing to remember about oaths of fealty though, is that they are not usually 'absolute obedience.' They are individual from pair to pair, and there are normally promises made in both directions. (Which means, incidentally, that if a King didn't keep his promises, the people who swore to him were not technically required to keep theirs).

 

So, applying this to WoT: We have seen people swearing to crowns in most of the Kingdoms we have dealt with in the Wheel of Time over the course of the books (mostly as Rand collects kingdoms, or Kings who have sworn to follow HIM.... even if he doesn't take over control of that land). It doesn't matter in several cases that Rand is not 'the' King himself, he is someone to whom other royals have sworn allegiance to follow into battle. In this case, I'm pretty sure the critical element of those oaths has been "Fight for me against the Dark One and stop fighting 'me' and I'll stop him."

 

The oaths are about as tricky as the oaths we have seen Aes Sedai take, especially since none of these oaths of fealty have been done with anything so binding as the Oath Rod. But yes, Darlin would have to give 'some' kind of Oath (in theory) to Elayne for lands given. That oath may simply be "I promise not to aid anyone in invading your land or overthrowing your crown." It doesn't have to be a giving over of full obedience, or any other titles elsewhere.

[Muad Cheade]

So would giving for example Darlin land in Andor mean Darlin would have to swear fealty to Elayne? It all just seems rather odd to me.

 

I'm no expert on monarchies and lordships etc but my understanding of it is that if say Darlin was given land in Andor, he would either have to refuse it or accept it and swear fealty to Elayne. Can't exactly have lords in your kingdom that aren't under the king/queen's rule.

If Darlin took the lordship, he would be subservient to Elayne as a lord of Andor. As the king of Tear, he's independent and Elayne's equal. Two sides of the same coin.

[Nooska]

Actually, being made Lord (of any sort) does not require an oath of fealty in any way, shape or form. The making of a lordship is historically done by decree of the monarch (prince, duke, king or emperor - by regional variation or genderized). A decree of this sort would usually be given together with teh searing of an oath of some sort, but one does not require the other.

Elayne has made T2R a lordship under Rand Al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn, as his Seat in Andor. Rand won't need to swear an oath or accept it for it to be thus, it is thus by the decree.

The taking of oath is required only when the person made lord is done so by induction into an order - where the oath is required for induction to the order, and the lordship comes from being a member of said order - a lordship here is, for example, a knighthood (we have seen no distinguishing between rank in titulation - excepting Tear where there are Lords and High Lords). Another induction to an order that grants a lordship (though not a landed lordship) is the Children of the Light's Lords Captain rank.

 

The swearing of fealty is not an issue in what obligations and rights are conferred by the lordship made - these are a seperate issue, but you do not need to accept a title to be a lord (case in point, Prince of the Ravens and Mats "you wouldn't dare" comment to Elayne about making him a lord)