Traditional Aes Sedai healing is non-specific; it heals everything or the patient dies. It works on infections, hangovers, and the taint from shadowspawn weapons. I don't recall a specific quote, but I presume it works on poisons as well.

So why doesn't being healed so often interfere with Egwene's doses of forkroot?

-- dwn

In the KoD epilogue Pevara and the other Reds going to bond Ashaman use a gateway to the BT. Now I know Tarna was present when Beonin demonstrated the weave for Elaida, but Elaida gave the order for it not to be shown to any sister without her approval. And Pevara doesn't show any surprise at the use of a gateway or any wonder. So I'm just wondering what's happened here?

The whole mission to the Black Tower is pretty much the Red Ajah leadership saying "Bite Me" to Elaida. Given that, I doubt Tarna is much concerned with following Elaida's orders.

-- dwn

It's not named as Compulsion, but we have this earlier in the same chapter:

“There were some in Andor who claimed the Car’a’carn spoke of this,” Edarra added. “He said that this Gaebril had been using forbidden weaves on wetlanders in the palace, twisting their minds, making them think and do as he wished.”

 

If you are asking who told Morgase that there's a Compulsion weave, no idea. Elaida, probably, or one of her teachers while she was trained in the White Tower.

 

The latter seems likely--and in fact we see Morgase refer earlier to the ability to control someone with the One Power (she thinks during her escape from Rahvin that she 'would have thought he was controlling her with the Power if she did not know better'. The reason she knows better, of course, is that 'Gaebril' is too old to be channeling and not be touched by the Taint physically or mentally).

Also this:

She raised her head and stared off into the darkness. Northward. Toward Andor. "They call it Compulsion. A dark, foul weave that removes the will from your subject. I'm not supposed to know that it exists."

 

-- ToM, An Open Gate, p. 333

-- dwn

If you go over them, you'll see RJ usually referred to other stuff like Min's viewings and Hurin's skill as 'abilities'. In written medium, there's also a distinction between 'Talent' and 'talent'.

 

Having said that, feel free to present supporting quotes. I might be misinterpreting what I read.

It could be simple confusion since in-world it's nearly always Aes Sedai who refer to 'Talents', and nearly always in the context of people who can channel. Is seeing ta'veren a Talent, a talent or an ability? Siuan calls it a Talent, but she could be wrong--on the surface it doesn't seem to be tied to channelling, and Loial could also sense ta'veren, though perhaps not in the same way. It's easy to see how Aes Sedai might link random supernatural abilities to Talents, where RJ makes a semantic distinction.

-- dwn

Actually, as we mention from time to time, a Talent is something only a channeler can have. So Perrin isn't a Dreamerwalker per se, although he can indeed enter TAR at will (if not quite as easily as Egwene does) as a wolfbrother.

Dreaming, on the other hand, is the Talent of having prophetic dreams, which he doesn't have for more than technical reasons (he does see visions in TAR, but that's not the same).

Bair cannot channel, yet she is still considered a Dreamwalker. I've never seen it claimed before that 'Talent' only applies to channeling.

-- dwn

has rand stated , to egwene or anyone else since tGS, that he actually intends to seal the bore after he breaks the seals?

 

Or is this just assumed fact because we know he was thinking about it/min&herid were researching/etc

Yes, he did, though perhaps not very clearly.

"A risk we must take. Clear away the rubble. The Bore must be opened fully again before it can be sealed.

 

-- TOM, The Amyrlin's Anger, p. 84

-- dwn

An enormous sphere made of the finest crystal on a dark hilltop. It sparkles in the light of twenty-three enormous stars. There are cracks in it and it is help together by ropes. Rand walks up with a woodsman axe and chops the ropes. The sphere breaks apart, falling to pieces and Rand shakes his head.

