3 hours ago, FanofKnotai said:

   22 hours ago,  dwn said: 

Also, things like "Rand/Mat/Perrin/Lan have been diminished to make the women look good!!!"

I agreed with most of what you said except this. How can you not see the difference in their importance in the show. The women have definitely been thrust to the fore front of all the episodes. And in the books the women were just as awesome as the men and needed no changing. Show me a male badass from the books and I’ll show you his female equal. But it’s not so in the show (admittedly only “so far” we don’t know what the future holds) because again going back to small unnecessary changes like Marin leading the Two Rivers instead of Bran. Was he even the mayor in the show? 

I agree they've given Egwene, Nynaeve, Moiraine and the Aes Sedai more focus than they had the (early) books--that sort of thing is necessary when you're condensing a story and hiring actors for an ensemble cast. What I don't agree with is that doing so diminishes Rand, Mat, Perrin, Thom or Lan in any way.

Rand spends most of TEotW sulking over Tam's fever dream and bumbling his way to Caemlyn--and he does much the same in the show, minus the sulking. Mat is immature and irresponsible then sticks his [hand] in SL funk. Perrin's most "badass" moment is an internal monologue where he resolves to kill Egwene to spare her a painful death by ravens.

Let's look at Lan. Is he different in the show? Certainly. They've elevated him to a main character, and in doing so given given him a personality beyond Samurai Batman. What, Nynaeve managed to sneak up on him in a scene shot to make it dramatic and obvious to TV viewers? Oh noes! He hasn't killed as many CG trollocs as he did in the books? Double oh noes!

And are you honestly that hung up on who had more speaking lines between Bran and Marin al'Vere? Seriously?

Although it's never shown in Shienar/Arafel/Kandor/Saldaea, you'd think some of the borderlanders would be resentful over the Aes Sedai abandoning Malkier. (We know the Tower did send aid, but was too late--that's not common knowledge, however.)

5 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

What? Seriously? A blademaster actually looking like a blademaster as he was portrayed in the book isn’t important? I would argue it is equally important as displaying the prowess of the Aiel. But agree to disagree, plus what’s done is done. 

The whole concept of a blademaster takes a fair bit of exposition to cover, and ultimately has next to zero impact on the plot. If they're going to keep it at all, it makes sense to leave it till Lan starts properly training Rand, which I expect will be part of season 2.

22 hours ago, TheDreadReader said:

We get LTT and Ishy as a cold open.

It think it unlikely due to production limits, but this would be a great way to start the episode.

My prediction: it's all been misdirection and Moiraine is the Dragon Reborn. The irony of spending the past 20 years searching for herself! Also, her kesiera turns out to be a sa'angreal or something.

1 hour ago, JaimAybara said:

He and Abel do the quarterstaff fighting every year which he is the only one who could beat him which suggests he does stay fit and does do martial arts. And in the books he does kill a handful…so the first part is objectively false. As for the second yeah the maidens are badass, it was cool, but my point isn’t that she shouldn’t be, my point is people keep trying to tell Tam shouldn’t be. 

Tam still hasn't used a sword or been in a real fight in 20 odd years. So we don't get to see him cut down several trollocs, almost certainly due to time/budget constraints--that hardly means someone is trying to make him less "cool". The important part of that scene is that Tam 1) has a sword and 2) gets injured.

It should be noted that Min's visions are heavily symbolic and need interpreting (either by her or the reader), unlike Foretellings which are more typical prophecy and refer to specific people and events.

7 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

Me: Tam should have killed like 3 or 4 Trollocs in the barn. 

Responses: “He’s old, out of practice, and we can’t do everything like it was done in the books.”

 

Me: “A woman going into labor can take out like half a dozen dudes? Multiple of which coordinated their attacks?”

 

Responses: “I’ve seen women do yoga and CrossFit while pregnant.” 
 

? ??

In all fairness, you could rephrase it like:

• A middle-aged soldier-turned-shepherd who hasn't used a sword in 20 years is a bit rusty when fighting giant monsters.
• An exceptionally fit young woman who's been actively fighting over the past several months is--despite being pregnant--still formidable when facing off against typical foot soldiers.

36 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

I would tend to agree. If the goal is to enjoy the series, then the show-lovers certainly have nothing to disentangle. 

