I definitely agree regarding Nynaeve and Setalle Anan. That felt like a plotline (among several) that just fizzled out.

On 1/29/2024 at 9:07 AM, DojoToad said:

I've never understood the 'it is a different turning' perspective.  If it is a different turning, change the names of the characters.  Would make it easier to swallow the other story changes because the differences in the adaptation from the book would be more obvious - for me at least.

I agree. Whether or not you enjoy it, the show was always going to be different than the books--there's no nead for creative justifications.

Lan and Moiraine post ToG--it happened, but offscreen.

Rand and Galad--again it happened, but we don't see it from either POV.

Cadsuane and Egwene.

Morgase and Thom. Throw in Elayne, Mat and Basil Gill for a real party.

7 hours ago, Samt said:

Does it ever say how old Faile is?  I always assumed she was roughly the same age as Perrin.  
 

And Berelain starts the series in her early twenties.  She’s barely a bit older than the main characters.  As far as experience and travel, Faile is the one traveling on her own.  They both grew up in a royal court and were raised to navigate tricky politics.

Faile is 14/15 at the start of the series, 16/17 when she marries Perrin, and 17/18 in AMoL. I presume they'll age her up for the show like they did with Egwene. (For reference, Egwene and Elayne are 16 at the start of the books.)

3 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I also think it is important to realise that it is the change of author that is the main issue, not Sanderson himself. 

That's a good way of putting it. I'm not overly fond of the other Brandon Sanderson books I've read, but I completely agree that any author would have resulted in similar issues in this case. He and team Jordan were handed an impoosible task and did the best they could under the cirucmstances. (Although I do think there should have been some more careful editing.)

My point is that we should accept (to some degree) that the final 3 books to have more irregularities than the rest, which means we can't really analyze them like we did the first 11.

29 minutes ago, Aan-Alone said:

From my point-of-view, this speculation is what leads to a deeper personal understanding of and connection with the series. Especially on re-reads. And provides fodder to share/discuss. I guess fruit is in the eye of the beholder?

I wholeheartedly agree for the first 11 books. The last 3 pose a problem, however, since the author change introduced a number of plot tangles and inconsistencies. No matter how much we analyze TGS, ToM and AMoL, we just can't be sure what was planned and what was invented out of necessity.

The fundamental problem is that we can never be sure what was intended. RJ himself dropped, mutated or retconned various elements of the story and lore to suit the shifting scope of his story. It's fun, but ultimately futile for us to speculate how the inconsistencies and oddities of the last three books fit into the pattern. I expect this is why there was far less dicussion post AMoL than with the earlier books.

For my part, I mostly shrug off things like Nakomi, Rand lighting his pipe, the male Aiel channelers, etc. I don't like them from a storytelling perspective--new quirks introduced right at the end often fall flat--but they also had minimal impact on anything.

In fact, Aviendha's second trip through the columns was anticlimactic because AMoL didn't have a proper denouement (which IMO is criminal for such a long series). I suspect it was setup for the planned outrigger novels that never happened.

I have more problems with Demandred's scheme with Shara, the whole Graendal/Perrin plot, and the utter lack of resolution of Fain!Mashadar. These went way beyond falling flat--they were complete face plants.

For contrast, the Ashendarei was a masterful use of foreshadowing and resolution. Olver sounding the Horn was another great one.

Years ago I speculated that the bubbles of evil and shifting environments were the result of the barriers between the real world and T'A'R breaking down. Following that line of thought, what Rand does at the end feels a lot like a Dreamer's manipulation of T'A'R, or that reality isn't quite as solid (anymore?) as everyone assumes.

And although it's a metaphor, the Aiel have always described death as waking from the dream.

Whether or not you subscribe to my pet theory or not, we have a plethora of weird Talents and effects (Wolfbrothers, Min, Singing, Luck, The Horn of Valere, etc.) that aren't directly tied to channeling or the OP.

(I personally disliked Rand lighting his pipe like that, not because it was weird, but because it felt completely unnecessary.)

5 minutes ago, Bugglesley said:

I don't know if you can blame this on Brando Sando; she's a bully from the start. She's so obnoxious upon her introduction that all-time MVP Verin considers straight up murdering her when they're in Far Madding, before confirming she really is just trying to push Rand on the path to winning TG.

Verin only considers murdering her becuase she worries Cadsuane's impact would be bad for Rand and the Light side--and she doesn't go through with it when she learns Cadsuane's intent (see below).

5 minutes ago, Bugglesley said:

The books are chock-full of people doing otherwise awful things they feel are necessary; not least of which is Rand himself! There is more than one PoV chapter in the RJ books from Caddy where she really clearly lays out how she believes that Rand has to be "brought in hand" and taught "how to behave" before he can win. Like I said, there are levels to the irony how she doesn't see that her methods are ineffective and how her experience doesn't exactly apply to this situation and how, broadly, she's making many of the exact errors it's so easy for her to see in Rand. That's what makes it interesting!