 

Anyone have any idea of the "twenty-three enormous stars", in Egwene's dream of Rand breaking the seals? Aiel clans plus nations of the world? 11 Clans. 4 Borderlands. 5 under Rand; Arad Doman, Andor, Cairhein, Tear and Illian. 3 Seanchan control; Altara, Amadicia and Tarabon. Then Ghealdan. That's 24 total without counting Murandy if indeed it is under Demandred.

 

Thoughts?

I'm not really sure it fits, but 21 Sitters, plus the Amyrlin and Keeper make up the White Tower leadership. Presuming the sphere is the DO's prison and the ropes are the seals, the White Tower is set up to lead the opposition to Rand's plan to break the final seals.

-- dwn

There are a lot of joke theories at Theoryland (though I've never heard of that one). Berelain=Moiraine, for example. Evil Min. And then there's Felix/Dida. You can never be sure if all his theories are a joke or if he really believes them.

I heard someone reference the Evil Min Theory somewhere & out of sheer morbid curiosity I spent hours searching for it both here & other places (including theoryland) but the closest I found was people saying things like "that's as crazy as the Evil Min Theory", never the actual theory. Do you happen to know the link to where this guy put it fourth & it was discussed?

It's before my time, so I'm not sure really. I don't pay much attention to loony theories in general. This one comes up a lot among the older members of the site, many of whom prefer lite WoT discussion. I found this from 1998, which is the year Theoryland was created, but I imagine someone posted a 'real' version of it, and it probably got eaten by the hamsters.

Once upon a time there was speculation that Min's viewing abilities were related to the Aelfinn/Eelfinn, or even that she was part *Finn herself somehow. It's possible that was one source of an "Evil Min" theory.

Three sets of slitted eyes lifted from him--reluctantly, it seemed--and studied the air above his head. Finally, the woman on the left said, "You must go to Rhuidean."

 

-- TSR, Into the Doorway, p. 176

That description sounds a lot like the Aelfinn were looking at auras around Mat, which is obviously similar to what Min does. Do a search on rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan (you can find the archives in Google Groups) if you want details.

-- dwn

The problem with Cadsuanne, is that for me she will always be in the shadow of Moiraine. This might not be completely fair, but as the AS closest to Rand (except perhaps Nynyaeve), she will be compared to Moiriane.

Now, I think it could be argued that had Moiraine went on her little holiday, Rand's personal problems would have been better. But it's also pretty safe to say that Cadsuanne couldn't meet with Rand the way Moiraine did.

 

Rand hates Aes Sedai. The only one he ever really trusted was Moiraine, and only really towards the end of her life as Rand saw it (he mentions this at some point, but I can't remember when). He was "raped" by Alanna, he was put in a box by Galina and the others, they are always trying to push and manipulate him; hell, he doesn't trust Egwene. So Cadsuanne was in a pressed position. She doesn't act like the other Aes Sedai; neither did Moiraine, and neither does Nynaeve. That's to her credit, she managed what only Moiraine really had been able to do before - knit close bonds to Rand despite being an Aes Sedai.

 

I like Cadsuanne, but I am really looking forward to Rand meeting Moiraine again. I wonder if he will pick her up and swirl her around. Wouldn't be to out of character now :)

I like Cadsuane as a character, but I agree that she will always feel a bit like a retcon, that RJ discovered that Rand needed an Aes Sedai advisor but Moiraine was going to be gone longer than anticipated. We'll obviously never know if that was truly the case, but her introduction without any prior mention felt very awkward.

-- dwn

These questions got overlooked in the deluge, so I'll take a stab at them.

1) In Winter's Heart and/or Crossroads of Twilight Elayne is thinking about the Kin and that only like a dozen are strong enough to travel. How does that make sense? Surely they can travel when linked and there are hundreds of them. It doesn't seem plausible that a) they never think about that or b) they aren't taught linking (that second is plain impossible too as some were present when using the bowl) c) Egwene never told them

Linking takes enough time and coordination that it's not used all that frequently. That's conjecture, but how many times do you put up with someone borrowing your car before you tell them to shove it?

