Bonding Rand..what terrible idea..

[Tud]

Hello everyone,

 

I was walking my dog earlier this morning and started mulling over the section of TOM that deals with Elayne. Normally, I can tolerate her storyline, but sometimes her actions really annoy me. In particular,throughout the entirity of the series, her comments and attitude towards Mat have always grated. Grousing about that got me thinking about how increibly selfish she has been over the past several books.I mean all she has been focused on was winning the throne of Andor (something that's good for her, but doesn't really help anyone else..At least not directly). Then, when you think of it, she really is focused on those things that she wants. Look at the other women in the series. They all spend the majority of their time trying to help others and prepare for the Last Battle. Even Faile grows up from being like Elayne to being determined to help Perrin and her charges. Elayne? Not even once has she done something that wasn't of benefit to her.

 

And from there, I moved onto the thought that bonding Rand was also incredibly selfish. And a really terible idea.

 

Here's what i'm talking about. While it is true that bonding Rand meant (to the best of anyone's knowledge) that she, Min and Aviendha will end up bonded to a man fated to go insane and die, what about what happens to Rand if any one of the three of them dies? The Dragon Reborn,the only hope of the world becomes obsessed with hunting down her killer to the exclusion of everything else. Does the world really need that to happen during Tarmon Gaidon? Now, in fairness, you can excuse both Min and Aviendha because not being Aes Sedai, they'd have no idea what effect the bond canhave on a warder, but Elayne knew.She knew what would happen to him and what a risk that would represent to the light. I mean all the Shadow would need to do would be to kill anyone of the three and they'd have a huge advantage. What an incredible vulnerability to saddle Rand (and the rest of the world) with. For her, there is no such excuse.Just anoher example of her selfishness.

 

Am I missing something here or do I just not get it?

 

tud

[Exy]

The most powerful country in the Westlands being politically united under a strong leader rather than consumed in a foolish power struggle at a time like this is beneficial both to its citizens and to the light side.

[NetSlider]

Hello everyone,

 

I was walking my dog earlier this morning and started mulling over the section of TOM that deals with Elayne. Normally, I can tolerate her storyline, but sometimes her actions really annoy me. In particular,throughout the entirity of the series, her comments and attitude towards Mat have always grated. Grousing about that got me thinking about how increibly selfish she has been over the past several books.I mean all she has been focused on was winning the throne of Andor (something that's good for her, but doesn't really help anyone else..At least not directly). Then, when you think of it, she really is focused on those things that she wants. Look at the other women in the series. They all spend the majority of their time trying to help others and prepare for the Last Battle. Even Faile grows up from being like Elayne to being determined to help Perrin and her charges. Elayne? Not even once has she done something that wasn't of benefit to her.

 

And from there, I moved onto the thought that bonding Rand was also incredibly selfish. And a really terible idea.

 

Here's what i'm talking about. While it is true that bonding Rand meant (to the best of anyone's knowledge) that she, Min and Aviendha will end up bonded to a man fated to go insane and die, what about what happens to Rand if any one of the three of them dies? The Dragon Reborn,the only hope of the world becomes obsessed with hunting down her killer to the exclusion of everything else. Does the world really need that to happen during Tarmon Gaidon? Now, in fairness, you can excuse both Min and Aviendha because not being Aes Sedai, they'd have no idea what effect the bond canhave on a warder, but Elayne knew.She knew what would happen to him and what a risk that would represent to the light. I mean all the Shadow would need to do would be to kill anyone of the three and they'd have a huge advantage. What an incredible vulnerability to saddle Rand (and the rest of the world) with. For her, there is no such excuse.Just anoher example of her selfishness.

 

Am I missing something here or do I just not get it?

 

tud

 

Just one correction - one of four. But yeah, you pretty much got it right. Oh, one more thing - her bond with Rand needs to be passed or destroyed (if possible) and she should die (during childbirth or something)!

[Feral]

I believe some think Rand would not be affected by Warder madness, due to the fact he can channel and also possibly because he is bonded to so many.

 

EDIT: Just thought that even if what I just said is true, I'm not sure Elayne would know about it. So actually it could still be a stupid and selfish thing to do.