 

However, in the context of "discussing the show on its own merits" I do think that both sides would certainly need to do some disentangling. 

 

Those who love the show would need to ask themselves, "How much of my enjoyment of this show is tied in with the dopamine hits I get from seeing something I recognize portrayed on screen?" 

 

Show detractors would have to honestly assess themselves from the opposite point. 

 

However, I think that the discussion here on Dragonmount is unique because we are all fans of the books. So removing that aspect of the conversation is sort of counterproductive because the whole reason we're here is to talk with other fans. 

 

My point is that I don't necessarily like the idea of discussing the show entirely on its own merits. As much as we're invited to do that (by the showrunners, Sarah Nakamura, and even Brandon Sanderson), I think it's much less interesting than discussing the show in relation to the books. 

 

I'm rambling. 

For production realities (editing, pacing, lighting, sets, actors, budget), I'm generally fairly forgiving, so long as the show meets a minimum quality. While WoT has clearly suffered from time/budget constraints, thus far it mostly exceeds that threshold for me. (Things like editing, lighting and design also have a subjective component.)

I also recognise that adaptations need to make plot and character changes to work with the new medium and audience. With this I tend to be more concerned with thematic elements and the "feel" of the material, rather than specific plot details. Sure it sucks when a favourite scene gets skipped or changed, but whatevs. Of course, any plot, lore or worldbuilding changes should be internally consistent.

Where people lose me is with comments like "character X did Y which they would never do so this is rubbish!" or "the showrunners hate the fans and disrespect the books and I'll never be happy again!!". Also, things like "Rand/Mat/Perrin/Lan have been diminished to make the women look good!!!" sound an awful lot like the old Rand vs. Egwene/Elayne flame wars, for those who remember them.

3 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

I haven't read every page of this thread, so I may have missed it.  But is nobody even a little miffed at how accepting Rand is that he is the DR?  I mean, he only fought against that idea for the next two books until the Stone fell and he held Callandor.    Having him be this accepting basically nullifies his entire motivations for what he does for the next two books.  But whatever I guess.   

Not really? I think streamlining Rand's early identity crisis is just going to be necessary so the show can focus on saidin, LTT, and his myriad of other guilts and hang-ups.

As someone (CaddySedai?) said above, Rand going off with Moiraine to protect the others is definitely something I can see him doing.

2 hours ago, flinn said:

Makes perfect sense to me.. When you go back and watch there are a lot of tells that Perrin is into Egwene. Then he has to go home to 2nd choice and pretend. Really lowers Perrins character, but I am getting used to all the men being lessened.

Well then, I guess it's a good thing Perrin will never ever have issues with women again.

7 hours ago, JenniferL said:

The gold rings and white flames are obviously supposed to be the Flame of Tar Valon and the aes Sedai rings. But I do wonder if Nynaeve’s ring will turn out to be Lan’s instead? 

So much of what Min said could be interpreted more than one way, so I definitely took the gold ring to be Lan's signet ring.

Rainbows -- The Aes Sedai, perhaps? Or the swirly colours all three ta'veren see near the end of the series?

I'm pretty sure the whole thing about the baby being impossible alludes to Min falling in love with Rand. Min's tone there suggests she was more annoyed than awed.

I'm curious how the Amyrlin will be the cause of Moiraine's downfall. That could mean anything or nothing, really.

6 hours ago, Ksjh1316 said:

Are there still storks in Randland?

Yup. They're supposed to be nesting in the roofs at Bel Tine in Emond's Field.

I enjoyed it overall--lots of good character moments. The two things I didn't care for were that I feel more time should have been spent in the Ways, and the look of the blight was very CG. I think this episode really shows that they were struggling to fit the first season in 8 episodes.

Tigraine -- Very well done. I can forgive the veil in a TV show. I wonder if they shouldn't have identified her as Shaiel?

I guessed correctly that it was Rand channeling in the Ways.

Moiraine, Mat and the Red Ajah -- Cold, but Moiraine's likely thinking they'll rough him up a bit at worst (there's a line similar to that somewhere in the books), gentle a fallen Dragon Reborn at best.

Padan Fain's actor is great.

Rand, Perrin and Egwene -- I think a lot of this stems from Rand (clumsily) trying to push everyone away like he does in TGH.

Min was great. I particularly liked her constant misdirection.