2) Can someone explain why Elayne takes weeks to travel to Caemlyn when she could just Travel there instead (like when she returns from the meeting with the borderlanders)

She wanted to gauge the situation in Andor (and Caemlyn) before officially making her declaration for the throne.

3) They send Kin back to Seanchan controlled lands to rescue Kin and channelers. Are they taught to travel, inverting and masking their ability to channel?

The Kin use Travelling frequently during the siege of Caemlyn. Elayne also proposes that Travelling is one of the services they offer in exchange for long-term support from the crown. I don't know about inverting or masking, but sending women to various scattered towns and villages wouldn't necessarily need such heavy precautions.

4) Why doesn't Elayne recruit her houses' forces right at the start (with travelling), instead of waiting long enough for them to start to get bogged down in the snows and cut out, then start visiting the country for childs and old men?

It takes time to marshal an army, particularly when you're calling them in from their farms and villages.

5) Why does Elayne try to transport Naean and Elenia by foot when they could just take them out with gateways. She send a messenger via gateway, how hard would it be to keep that gateway open?

She's busy with solidifying her support and administering Caemlyn, and she believed a mundane prisoner transfer would suffice. It was a mistake in hindsight and Elayne does kick herself for not securing them personally.

-- dwn

OK, has anyone on these boards ever received a WOT book for Christmas? Or their birthday? Or anyday other than within a week of release? Remember, not everyone has sufficient disposable income to rush out and get themselves a hardback. Some people will wait until they get given the book.

I received my first WoT book (The Shadow Rising) for Christmas. I didn't read it for months because it was the fourth book in the series. The Christmas season is indeed important to publishers of books, movies, games, etc., and an early November release in the US is favoured due to the Thanksgiving week-end sales rush.

On the subject of proofreading, I find that typos--even the occasional saidar vs. saidin mixup--aren't all that distracting. I notice them, but they don't break the immersion beyond a hiccup. Yet there are a couple things, particularly in ToM, that do get under my skin. These could be the result of rushed editing, or they could just be part of BS's writing style.

The word 'reports' is used excessively in dialogue when describing third party information, even when the speaker isn't referring to actual, physical reports. I suspect that it's intended to indicate a kind of formality, yet it often comes across as someone (whether the author or the speaker) misusing language to sound more eloquent.

The second, again in dialogue, is when a speaker omits the subject of a sentence. A prime example of this is when Edarra speaks after Perrin wakes from destroying the dreamspike: "It is not to be done. Wouldn't have worked anyway." (ToM, Wounds, p. 598). This is again a problem of formality. A gruff, unpolished speaker might use such phrasing in informal conversation, but it sounds strange coming from Edarra (a Wise One). Many characters speak in this fashion and, to me, it usually feels inappropriate.

-- dwn

Not posted on these forums for ages.

I haven't read ToM yet either (I have ordered it, but not received it), but being called a grammar nazi on a regular basis, I couldn't let this slide. ;)

 

• [*]Pg 247 - "...rougher than the ones which have buffeted me..." - 'which' should be changed to 'than'

[*]Pg 609 - "How many was the Shadow going to take from him..." - should be 'were'

"...rougher than the ones which have buffeted me..." - 'which' should be changed to 'than' ? Hope you meant 'that', because '...rougher than the ones than have buffeted me...' doesn't sound right, does it? ;)

"How many was the Shadow going to take from him..." - should be 'were' Actually, no. Who/what performs the action in this sentence? The Shadow, not 'how many'. If the sentence had been for instance "How many were going to be taken from him...", I'd agree with you.

Usage of that/which is open to some debate; the original wording isn't necessarily wrong.

-- dwn

Here's a couple bits of TGS errata which I don't remember seeing brought up before.

During Mat's healing in TDR (Healing, p. 163), Egwene sees the fluted wand sa'angreal taken out of its case, a silk-lined wooden box. Yet in TGS, the wand is sitting loose on the top shelf of the angreal storeroom.