[RyanDuranGeiger]

Pretty sure that without the veins of gold Rand would've went (more) insane and probably would've destroyed the world.

[capuga]

Yes, I agree. I've always thought bonding Rand was incredibly dumb although I usually focus my anger at Alanna. She did it just to control him, not out of love. And the possibility of someone in the Battle Ajah dying during these times is fairly high. So she put Rand and the world at terrible risk just because she thought he needed a leash (and she thought she was somehow in any way qualified hold it). The fact that Rand has received some unintended beneficial side effects - the increased physical endurance, the feelings of love from his girlfriends - does not excuse the studipity of risking Rand going into a suicidal rage before the Last Battle if you die.

[NetSlider]

Yes, I agree. I've always thought bonding Rand was incredibly dumb although I usually focus my anger at Alanna. She did it just to control him, not out of love. And the possibility of someone in the Battle Ajah dying during these times is fairly high. So she put Rand and the world at terrible risk just because she thought he needed a leash (and she thought she was somehow in any way qualified hold it). The fact that Rand has received some unintended beneficial side effects - the increased physical endurance, the feelings of love from his girlfriends - does not excuse the studipity of risking Rand going into a suicidal rage before the Last Battle if you die.

 

Let's not forget that that b%&*t is BA

 

Just kidding! But no, really...::serious face and nods his head::

[buckeyebull64]

I think it's more denial than selfishness. She likes Rand, Min and Avi, and won't even consider the posiblility that any of them might get killed. As for the other, it may not be selfish to do so, more like stubborn, but Elyane seems to have have a thing about competing with her mother. This is why we have the whole succession story line. She IS the daughter-hier, unlike her mother, so just take the sheep-kissing (thank you Uno) throne and lend a hand. I can kind of picture Rand yelling at her and Perrin (you really cant get a secret message back to Rand to ask for a few specialists for getting your wife free? come on!): "Hey! The rest of us are a bit busy here, so let's get a move on!"

[Safia al-Maaz]

I feel like it's almost a moot point to try to figure out how the bonds will affect Rand, since I don't think anyone really knows. People have suggested that Rand would not go mad if one of his ladies dies because he can channel, but that does not mean he will not be debilitated by grief, just as the Aes'Sedai are. But the point still stands that without the bonds, Rand probably would have gone completely insane, and though this would be an interesting plot twist, I doubt it would have turned out well. I'm just waiting for Elayne to die, since she is so convinced she is not going to. I really don't want her to though, this is the first book where she has even started to behave in an adult-like manner towards others, especially Mat. Honestly though, I really don't want any of his ladies to die (excluding Alanna, as I really don't care about her), because poor Rand needs a break.

[Darth Krewl]

Interesting thread...and true, from a certain POV...

 

Personally, I can't stand Elayne (or any of her relatives, for that matter) so, my opinion will be probably biased.

 

Thing's that I almost gave up on this whole series, when I read that whole chapter leading up to Elayne's bonding of Rand (and his other 2 lovers, to boot). I hated it because I feel that Min betrayed his trust. There's a reason why Rand traveled "incognito" into the Royal Palace: not to have anyone recognize him and go straight to Elayne to let her know that he was there. Yet, what does Min do? Go straight to Elayne to let her know that he was there! If I were Rand, I'd have Min banished on the spot, because, if she's already betrayed my trust once, she could break under torture and do it again, if captured by one of my many, very dangerous enemies. Especially, taking into consideration that we're talking about cold-hearted, hard-as-nails, paranoid Rand at that point.

 

The other thing that bothered me to no end was seeing how this airhead of a spoiled Daughter-heir could even contemplate bonding Rand as...her Warder! Now, I may be wrong but, as far as I can remember, all nobles of the Randland had to learn the Karaethon Cycle by heart. And, unless Mr. Jordan was planning on showing us a specific passage of the Prophecies stating that the Dragon Reborn would be bound to the White Lion or something along those lines, I seriously doubt that the Dragon Reborn would have the time to save the world AND protect the Aes Sedai/Queen of Andor, all at the same time. Not to mention bending knee to her, since the DR isn't supposed to bend knee to any ruler. Quite the opposite, in fact.