1 hour ago, Sabio said:

I always wondered it myself, it was really only useful to destroy the Trolloc army and torch Ishy.  It always seemed to me if for some reason he had to stop the series after one book he could say it helped defeat the DO.  But I always wondered what it was really suppose to do, there had to of been better ways to protect the seal, banner, and horn.

 

While it's not hard to handwave a plausible explanation (and I've done so elsewhere), the real answer is that TEotW suffers from a lot of early instalment weirdness.

3 hours ago, Agitel said:

It seems weird to make a filtered pool of pure saidin just as a barrier, especially when we know there are wards around Callandor that serve a similar purpose. Why would male and female Aes Sedai sacrifice themselves for this? The explanation seems to me to be that they wanted the Dragon to be able to learn to channel without working with the taint and going mad. They did not anticipate the Dragon and the Forsaken using it all up in minutes in a high stakes battle.

I definitely like the idea of it being a kiddy pool for the Dragon Reborn.

This question came up a while back (okay... apparently ten years ago), and I made some guesses/speculation that I think still holds up:

1 hour ago, AdamA said:

If we're going to subject cosmologies with reincarnation to logical scrutiny, seemingly souls have to be genderless. Since biological sex is a random coin flip with proportions that aren't totally constant from one generation to the next (close to 50/50, but never exactly), at least a few would need to flip.

Forget gender. If we want to be logical about it then population growth alone clubs reincarnation over the head with a spanner.

14 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

But they've also made it an actual possibility within the version of the WoT world they're building for the series, a decision that has actual ripple effects on how they tell the story of the Dragon Reborn regardless of who it ultimately ends up being.

It's only a possibility if you ignore the fact that we've already seen Rand channel.

32 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

I would have preferred they used a different reason to start the conflict.  'She didn't tell us about the Trollocs' was not sufficient.  Moiraine could have quite truthfully said she didn't know about the Trollocs but was chasing down the answer.  The scene with Maeghan ordering her to stay was unnecessary.  If you want to show some apparent conflict between the two -have Siuan order Moiraine to be birched, then have Moiraine slink off in a sulk with the EF5 after.  It's not difficult to come up with something that actually makes sense.

Maigan ordering Moiraine to remain in the Tower reveals a bit more of the power structure in the Tower--i.e. that some sisters (a Sitter in this case) besides the Amyrlin have authority over others. It also shows that it's normal for the Ajahs (and individual sisters) to have their own secrets and agendas. Note that Maigan never tries to get Moiraine to reveal anything.

It's also worth noting that the situation mirrors the one in New Spring where a newly raised Siuan is forced to remain in the Tower by Cetalia.

31 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

 

Why does Moiraine want to have an argument?  Why does she need it?

It gives Siuan an excuse to chew her out publicly, which helps keep the Hall (and other Aes Sedai in general) from suspecting she and Siuan are working together. They go through a similar (if less obvious) charade in Fal Dara at the beginning of TGH.

31 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

Moiraine is on a serious, urgent quest.  Tower politics are at best a distraction, why on earth would she court them?  What Moiraine needed was to not be at the Tower in the first place.  Other than TV being a meeting point for the separated party, what did that location offer that other circumstances didn't.  Taking a potential male channeler into that pit of vipers was a huge risk, with little potential pay off.   

Moiraine's original plan in TEotW was to take the group to Tar Valon. That only changed in Caemlyn when she learned about a possible threat to the Eye.

31 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

Going further, I liked the tenderness between the two and while it was not something that was explored in the books and could have further reaching consequences it did give some depth.  I always read their relationship to have been a very deep bond -I think they genuinely loved one another but circumstances made a relationship of any sort impossible. I thought it was good to show a non-hetrosexual relationship to be something with depth and longevity.  

They were clearly in such a relationship in New Spring; the show has extended that to present day.

19 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Siuan also didn't dismiss the idea, her answer to me seemed more of a trying to understand if the pattern would do such a thing.  After all who can say what the pattern might do.  I mean Moiraine was going on about maybe they misunderstood the prophecy and such.

I don't know... I took Siuan's reaction there as more or less: "Moiraine, have you been eating paste again?"

