3 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

 

I do think the near death healing was unecessary. Showing Nyneave in really bad condition because of the circle and not being in control and suffering because of it would have been enough to set up her later struggles with channelling.

 

 

 

Same, I think them being used as batteries was fine, but I would have prefered if the Shienarans had managed to pull back from the fort, regroup and cavalry charge once the channellers were exhausted. Somewhat similar to the books. It also just makes the Shienarans look better than they did there.

This is pretty spot-on. Amalisa's bit could have ended several ways, but the one they chose was weird and confusing, didn't add any dramatic tension to the episode, and didn't give Egwene and Nynaeve a satisfying conclusion to the season. I'd also argue that it detracted (and distracted) from the similar scenes with Perrin and Loial.

4 hours ago, JenniferL said:

So one of the things that didn’t work for me was the reveal of the Horn. I don’t mind that they changed the hiding place. It’s a logical consequence of changing the nature of the Eye. But I don’t like that it’s just sitting there under Agelmar’s throne and everyone seems to know about it. In three thousand years, they never had a “oh no, we’re all going to die” moment? What about when Malkier fell? No one thought they should use it then? It would have been better if it had been hidden in the keep, but no one knew about it and some combination of the EF5 discovered it while wandering around. Or maybe Loial happens to know it’s there and asks someone why they aren’t pulling it out? ??‍♀️

I think the reveal should have included something about the horn being hidden there since Malkier fell--i.e. kept hidden by the borderland kingdoms nearest the Pit of Doom. To me the implication was they were getting ready to get it away from the city that was about to fall, similar to how Lan was taken out of Malkier. That -might- tie it too closely to Lan, but it'd make a bit more sense.

Regardless of the lore, I definitely would have tweaked the scene, particularly Perrin's part. The ideas are there, but it's sloppily put together.

I liked most of the broad strokes, but there were a number of things that didn't work well, or make sense, as others have pointed out above.

I liked the cold opening, though I agree the tone should have been different to show the desperation of the War of the Shadow. Latra Posae predicting what would happen is just a TV thing to remind viewers how saidin was tainted.

They really didn't need to give Moiraine a tracking tell--Lan could have just followed them on his own and refuse to take the others so he could move faster.

The battle scenes were pretty meh--clearly showing the limits of their budget. The myrddraal still look cool. The blight and Malkier matte painting were pretty bad.

Padan Fain and the Horn of Valere worked fine. I think we should have seen someone we know let Fain into the keep, rather than using the pass-phrase thing. Perrin's struggle with violence is interesting, but I think his scenes were poorly directed. Assuming Loial's death is a fake-out, it's kinda weird.

Amalisa's wilder circle was silly, but I'm okay with it. I like that she died from lack of control, but I feel Nynaeve should have just hit her over the head with a rock or something. The Nynaeve dead-not-dead thing was kinda pointless.

Ishamael was great. I like that it's never confirmed he isn't the DO, but we can easily tell it's some guy from the AoL given his clothing. That Moiraine saw him, and that he channeled like any other man, will likely feed into her research quest next season. I agree she's shielded--not sure where they're going with that.

Rand's choice worked well for drama. Interesting that they pulled stuff from Egwene's accepted test. Whatever he ended up doing was extremely vague, though. Looks like they're merging the seven seals into one, which is probably easier to understand than the metaphysical weirdness of the DO's prison in the books. I expect they dropped Shayol Ghul so viewers wouldn't confuse it with Dragonmount.

Padan Fain's speech about this being the first battle was really good--possibly the best part of the episode. Ishamael should have echoed that before he poofed.

3 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

This does not follow for me, Abel telling him to go save his sisters while fighting off a trolloc could have easily replaced the scene with Abel being a coward while simultaneously conveying Mat’s reluctance to fight shadowspawn but unwilling to betray his sisters. It would also be a great callback later for when we see you know what happen with Mat in Tar Valon. Cut all the weird add ins for Mat’s family and condense it to this and we still get emotional pull but also a better set up for a later pay off. 

The scene uses the contrast of Abel and Natti with Mat to paint a clearer picture of who Mat is. Sure, he's a (poor) gambler, (noble) thief, and (eventual) grave-robber, but when the cards are down, Mat will act selflessly and heroically without hesitation, and when others can't.