 

Now, I also hate the way Elayne treats Mat (and how she feels about Perrin) and I do hope she doesn't make it alive at the end (seriously!) but, I guess that's besides the point. Thing's that I don't believe her idea to bond Rand was that terrible (stupid? Yes. But not terrible, when one thinks of the advantages this might represent for her). I believe that the terrible idea was for Rand to give into it. I was totally disappointed when I read that he agreed to go along with it, since I was thoroughly convinced that, after Alanna, he wouldn't let anyone bond him ever again (sorta like the box making him distrust all Aes Sedai).

[David Selig]

First of all, given Rand's personality, he'd have probably have gone obsessed with hunting down the killer of one of his girlfriends to the exclusion of everything else even if he wasn't bonded. Look how mad he got when he heard Elayne's mother got killed - he risked everything to kill Rahvin ASAP.

 

Second, Rand agreed with that. He knows the risks and it's his choice.

 

Third, as already said, he went to the very edge of madness and was almost dead a few times even with the support of the Warder bond. He'd probably be insane or dead if not for it. I doubt it's a coincidence that his epiphany chapter on TGS is named "Veins of Gold", which is the expression Aviendha and Elayne to describe his feelings for them which they sensed through the bond.

 

The other thing that bothered me to no end was seeing how this airhead of a spoiled Daughter-heir could even contemplate bonding Rand as...her Warder! Now, I may be wrong but, as far as I can remember, all nobles of the Randland had to learn the Karaethon Cycle by heart. And, unless Mr. Jordan was planning on showing us a specific passage of the Prophecies stating that the Dragon Reborn would be bound to the White Lion or something along those lines, I seriously doubt that the Dragon Reborn would have the time to save the world AND protect the Aes Sedai/Queen of Andor, all at the same time. Not to mention bending knee to her, since the DR isn't supposed to bend knee to any ruler. Quite the opposite, in fact.

It's quite clear that in this case having would only mean they are bonded, not that Rand would be Elayne's Warder in traditional sense and have to stay with her all the time. She knows what he has to do and how much work all around the world he has. And after the bonding, they've been separated ever since, both taking care of their own business, and there hasn't been a single thought of Elayne along the lines of "I need my Warder Rand here to protect me and order him around".

[Darth Krewl]

It's quite clear that in this case having would only mean they are bonded, not that Rand would be Elayne's Warder in traditional sense and have to stay with her all the time. She knows what he has to do and how much work all around the world he has. And after the bonding, they've been separated ever since, both taking care of their own business, and there hasn't been a single thought of Elayne along the lines of "I need my Warder Rand here to protect me and order him around".

 

I'm not talking about the actual bonding that took place in Elayne's room. That was a different thing to the traditional Warder binding...er, bonding, I mean. I'm talking about countless lines before that (and even after the actual bonding of Rand and the three girls, IIRC) where Elayne explicitly fantasizes with having Rand bonded as her own Warder in the traditional sense. If I'm not mistaken, the girl goes as far as thinking that, since she was going to be Green, having already bonded Birgitte wouldn't be a problem if/when bonding Rand as another Warder.

 

The fact remains that Elayne did want to bond Rand as her Warder, regardless of that special bond she forged with him, Min and Aviendha. I don't have the books with me right now to search for a quote, but the pattern is there, it's clear as daylight and, I for one, found it extremely annoying every time I read it 'cause of how ridiculous I found the notion. That's precisely the reason why I recall this detail so well.

[David Selig]

Elayne wanted to bond Rand as a Warder, certainly, but I don't recall any indications that she intended for him to stay next to her at all times in the role of a traditional Warder instead of doing the Dragon's job (what you objected to in the first place). She loved him and wanted the additional closeness the bond brings, that's it.

Her behaviour after the bonding proves it.

 

If I'm not mistaken, the girl goes as far as thinking that, since she was going to be Green, having already bonded Birgitte wouldn't be a problem if/when bonding Rand as another Warder.

Yes, because otherwise the Tower Law would've prevented her from bonding Rand at all, no matter whether she intended to have him stay in the traditional role of Warder or not.

[Darth Krewl]

Elayne wanted to bond Rand as a Warder, certainly, but I don't recall any indications that she intended for him to stay next to her at all times in the role of a traditional Warder instead of doing the Dragon's job (what you objected to in the first place). She loved him and wanted the additional closeness the bond brings, that's it.