12 minutes ago, DorrinVerrakai1 said:

 

Except the Aes Sedai forsaking Love and Sex never made sense.  The Green Ajah made no secret about their love for men but if it's bisexual/lesbian women it's framed as something that's childish and to be put aside.  There are some parts of the series that could definitely use reframing and updating such as the concept that any Aes Sedai not of the Green Ajah magically turned off their sex drives.  Asha'men whatever they're called were allowed to bring their wives and take as many lovers as they wanted in comparison.

 

It was insulting to me after reading New Spring to realize that Moiraine and Siuan were painted as virgins after being known pillowfriends for years.

Aes Sedai sealing themselves off from the world is a major part of what's wrong with the whole institution; giving up relationships is the tip of the iceberg.

I never saw Siuan and Moiraine painted as virgins. A lot of it was seen through Moiraine's Cairhienin prudery where any discussion of relationships/romance/relations was like naming the Dark One.

(I see where you're coming from and I'm not saying you're wrong--I just didn't read it that way.)

If Machin Shin doesn't look exactly like that in the show I will be sorely disappointed.

24 minutes ago, DorrinVerrakai1 said:

I just wanted to chime in for the first time because this episode meant so much to me as a queer person.  I remember shipping Moiraine and Siuan immediately in book 2 and being absolutely delighted with New Spring.  It devastated me in the books that they never meet again.

 

It was also devastating to me at the time I read the series that their relationship was treated like a silly way to let off some sexual frustration like masturbation doesn't exist? Pillowfriends is a sort of demeaning term to me. I can't think of a lesbian relationship off the top of my head that didn't involve a Black Ajah Red Sister or a Darkfriend.  I understand it was good representation at the time but now we can do much better and I'll be forever grateful to Rafe Judkins for giving this to all the queer fans who read the books and were hurt by it.

 

I also found it gross that both women end up with much older looking men... Gareth Bryne decided to follow "pretty eyes" because she might need help after being dumped by Morgase which is a dumb reason for him to go to Salidar in the first place like he can't just have another barn built.  You can't convince me he personally chases down any "oath" breaker like he did her and they can easily eliminate that all together. I can think of a thousand ways he could be asked to be the General for the Salidar Aes Sedai that don't involve him wanting Siuan like that.

 

As for Thom and the Tower rescue, he doesn't have to be in love with Moiraine for to play that out either. I don't think this is going to go by the books and obviously I don't care. Moiraine's return was absolutely anticlimatic in the books and I hope they make it better in the show. They've already established a strong link between Mat and Thom and the offer of info on the Red Sisters who gentled Owyn can still stand and be a big motivating factor since it's Thom's motivation to help Mat and Rand in the first place.

I'm glad they showed it here as well because it really seemed like something RJ added in for New Spring.

I'm very likely in the minority on this, but I always viewed the Novice/Accepted pillow-friends thing to cover a broad spectrum of relationships between women who (for many reasons) really had no other options for friends. Likewise, the expectation that they abandon it once gaining the shawl was, to me, less a commentary on same-sex relationships and more about letting go of all "worldly" non-Aes Sedai ties, whether they be to friends, family, lovers or otherwise.

The Siuan/Gareth pairing never bothered me much--at least it developed naturally, in a middle-age meet-cute kind of way. And outside of appearance, the age difference isn't all that great.

(I agree that Moiraine and Thom, despite being foreshadowed here and there, really didn't make much sense as written.)

12 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

- Moiraine dies devastating Rand and effecting his character for the rest of the series

This would be the biggest loss, IMO. Regardless of Moiraine's role, it'll take some careful writing and acting to show Rand's paranoia over Aes Sedai, guilt of women dying, and general descent into darkness and insanity. So long as they preserve the core themes of loss of control over his life and guilt over the death/destruction he's causing, I expect it'll work out.

8 minutes ago, WOTReader2 said:

Most people will probably miss it on the first read, but he does use the one power in the book (lightning blows up the Inn) before Caemlyn. 

 

But, in the end, Eye of the World is not actually a mystery book. It is pretty obvious from the start who is the Dragon Reborn, and it never really tries to hide it. The TV series is different by making the mystery a focal point, and it needs to give more signs to make it more difficult to tell between them. This would be easier with only three candidates. 

In the books Rand uses the power to wash away Bela's tiredness even before that (and goes loopy in Baerlon because of it). In the show he uses the power to break open the door to escape from Dana.

The identity of the DR isn't a mystery for the reader, but it most definitely is for the characters.