Also in TDR (Punishments, p. 126), Liandrin's group weren't able to break into the angreal storeroom, but did break into one where some of the small ter'angreal were kept. In TGS, all the angreal, sa'angreal and ter'angreal are apparently kept in one storeroom.

-- dwn

Judging by Egwene's POV in 'Something Wrong', Perrin's forces arrive at the Field of Merrilor at most a day or two before the meeting. Rand gets there during her POV, and Gawyn is giving her information on Perrin's forces, implying that Perrin has also just arrived.

 

-- dwn

I took it to mean she just arrived or if she was there when Perrin arrived she was spending time is her camp going, "I must remain aloof and unapproachable because I the Amirlyin Seat and every one will do what I say because of it and Elayne said Perrin will be on my side."

 

While Perrin was reminding the Dragonsworn they're Dragonsworn and the Aiel they follow the Car'a'carn. While Eggy was thinking of how awesome she was Gwayne noticed Perrin was gathering support for Rand.

I hadn't considered that. If Egwene herself had just arrived it would actually clear up most of the timeline problem with Mat (that he was in Caemlyn substantially longer than 30 days). I don't see anything in Perrin's POV in 'Gateways' to contradict it. Very nice.

-- dwn

Some more information for The Great Mat Timeline Caper:

"Anyway, you've heard the lot of it now, Perrin. That bloody Brown brought us here. Haven't seen her in over two weeks, now."

 

-- ToM, A Teaching Chamber, p. 707

This takes place right after Perrin arrives in Caemlyn, so just a few days after Veins of Gold. It doesn't add anything we didn't already work out, but it confirms that Mat arrived in Caemlyn at least 20 days before VoG.

-- dwn

Verin died the night of the Seanchan raid. That's two days before VoG.

I've corrected that in my revised timeline above. It doesn't fix the Mat problem, however.

The Elayne Timeline aligns peacefully with Mat.

It does except when we see Elayne at the T'A'R meeting from Egwene's POV.

The Field of Merrilor is a question-mark -everyone seems to have arrived early.

Judging by Egwene's POV in 'Something Wrong', Perrin's forces arrive at the Field of Merrilor at most a day or two before the meeting. Rand gets there during her POV, and Gawyn is giving her information on Perrin's forces, implying that Perrin has also just arrived.

-- dwn

Here's something that confuses me. The Black Ajah, Siuan, Leane and Nynaeve were all using copies of the dream ter'angreal--i.e. ones that only allow you to channel a minute trickle. So how were they throwing around blasts like they were in the Dream Battle?

 

Since nearly everyone was using copies Elayne had made, they were mostly on an equal footing. Another point is that they weren't using weaves that directly relied on relative strength (i.e. trying to shield the black sisters), so T'A'R helped augment the intended effects.

 

Be that as it may, the channeling going on there did seem a bit over the top.

 

-- dwn

 

At least a third of the Dream Ter'angreal stolen by Sheriam were copies of the twisted ring which does allow channeling.

All the ter'angreal allow channeling, but any of them--Elayne's copies even more so--leave the user less substantial in T'A'R than a dreamer, which makes the user's channeling less 'real' in T'A'R. Given some of the sources above, most of the channeling in that fight shouldn't have been 'real' enough to hurt people, destroy walls, etc.

It's like how Perrin had to learn to enter the dream strongly enough to fight Slayer, but not so strong as to lose his way back.

-- dwn

It's hard, because you don't really offer a timeline. We know (according to Brandon) that Mat arrives at Caemlyn +30 days prior to Veins of Gold, right? Elayne meets with him some 10 days after, I believe. She then gets restricted to her bed shortly after (in about a day or two). That's another week (10 days). Gawyn appears to arrive at Caemlyn just when she's finished with that, but from Egwene's point of view he doesn't leave TV until after 4 AS get killed, which takes several days (I can't remember exactly, but he does tell us IIRC) past VoG. By then Egwene's met with Elayne in TAR, and Gawyn ruined her trap (which is bound to be several more days). So, which is it? 10 days prior to VoG or ~10-15 days after?