Her behaviour after the bonding proves it.

 

Well, David, I guess we're gonna agree to disagree on this one.

 

It seems to me like your argument, while valid and respectable, is based on personal interpretation. As is mine, of course. I just don't recall RJ specifying Elayne's expectations for Rand and I do know that Warders can be miles away from their Aes Sedai for long periods of time. But I still believe that her wanting him as a Warder - in the literal sense of the term - is extremely foolish of her.

 

We're not talking about any mere mortal here, after all. We're talking about the Dragon Reborn. Wanting him as a husband's one thing. Wanting him as a bodyguard, is a completely different animal altogether. At least IMHO. To me, it's just part of an intentional pattern that RJ used to exemplify how everyone wanted to control Rand in one way or another. Everyone wanted a piece of him. And, IMO, this was just Elayne's way of expressing that desire; a mere fantasy, normal to any girl in her late teens, which Elayne is, of course. Regardless of what she might've done as Aes Sedai/Queen, she's still a young woman, prone to indulging in such innocent, albeit impossible, dreams.

 

Yes, because otherwise the Tower Law would've prevented her from bonding Rand at all, no matter whether she intended to have him stay in the traditional role of Warder or not.

 

Glad to see we do agree on this one hehehe...

[David Selig]

Sure, it's not 100% clear what Elayne's intentions were at first. But we know that after Elayne bonded Rand, she didn't tell him anything like "I need to you to protect me now" or "You should protect the three of us from now as a Warder". They got separated shortly after and I don't recall a single time before or after that she's thought something like "I wish Rand was here to protect me" or "Where's that woolheaded Warder of mine, I need him here to boss him around". She never tried to use the bond to make Rand do anything to help her personally or politically. She knows he has hugely important responsibilities and don't expect him to put that aside to be her bodyguard. Both of them clearly put responsibility and duty first.

 

Besides we've been shown time and time again during the series that about the last thing Elayne wants are bodyguards of any kind, which has gotten her in trouble a few times. She only tolerates them when absolutely necessary.

[Exy]

Regardless of what she might've done as Aes Sedai/Queen, she's still a young woman, prone to indulging in such innocent, albeit impossible, dreams.

If it's an innocent, impossible dream, then I don't see what's so foolish about it. If circumstances had been different, I'm sure she would have wanted him to be her warder and her bodyguard as she ruled in Caemlyn, but she certainly didn't ever show any signs of thinking that would happen.

[Darth Krewl]

Sure, it's not 100% clear what Elayne's intentions were at first. But we know that after Elayne bonded Rand, she didn't tell him anything like "I need to you to protect me now" or "You should protect the three of us from now as a Warder". They got separated shortly after and I don't recall a single time before or after that she's thought something like "I wish Rand was here to protect me" or "Where's that woolheaded Warder of mine, I need him here to boss him around". She never tried to use the bond to make Rand do anything to help her personally or politically. She knows he has hugely important responsibilities and don't expect him to put that aside to be her bodyguard. Both of them clearly put responsibility and duty first.

 

Besides we've been shown time and time again during the series that about the last thing Elayne wants are bodyguards of any kind, which has gotten her in trouble a few times. She only tolerates them when absolutely necessary.

 

As I've already said, Elayne's intentions are a matter of personal interpretation. Let's not forget that Min and Aviendha were also bonded. In that case, this would mean that Elayne could also be expecting the other 2 girls to be her Warders and that's not what I'm saying. Never said that particular bonding was for Rand (Min or Aviendha, for that matter) to become her Warders. I said that Elayne fantasized, time and again, with bonding Rand as her Warder, which is completely different, IMO.

 

RE: Elayne knowing about Rand's responsibilities. I've never questioned that. I've just said that, in my very personal and honest opinion, thinking about bonding the Dragon Reborn as a Warder is as foolish, as thinking of controlling him, like every other Aes Sedai in the series has attempted to do. IMO, this is just another way for RJ to illustrate this very point.