Cadsuane certainly wasn't a bully in the early books, assuming you define 'bully' to be someone forcing others down merely to feel powerful. Cadusance used various tactics--some agressive, some manipulative, some honest and straightforward--depending on the circumstances. Her primary goal was always to make Rand and the Asha'man see themselves as humans rather than weapons. Part of her strategy was making Rand treat others with courtesy and respect, at a time when he was rapidly devolving into an authoritarian dictator.

I (finally) finished watching season 2 and have been thinking about Moiraine's arc, which, along with giving her and Lan more to do at this point in the story, also reveals some interesting nuances.

Moiraine's reaction is very Aes Sedai: meekly accept what has happened and move forward. This attitude is definitely a problem for the Aes Sedai in the books, and a big reason why their use of the OP has stagnated. By contrast, Lan's reaction is very Malkieri; keep fighting despite the (supposed) certainty of defeat.

On a related note, knotting weaves is a lost (or very rare) skill, which is a nice, non-flashy way to emphasize how much more skill/knowledge the FS have. Also, being shielded has a far stronger physical affect than in the books--almost like withdrawal symptoms.

On 1/11/2024 at 5:33 PM, Mirefox said:

Some people can’t taste the subtleties between different glasses of wine and are happy with a mediocre house red.

 

Some people don’t know the difference between a prime cut of beef and chuck and are happy with whatever steak they are served.

 

Some people can’t differentiate the tone of a show with its basic plot map and are happy with whatever they’re served as long as point A and point B are the same.

 

Others are more sensitive to subtle and non-tangible change and recognize how it alters the end product.

Some people also accept that different things each have strengths and weaknesses and can appreciate them for what they are.

I'd never say the show is perfect; I'd also never say the books are a perfect. I enjoy (most of) the book version of the story more, but I also think the show has made some very good decisiions--alongside questionable ones--given the medium and constraints it's under.

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

I liked Cadsuane fine until her confrontation with Tam in the Stone when he exposed her as the bully she was - not that there weren't hints before, but it couldn't be ignored after that.  Part of being Aes Sedai is being a bully with words and the Tower mystique to get stuff done without resorting to sword or the Power.  In the end, I think she just went too far.  Still a badass character, just because I dislike her as a 'person' doesn't mean she isn't awesome/imposing in her own way.

I think some of Cadsuane's questionabile behaviour in the final books is due to the author change. From a bird's eye view her decisions make sense, but her interactions with other characters feel somewhat off.

Katharine Hepburn... 

I think it's fairly well (if not obviously) established that Taim was never meant to be Demandred, or any Forsaken. First, he has at least some history in Saldaea (and was captured by Aes Sedai). Second, Dashiva was the Shadow agent at the Black Tower.

(That being said, I found Demandred's ultimate reveal to be lackluster, and inserting an entirely new society at the last minute was extremely clumsy. That could also be due to the replacement author.)

I'll echo Elgee in liking Cadsuane--except for her out-of-the-blue (green?) introduction. I suspect RJ realized that Moiraine was going to be gone far longer than he originally anticipated and needed someone to fill that role in Rand's development.

While I agree the breaking of Semirhage was handled a bit clumsily, I very much liked Cadsuane's realization that she, herself was likely older--and certainly had more life experience--than Semirhage did.

I started in '92 as well.

As I recall, Moridin == Ishy was pretty much assumed at the time (we're talking RAWSF-RJ era), but obviously wasn't 100% confirmed until much later.

The identities of the Watcher and the Wanderer were a little less certain (or if they were the same person), but Ishy/Moridin or Shaidar Haran were the top candidates, but one of the other male Forsaken was considered too.

5 minutes ago, 7th age said:

So what dwn said [about the weakened seals being fragile] is only true later on?

The seal they find in the Eye is still hard, but broken--we're never given an explanation for how it broke. Later seals become physically brittle. My main point was that breaking a seal didn't necessarily require using the TP. It's probably some metaphysical mix of the DO's touch being corrosive to reality and that not even cuendillar can prevent the DO from breaking free.

6 minutes ago, 7th age said:

Also, wouldnt Rand breaking the seal imply he could channel the true power even then???

I speculated earlier that maybe a tainted Saidin would be able to break Cuendillar by "overloading it with corruption", but this doesnt really work for the bookending since the pool was untainted.

In the books the weakened Seals could be broken with your fingers.

Perhaps the DO (or Ishy) needed Rand in the distorted reality of the Eye (or the blight) where the metaphysical confrontation between the Dragon and the Shadow could kick things off. The ending of TEotW is just weird, so who knows what the real reason is, if there even is one.

5 hours ago, Skipp said:

Posting this from reddit but I don't have a direct quote for the sources but this has been gathered from a number of interviews and behind the scene things.

 

 

If true we certainly had a subpar episode compared to what we should have had. 

 

While I enjoyed episode 8 it was certainly disappointing to me as a book fan but I am not going to let it impact my enjoyment of waiting for season 2.

Whether or not this is exactly what happened (and it seems likely), it's very obvious they ran into production and budget problems for the last episode. It's truly unfortunate.