Although book readers might dislike this sort of change, it does serve a purpose in TV where you may only have a few seconds to convey something to a viewing audience. The critical thing In these scenes is to clearly define and build Mat's character, not to adhere to book details, or make him (or his father) look cool.

2 hours ago, JaimAybara said:

Abel and Mat using quarterstaffs fighting back to back to give exposition to his talents, where he learned it, and him being told to save his sisters. 

What scenes do you cut or shorten to give Abel Cauthon his moment to shine? What is more important for Mat--that he's torn between being a rogue and a hero, or that he can fight with a quarterstaff?

12 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

For instance, I HATE that Abell and Natti Cauthon are rewritten as they are.  If we wanted to see Mat be poorer and having a hero streak with his sisters we could have taken Abell as a horse trader and made him a man who was constantly away.  Maybe he's been gone a while at the start and so their savings are running low.  Winternight comes and Natti is freaking out so Mat has to go back out for Bode and El.

Unfortunately that kind of backstory takes a lot more exposition and screen time to set up than the few seconds we get with the Cauthons. Seeing what a mess Natti is, and that Abell (womanising or not) is clearly not minding her, is an extremely fast way to telegraph Mat's home life and how it affects him. Also, like it or not, Abell behaving that way does tie in to Mat's character traits.

It's much the same with Perrin and Leila. Having him accidentally kill her during the trolloc attack was how they chose to give viewers a shortcut into his later hang-ups over violence and women.

This sort of thing is what a lot of us mean when talking about book to screen translation. If something can be abbreviated or changed, yet give the viewers more information in a visceral and lasting fashion, then it likely will be to save screen time and budget.

40 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

My belief - both hope, and story logic - is that the death / defeat of the Forsaken are major plot points for our heroes, so if they aren't going to use them, they'd have to replace them. If it's just Ba'alzamon at the Eye, who does Moiraine battle to trigger Rand, for example? Or remove Be'lal, and who is Rand's real challenge at the Stone? Or what drives Morgase out of Camelyn, setting Elayne up to be Queen? Sure you could have Sammael do all of those, but then he's the villain always escaping from our heroes, making them look weak. And it also turns Sammael (or Demandred) into king of half the world - Camelyn, Illian, Tear - since the female forsaken are needed where they are

 

If as you say, they haven't worked this out to the nth degree, then eliminating Forsaken up front is probably a bad move. since they don't know if they need them again or not.  But if they have, then I have to think they keep them, because as I noted, they're speed bumps for Rand, nothing more.

 

It's Occam's Razor - keeping them is less work than replacing them.

The Forsaken are a tricky problem. Except for Ishamael, Lanfear and Moghedion (others were key to certain plot points, but not given as much screen time or personality as those three), they were a lot of build-up with little payoff. Were the show to double down on the legendary demonic figures being, in reality, just people, they could definitely keep all 13 and squish them as necessary. Eliminate the resurrection bit (which would be confusing for a TV production anyway), and they could winnow down the core antagonists into the plotlines where they matter without too much fuss.

1 hour ago, Jaysen Gore said:

For context, here's a few changes I'm desperately hoping get made. And they are definitely cutting away

- eliminate the Shaido at Dumai's Wells. Just gone.

- radically shorten Perrin's 3 book hunt for Faile

- greatly reduce Elayne's political games in Camelyn

- eliminate the resurrected Forsaken

I'll start with just that, and see how much of what's left I can fit in 8 seasons. If I still need more, than Morgase dies at Rahvin's hands, there's no WT embassy to the BT, and people get on and off boats, but don't spend time on them learning to channel.

 

From there, rebalance / schedule the remaining storylines so characters have a smooth arc over the length of the series, and maybe make changes to respond to the above pruning.

To this I'd add reduce or drastically rework the entire Ebou Dar sequence, particularly Mat's escape from Altara. Fun as it is to read, it's just as much of a quagmire as Perrin and Elayne's plotlines in the later books.

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

Totally disagree there was genuine emotion in that scene in the books for me.

I agree that scene (when Lan feels his bond with Moiraine is gone) is very powerful in the books, but to get there takes a long, slow build up of the lore around Aes Sedai, Warders, and Malkier that just isn't going to work the same for a TV audience.