 

RE: Elayne not wanting any bodyguards. Again, to me, this is open to interpretation. 'cause what I get here is that she hates being told what she can and can't do, 'cause of how reckless she is and this applies to everything the girl does. Proof of this is that she also HATES to have a midwife and all that Melfane (I guess that's the midwife's name) tells her to do, but does it anyway 'cause she knows she must. Anyone in a position of power would understand the need for servants, lest they're even stupider than Elayne. And, IMO, that's saying a lot.

 

If it's an innocent, impossible dream, then I don't see what's so foolish about it. If circumstances had been different, I'm sure she would have wanted him to be her warder and her bodyguard as she ruled in Caemlyn, but she certainly didn't ever show any signs of thinking that would happen.

 

IMO, Elayne's foolishness lies on the fact that she's supposed to be a well-educated noble, from one of the most powerful families in the entire Western lands. Therefore, the girl should know her Karaethon Cycle and should know much better than to expect bonding the Dragon Reborn as her Warder. I've never said I've got anything against her falling in love with Rand and bonding him for this very reason. Again, I find her idea to bond Rand as her Warder, as yet another example of how people - Aes Sedai, especially - have tried to find a way to control and manipulate the Dragon Reborn throughout the whole series. After all, there's a reason why Rand has remained very mindful of this fact, ever since Moiraine, not letting anyone do that very thing to him.

[Exy]

IMO, Elayne's foolishness lies on the fact that she's supposed to be a well-educated noble, from one of the most powerful families in the entire Western lands. Therefore, the girl should know her Karaethon Cycle and should know much better than to expect bonding the Dragon Reborn as her Warder. I've never said I've got anything against her falling in love with Rand and bonding him for this very reason. Again, I find her idea to bond Rand as her Warder, as yet another example of how people - Aes Sedai, especially - have tried to find a way to control and manipulate the Dragon Reborn throughout the whole series. After all, there's a reason why Rand has remained very mindful of this fact, ever since Moiraine, not letting anyone do that very thing to him.

I don't see any sign that she's trying to control him. (If she were, would she decide to split that control three ways, including with someone she barely knows?) She just wants to be linked to him. The warder gets certain benefits from the bond as well -- unusual stamina and resistance to injury, greater fighting skills -- it's to his benefit to have these advantages.

[Darth Krewl]

I don't see any sign that she's trying to control him. (If she were, would she decide to split that control three ways, including with someone she barely knows?) She just wants to be linked to him. The warder gets certain benefits from the bond as well -- unusual stamina and resistance to injury, greater fighting skills -- it's to his benefit to have these advantages.

 

Well, like I told David, I guess Elayne's intentions are open to interpretation. Granted, she's never been openly seen as trying to control Rand, the way that Egwene, Nynaeve, Cadsuane, Moiraine, Siuan and Elaida have tried. But IMO, this is a recurring theme in the story and it only makes sense. Because, given Rand's huge responsibility, I believe everyone would be wanting to make sure that he fulfills his destiny. Otherwise, they'd all be pretty much toast. Doesn't mean that I like it but I do understand it.

 

And, while we've all seen examples of a Warder disagreeing with his Aes Sedai through Lan's interaction with Moiraine, he usually ends up deferring to her every time. Remember, Lan didn't agree with many of Moiraine's decisions early in TEOTW, but he ended up yielding to her. So, IMO, should Rand accept to become Elayne's Warder, that means he'd have to be willing to defer to her.

 

As for the Warder bond, I've never liked it, either. IMO, I don't see Warders as the greatest warriors overall. Gawyn has clearly demonstrated to be their equal at least, and I also would put Mat and Perrin at their level, if not above. Not to mention the Aiel, whom to me, are the top combatants in the WoT universe and have as much stamina and resistance as to run alongside horses for miles!

 

I could be wrong, of course. But this is how I understand the Aes Sedai-Warder relation. In fact, I don't remember reading anywhere that the Aes Sedai of the AOL (the TRUE Aes Sedai to me. The Third Agers are, as the Forsaken have said, mere children compared to their colleagues from the AOL) bonded anyone as a Warder. I believe this is because freedom and democracy were the rule of the AOL, whereas the Third Age is a medieval caste-like system. Because, IMO, bonding is a a form of binding someone to your will and I for one, would never accept it.