I'll try again, revised with further information from Steven Cooper's timeline.

About 30 days before VoG, Verin takes Mat to Caemlyn

Between Mat arriving in Caemlyn and VoG, in order:

The gholam kills Lopin

Mat and Elayne hug

Mat kills the gholam (it's still cloudy in Caemlyn)

In the days right before VoG, in order:

Verin dies

The Seanchan attack the Tower

Egwene reunites the Tower

Veins of Gold

In the days following VoG, in order:

Elayne and Nynaeve meet Egwene in T'A'R

Gawyn returns to Caemlyn (it's now sunny in Caemlyn)

The big fight in T'A'R happens

Egwene and Gawyn hug

Perrin and Galad hug

Mat catches a badger

Perrin and Elayne hug

About 30 days after VoG, Grady takes Mat to the ToG, then takes Perrin to the Field of Merrilor

Hopefully that's a bit more clear. I'm not trying to attach specific dates to events, but I think my ordering is pretty close. The big problem is that Mat goes to the ToG at about the same time everyone else is gathering at the Field of Merrilor, which suggests he was in Caemlyn for about 60 days.

-- dwn

It was a succession war that didn't end with a succession. Elayne is irritated with Ellorien because there shouldn't have been any question of Trakand staying in power given that there was a perfectly viable Daugher-Heir. By calling the situation a succession, Ellorien implied that Elayne was unfit to rule.

What happened was this:

Ellorien sneered. "If you're waiting for Danine to make your ten, you'll have a long wait. Danine spent the last Succession visiting her manors. She never declared for anyone."

Elayne smiled, but it was difficult. A Succession was when one House succeeded another on the throne. "I will have tea."

So I reject your conclusion. The process (and indeed the entire period of civil unrest) is referred to as a Succession ONLY if one House succeeds another.

Any war over who takes the throne after a monarch's death could be termed a war of succession. A Succession (capital S) obviously has the specific meaning of the throne passing to another house, yet Elayne still succeeds (lower case s) Morgase as queen of Andor. Ellorien was just using the former meaning to needle Elayne.

-- dwn

(This was a revised timeline, but upon further inspection it was even more messed up than the first.)

-- dwn

It was a war over who would succeed to the Lion Throne, thus a succession war. It just happened to end with Trakand retaining the crown.

See, now you're arguing with Elayne. Do you remember KoD 'The importance of Dyelyn'? There's a terminology to those things, and Elayne insists that Ellorien was being provocative by calling it a succession, when in fact it is not (not unless she loses, that is).

It was a succession war that didn't end with a succession. Elayne is irritated with Ellorien because there shouldn't have been any question of Trakand staying in power given that there was a perfectly viable Daugher-Heir. By calling the situation a succession, Ellorien implied that Elayne was unfit to rule.

As to the chronology, Mat wouldn't wait more than 30 days in Caemlyn. He promised Thom. And Verin was fairly certain that the trollocs will arrive at Caemlyn in no more than a month. Also, when did Elayne answer that summons of Egwene's? Because she didn't seem to know what Egwene told her back in her PoV's with Mat.

Take a look at my rough timeline above. Elayne met with Mat before Veins of Gold (indeed, the gholam died before VoG). The meeting between Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne in T'A'R happened after VoG.

I agree that Mat wouldn't wait, which is why his apparent 60 day stretch in Caemlyn seems wrong. If you can poke holes in my timeline logic, though, please do.

-- dwn

(Edited for clarity)

b) Elayne HERSELF referred to the civil war as a succession war, when she was adamant it wasn't a succession unless one House succeeded another in KoD. BTW Thom did that as well, and I believe him equally unlikely to make that mistake. If I'm not mistaken, the same happened in TGS somewhere.