Fantasy and Sci-Fi have some extra hurdles to clear, compared to other genres:

• A lot of people don't take them seriously, which can be a huge problem when dealing with the wider TV audience.
• They're often more fundamentally imaginative, and ask more of the reader/viewer to properly engage with the ideas, lore and worldbuilding.
• Since they often deal with entirely new worlds, the budget for costumes, sets and visual effects goes through the roof.

1 minute ago, Gothic Flame said:

And yet because we did get to know him well, almost every moment he had in the last book hit hard.

  Reveal hidden contents

Him taking over the Shienarans after Easar's compromised mind becomes apparent; His "doomed charge" of 6k troops...that became a charge of 100k; his duel with the most powerful forsaken..that gives Rand a rousing cheer against Moridin; ...moments such as these comprises a good deal of the book.

If he wasn't written so well that you didn't know the character then you wouldn't care and such moments would be just wasted filler.

There's still plenty of space for Lan to do all that, regardless of how they flesh out his personality in the meantime.

18 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

When did the show imply that [Perrin] is currently interested in Egwene? There was no implication that he is ready to "move on" or that he has those types of feelings for Egwene. Sometimes I feel like I'm watching a different show from everyone else.

 

Yeah, I never got that at all, given that we've seen Perrin and Egwene interact a fair bit. For me, it was clearly telegraphed that Nynaeve was flat-out wrong, and Rand was latching onto the idea to drive everyone away for their own safety.

7 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

Im sorry, I'm not really getting the point on the use of visual medium. I understand what you're saying with regards to how the changes to Mat can support his motivation and potentially other changes to his character and plot that are to come. The bit I'm not getting is what about the switch to TV made this change necessary..? 

 

For Rafe's vision of the story these changes were necessary, but I don't think that equates to these specific changes being necessary because of the change in medium..? (Sorry, I may have misunderstood something here!)

In a book we get a detailed window into Mat (or any character) via his own thoughts and internal monologues. A visual medium simply can't do that--voiceovers in old-school detective shows notwithstanding. Therefore the show needs to use or create scenes and situations that clearly and succinctly reveal those character traits that could otherwise be missed, like Mat's selflessness and bravery.

48 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

If you've read the books how on earth can you make such a false claim of "minor development?"

You either haven't read the books, or you're putting forth a disingenuous argument in favor of Rafe's reinvention, or you really didn't like how he's characterized in the book at all with him already a hero, fighting for 4 decades before getting to Emond's Field.

In New Spring Lan is dead set on fighting a one-man, suicidal war against the Blight. In KoD he has Nynaeve take him to the borderlands so he can--wait for it--make a one-man, suicidal attack on the Blight. Over the final couple books he grudgingly accepts a leadership role, first over the remnants of the Malkieri, and later other elements of the armies. He does have some character development--that question of leadership, and how his relationship with Nynaeve mellows him and give him some hope for the future. Yet compared to other main characters, his arc is very minor and very drawn out.

The stoic, enigmatic, loner hero works in some genres--it's common in samurai movies and westerns--but it's an extremely tough sell as in a modern TV show with an ensemble cast.

5 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Its fairly different in that a threat to the eye of the world wasn't seen as directly going to battle the dark one.  They went to talk to the green man.

The lore details are different, but the thematic elements--incomplete information and trusting in the pattern--are the same. The lore around the Eye of the World is a mess in the books. It's no surprise they simplified it for the show.

33 minutes ago, CivBrit said:

Secondly, I am puzzled as to why Moiraine (and Siuan) are planning to march the Dragon straight to the Dark One's prison for a confrontation before the Dragon has had any training or practice whatsoever with the power. What is Moraine hoping to accomplish? Her character in the books would be horrified at the idea of sending an untrained and completely inexperienced Dragon to fight the Dark One.

It's not far off Moiraine's logic (or leap of faith) in going to the Eye in the books. She had three ta'veren, one of whom was the Dragon Reborn, and an apparent threat to the Eye of the World. She decided that the best course of action was to bring them together and hope the pattern knew what it was doing.

1 hour ago, RhienneAgain said:

I don't know...where do you draw the line between 'adapting' and 'altering'? I would say 'adapting' means making the changes necessary for the switch between mediums.

 

I think we're beginning to get into more subjective territory when we look at the treatment of Lan. Is it adapting is Rafe has completely changed Lan's personality because he felt like it? Is it adapting if Rafe completely changed Lan because he felt Lan's version of masculinity was 'wrong' or 'unpalatable to current social norms'?