I think they could have avoided some of the sillier problems with different writing/directing choices, but in the long run I can overlook that if it improves next season.

5 hours ago, Skipp said:

 

It was meant to reference the only weave you can do when you are sleeping.  If The MAN is only partially dreaming I think it would be neat that he could only weave spirit until freed.

It makes sense. In the books Ishy made some compromise (that horrified the other FS) in order to remain half-sealed, and holding onto some link to T'A'R makes sense.

4 hours ago, Skipp said:

Lots of book readers seem to be missing [Rand faced Ishy rather than the DO at the eye].

I don't understand how they missed it either. If nothing else, compare his clothing with what LTT and Latra Posae wore in the cold open--even if you don't know about Ishy and the AoL, it's clear this is just some guy from the before-times!

With this and the whole Dragon mystery, book readers (and savvy viewers) should have been able to see what was going on. The show has made many incidental changes to the lore and order of events, but the themes and overall shape of the story has been kept pretty close to the books.

2 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

 

See I've always felt that way as well. Dialogue from books can come off quite awful on screen. So why is it Lord of the Rings never felt like that to me? It's an honest question, because the dialogue there can be very grandiose and all but for some reason it just works. Maybe not for everyone I suppose, but to me it just fit the setting.

Consistency is certainly part of it, as fr85uk pointed out above, but LotR also works because they did modify parts to fit better. There's a segment in one of the commentaries/documentaries where they mention Aragorn's line is something like "by morning these hills will fair teaming with orcs", which they changed to "by morning these hills will be swarming with orcs", to modernise the language and give it more impact for film.

Now, the LoTR writers did a great job of adapting the language of the books, and it certainly benefited having Ian McKellan, Christopher Lee and Hugo Weaving around to deliver some of the more poetic lines. Yet, although there's room for improvement in WoT, I don't think the writers are doing such a terrible job with it.

11 hours ago, fra85uk said:

You can use book dialogue as Long as you are consistent with the language...if your characters talk and swear like a New-yorker, it is very weird when then you insert book dialogue.

It works sometimes--The Lion in Winter comes to mind--yet stage phrasing, cadence and theatrics often just look weird when filmed. Book dialogue is similar.

I think it's that in TV/Movies the dialogue and acting have to be coupled much more tightly lest you end up with a kind of uncanny valley situation. We accept stilted/poetic language on stage without breaking immersion because it's expected of the medium. Likewise, when reading, our minds are flexible enough to make it all fit together. In a film, it gets unnatural pretty fast.

9 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Theres also no mention that the eye of the world is not stationary in the TV series so why would Lan need to track them he could just go directly to it.

There is a suggestion of it, actually: Moiraine notes that Malkier is far closer to Tarwin's Gap than it was before. It's not particularly well written, but they're clearly going for the area around the DO's prison being all reality-shifty and whatnot.

3 minutes ago, Mailman said:

It also leads us to believe that Lan who has travelled with Moiraine for over 20 years and is considered a excellent tracker and incredible at disguising trails has not noticed the tell.

 

Simply unbelievable.

I'm not as super offended as some people seem to be, but it's definitely a bizarre writing choice. I'd have just had Lan head out after them without explanation--why wouldn't he (or Nynaeve) be able to follow Moiraine and Rand under normal circumstances?

12 hours ago, Ralph said:

Something I have found interesting, and trying to analyse for myself why it is - 

 

The few times they have taken lines straight from the books, or used book expressions, I have found them very clunky and badly performed. 

 

That includes the Lan/Nynaeve convo in Ep8, and the few times they have referred to the Light or Blood and Ashes, and even Uno

 

Valda is the only one I think has delivered those lines well, and Moiraine not so bad, but all the younger actors seem disturbed by saying them? 

 

 

A lot of book dialogue reads well, but doesn't flow properly when spoken in a TV or movie setting. You can get away with it occasionally, depending on the context and actor (typically if he/she has theatre experience), but it often sounds stilted at best. It's like how plays and musicals tend to fall apart when put to film.

29 minutes ago, Meskell said:

Can someone please explain to me what a ‘tracking tell’ is?

 

That Moiraine tells everyone who she is, where she is going and writes notes on trees to make sure people know exactly where she is at all times?

A 'tell' as in a behaviour that gives her away, like a poker 'tell'. Thus, Moiraine does something that makes her trail distinguishable from others and thereby easier to follow. How this applies to Moiraine on horeseback vs. Moiraine on foot is best not dwelled upon.

The Seanchan introduction was just kind of nonsensical. I'd have likely had the girl see the red sails on the horizon and left it there. To really give the Seanchan impact they needed to fight someone--anyone--other than an eight-year-old on an empty coast.

The redesign of the a'dam is odd as well. It's likely to better telegraph it on screen, but I don't like the way it turned out. Perhaps the collar+leash+bracelet wasn't visible enough, or posed safety/logistical problems. Also, we know the leash isn't integral to the a'dam, so maybe they'll use them in different contexts. Overall it's the same problem I have with the design of the great serpent rings: to be believable on-screen a design needs to be plausibly functional. These were visually confusing, at best.