It was a war over who would succeed to the Lion Throne, thus a succession war. It just happened to end with Trakand retaining the crown.

c) Wasn't there something off in Elayne's timeline? She was aligned with Mat at the beginning, yet when Gawyn arrived at Caemlyn she was aligned with Egwene, plus there was her meeting with Egwene in the Dream World which I don't know how to fit in. I do remember that I felt something was seriously wrong the first time we got to see White Tower dwelers from her PoV (when that was, I'm not sure).

It's a bit wonky, but using Veins of Gold as a zero point, we get (very roughly):

Day -30 - Verin takes Mat to Caemlyn; Verin talks to Egwene; Egwene reunites the Tower

Day -30..0 - The gholam kills Lopin; Mat and Elayne hug; Mat kills the gholam (it's cloudy);

Day 0 - Veins of Gold

Day 0..30 - Elayne and Nynaeve meet Egwene in T'A'R; Gawyn returns to Caemlyn (it's sunny); Perrin and Galad hug; Egwene and Gawyn hug; Mat catches a badger; Perrin and Elayne hug

Day 30 - Mat enters the ToG; Everyone else goes to watch Egwene and Rand fight

The biggest problem I see is that Mat looks to have spent around 60 days in Caemlyn. We know that Verin died about 30 days before Veins of Gold, and we know everyone was gathering at the Field of Merrilor about 30 days after. I suppose you could argue he was seeing to the dragon construction and planning, but that seems a bit of a stretch to me.

-- dwn

US edition Chapter 27 pg 431

 

"But we must make some kind of declaration," Romanda said. She was

eldest among them, and would be the one running the meeting. "Something

to make the position of the Hall known, to dissuade the Amyrlin

from an imprudent call for war."

 

This is the Aes Sedai talking not the Kin. Age means nothing in the AS hierarchy. Maybe he meant strongest but I'm unsure if Romanda is the strongest of that grouping or not.

Age does determine precedence among Sitters, however.

-- dwn

Also, if there was a way to overcome that weakness, you'd think Moghedien would have mentioned it here:

 

"You brainless fool," Moghedien sobbed, shaking Nynaeve's skirt with both hands as if wanting to shake Nynaeve. "It does not matter how brave you are. We are linked, but you contribute nothing the way you are. Not a shred. It is my strength, and your madness. They are here in the flesh, not dreaming! They are using things you have never dreamed of! They will destroy us if we stay!"

 

I believe Moghedion meant the one-sided link of the a'dam. Nynaeve, acting as a sul'dam, contributed nothing of her own strength to the circle.

I'm not so sure that's true. The a'dam functions as a link with the sul'dam in control; the sul'dam usually do not contribute because they have not actually started channeling, but there is nothing to say that they cannot.

Yet given Egwene's experiences in TGH, the damane apparently controls the flow of power, otherwise there'd be no reason to 'train' the damane. Now, that is contradicted by the scene with Tuon and Joline in KoD; Tuon seemed much more in control than Renna ever did with Egwene. Perhaps it's possible for anyone in a link to fight for control of it?

It seems pretty clear, however, that the a'dam isn't a conventional circle, even if it is related to linking (Moridin's comment about involuntary rings).

-- dwn

Also, if there was a way to overcome that weakness, you'd think Moghedien would have mentioned it here:

 

"You brainless fool," Moghedien sobbed, shaking Nynaeve's skirt with both hands as if wanting to shake Nynaeve. "It does not matter how brave you are. We are linked, but you contribute nothing the way you are. Not a shred. It is my strength, and your madness. They are here in the flesh, not dreaming! They are using things you have never dreamed of! They will destroy us if we stay!"

I believe Moghedion meant the one-sided link of the a'dam. Nynaeve, acting as a sul'dam, contributed nothing of her own strength to the circle.

Be that as it may, Lucker's points about that fight are still valid. Nynaeve believes her channeling would be too insubstantial to harm Moghedion.

-- dwn