 

So, any advantages one may gain through the Warder bond are pretty much canceled out by what you have to give in return. For someone who values freedom and independence above all things, letting oneself be bonded as a Warder has got to be one of the worst ways to lose that freedom...especially taking into consideration whom you've got to serve. No wonder Warders are so gruff and grumpy! I'd be the same if I had to be at an Aes Sedai service 24-7-365 lol! But, again, that's just me.

[Guest MMarsden]

While I agree that the bonding was an incredibly stupid idea, what with the risk of Elayne, Min or Avi dying before TG, but bear in mind those chicks are teenagers in love. Teenagers are not the greatest at thinking their actions through, but teenagers in love are not capable of thinking about their actions at all. I mean, I am a normally a sensible person, but when I was 18 I climbed up to a 10th storey balcony to profess my undying love. This was undoubtedly a terrible idea, but I was in love so the consequences never even crossed my mind!

 

P.S. I hope Elayne gets sucked into the DO's prison when it gets sealed up for eternity to teach the stuck up bint a bit of humility. Doubt it would work though.

[blazetheearth]

In fact, I don't remember reading anywhere that the Aes Sedai of the AOL (the TRUE Aes Sedai to me. The Third Agers are, as the Forsaken have said, mere children compared to their colleagues from the AOL) bonded anyone as a Warder.

 

The Warder Bond was unknown during the AoL. We find this out from Semirhage's PoV when she is torturing Cabrianna Mercandes. Semi is baffled by it and wonders how these "children" came up with some of the things that they have, things that were unknown even in her Age. And she wishes she had more time so that she could explore the Warder Bond more fully.

 

I don't think that losing any one of the 4 bond-holders would send Rand into a Death Rage. And really this is only because we know that he is the first Warder to ever hold the bond of more than one woman, at the same time. The act of El/Avi/Min bonding him knocked Alanna out for three days, and no one could figure out what had happened to her until he told her in FM. Plus with no example of how a Bonded Asha'man takes loosing his AS (referring to Asha'man bonded to AS, not Logain's crew with AS bonded to them), we really cannot say what effect Rand being a channeler will have. On the other hand, we don't know if the reason that AS don't do through the Death Rage when a warder dies is a function of how the webs are spun, or if it is connected to the fact they can channel.

 

All that being said, I agree that the act of Bonding him was selfish, but it has to be laid squarely at Rand's feet also. He had the option of saying "No, because the world would not survive if I went into a Death Rage." But he didn't. Equally selfish. He wanted them bond him, and all of his thoughts were on how it would hurt them in the end, not about how them dying would affect him.

 

I say that if anybody want to place the blame for irresponsible, selfish action make sure it gets spread to ALL of the willing participants.

 

BTW: I agree Elayne should spend the next couple of turning of the Wheel trapped in with the DO.

[Darth Krewl]

The Warder Bond was unknown during the AoL. We find this out from Semirhage's PoV when she is torturing Cabrianna Mercandes. Semi is baffled by it and wonders how these "children" came up with some of the things that they have, things that were unknown even in her Age. And she wishes she had more time so that she could explore the Warder Bond more fully.

 

BTW: I agree Elayne should spend the next couple of turning of the Wheel trapped in with the DO.

 

Right. I didn't remember the exact scene, but I did remember that the Warder bond was not in use/known during the AoL. I mean, to be perfectly fair, it's the common folk who should get bodyguards to protect themselves from channelers and not the the other way around lol! But, given it's bonding (no pun intended) nature, I can see how this would pique Semirhage's interest so much....how much damage can you inflict on a mind that is bonded to your will?

 

As for your last comment, oh yeah...and, after that, the Wheel should spin her out as an enslaved belly dancer for Jabba the Hutt for another turn or two.

[mb]

Aviendha & Min might have had some idea what effect the bonding might have had on a warder. Aviendha from being acquainted with Lan. Min from her times at the White Tower and from her time spent with the rebel Aes Sedia.

Also, Elayne discussed the bonding with them.

 

Since Rand cleansed Saidin, his madness will not increase. And I take his insanity was completely removed during his Dragonmount experience.

 

Bad idea or not, Egwene had a Dream of the 3 doing it sometime before it happened; so the Pattern meant for them to do it.

And the bond seems implied to some of Min's first Viewings.