 

I'd say he adapted Lan because someone who barely talks, and who has only minor development over 14 books, wouldn't work as a one of the main characters in an ensemble TV show.

2 hours ago, Deviations said:

Yet in the final battles, he fights well enough for Lan to say something like - yes you earned the heron mark...

By AMoL Tam had been practicing his swordwork again (and training others) for over a year.

Given how ambiguous most of Min's wording is, I wouldn't be surprised to see "your downfall" to be less about Moiraine as an individual, and more about the Blue Ajah or even the Aes Sedai as a whole, both of which would be very true whether "the Amyrlin" is Siuan or Elaida.

6 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

(a) no one was hooded within Fal Dara 

 

(b) everyone in Fal Dara had a weapon close at hand

I thought about the hoods as they approached the city and completely forgot to watch for it!

26 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

It would have been nice to get some snippets of that night prior to the reveal, or maybe some of the early mutterings that if you rewound and really listened to it, you could have picked up a bread crumb or two. Because it did come off as mystery clues the viewer didn’t really even get an opportunity to piece together. I think they did okay with the door, we knew something happened, same with the ways, but not the fever dreams or what Machin Shin said. 

There's also the visual cues, this being TV and all. Moiraine is particularly interested in children born outside the Two Rivers--she brings this up with Nynaeve--and Rand is super 100% obviously not from 'round these parts.

1 hour ago, Sabio said:

If they felt Fain holding the leaf was important they could of easily of found the time to add it.  Clearly Nyn and Lan having dinner or the pointless love triangle arguement were more important.  They felt that stuff added more to the story.  So tossing that in as "bonus" material to say ohhh this also happened,. nope didn't happen.

 

 

The "love triangle" scene wasn't pointless. It shows Rand trying to push his friends away to keep them safe--exactly like he does in TGH--which foreshadows both his acknowledgment (if not acceptance) of being the Dragon Reborn, and his decision to run off with Moiraine. The order of things may be different than in the book, but it's completely in line with Rand's character.

I'd have greatly preferred them to use the avendesora leaf to open the Waygate, but it's not catastrophic. A viewer without book knowledge will conclude that Fain either can channel, had help from someone who can channel, or had some other way of opening the Waygate.

I do wonder if channelling the gate open was a change made when they had to swerve to justify leaving Mat outside.

I'm watching it with three casual book readers, and we all roughly agree that it's pretty good. Not mind-blowing, but well above the quality threshold most fantasy adaptations struggle to reach. Sure, plot details are different, but the overall shape of the story is there. Likewise with the characters--exaggerated here and there, which is often the case for TV, but true to their personalities and roles in the books.

1 hour ago, divica said:

Seriously?

you are defending a show that transformed a perrin moment about accepting that he has powers and understanding them into a egwene moment. He didn't even get to tell moiraine that he had powers or have 1 scene trying to explain what his powers were. All that story as spent developing egwene's character. This is got s8 bad level of writing.

They're starting Egwene's character arc a bit early, and, without Elyas for exposition, drawing out Perrin's. I fail to see the tragedy.

1 hour ago, divica said:

In regards to rand. why show us now the scene of tam revealing he isn't his biological son? why not do it on the first ep and have rand grow during the season by accepting it? 

This way they basically made the moment meaningless. After 1 entire season rand is completly bland because they don't care to give him a story besides giving him lines about how egwene is so great...

Pairing the scene of Rand's birth with the flashback to Tam's fever dream is an effective way to link the two in an episodic, visual format, where viewers may have forgotten exactly who Tam is or what he looked like.

1 hour ago, divica said:

And mat after ep 3 basically disapeared from the show. 

Hyperbole aside, Mat had many memorable scenes through the season until (it seems likely) his actor left the series. I particularly liked the one between him and Helga Grinwald.

7 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

That's the thing; she wasn't speaking symbolically in the TV show.

 

When she said she saw sparks surrounding the Two Rivers four and darkness trying to swallow those sparks, she literally saw everything that she described happening in real time as,she described it to Moiraine.

The vision of sparks symbolised the EF5 all being connected in the fight against the DO, not that there would be literal, physical sparks flying off the characters.