3 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

Sure they could rearange Mat's story line in order to get him to rescue Moiraine sooner, but why would she stay away from Rand then? And if she doesn't what does she do? Just seems odd to me to have her in the show but not have her really do much just hang around to say hey we still have this really good actor on here.

 

I don't know maybe they can come up with a way to do it convincingly but it seems uneccesary to me.

I agree it's not a trivial change, and it would require Moiraine take on at least part of Cadsuane's role. However, thinking like a show producer--and like a book reader when Caddy first appeared in ACos--why replace the mentor/advisor character with a different one part way through?

(Everyone complains about Perrin's plotline, but Mat spends more than 4 books in Altara. Surely that can be rearranged a bit.)

13 minutes ago, WOTReader2 said:

 

Here is a question: do you think having five candidates makes it a better story than having three candidates?

 

If your answer is no, does that not mean that the change was completely pointless and a waste of time? I think so, but it is more than that for me. I think bringing in the idea of five candidates and having women being potential candidates has actually harmed the story. 

I don't think it makes the mystery better or worse, but it does help show more of Mat, Perrin, Egwene and Nynaeve, who are equally important characters whose plot arcs will diverge from Rand's in the coming seasons.

13 minutes ago, WOTReader2 said:

The other issue is that having more candidates makes it far harder to write. You could build three legitimate claimants with the time they have, but five is too much and has led to a lot of rushing. Rand has done nothing; Perrin just got some gold eyes; Matt has a thing for daggers. The actual non-candidates in the book (Egwene and Nynaeve) get far more building than these three. The lack of action from Rand, in particular, has made it obvious to a lot of non-book readers, also.

In the books, by the time they've entered the Ways in Caemlyn Rand really hadn't done much either, beyond survive. I honestly don't see much difference between the books and the show in this regard.

10 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

Quick look at the chronology says she was gone 9-10 months.

 

Regardless there's a lot events that happen between Moiraine's "death" and her return, to many to show in a single season, and they culminate in Rand's ephinany on Dragonmount. I don't see how you have Moiraine be present for that considering the impact her dissapearnce had on him.

Sure, a lot of important events happen, but Moiraine returning early wouldn't impact very much except Rand's arc. So long as she's gone long enough that Rand can 1) learn to stand on his own, and 2) start really going off the deep end, I think it could be made to work. At the very least her return could be handled better than it was in AMoL.

I don't really understand why this topic is so divisive. All they've done is expand the original mystery of who is the Dragon Reborn to give some foreground focus to other characters. Aside from losing the symbolism of three, does it really matter?

As for Moiraine, it's worth noting that while she was gone for 8 books (and was hardly in AMoL), those books only covered a few months in-world. If the timeline is smoothed out and reorganised, Moiraine could disappear at the end of one season and return at the end of the next.

Also, it's highly likely the plot quagmire of the later books meant Moiraine was absent far longer than RJ originally intended--which necessitated the out-of-nowhere introduction of Cadsuane. And while I'm one of the few who like Cadsuane as a character, her role could be merged with Moiraine's, should Moiraine return sooner.

8 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I don't know. Think this would have been the perfect place for some CGI budget.  The darkness of the Ways probably makes it even easier to pull off.  Someone mentioned the Mines of Moria.  That was made 20 years ago.  Couldn't they do something similar for much less now?

6 hours ago, Mailman said:

I dont think thats true you can set it up with little expense to the overall budget. Emphasize the light being almost being pushed back giving you a very tense atmosphere within which to work and you start to actually get some development between the EF4 and Lan Moiraine and Loial.

 

The group are forced to remain together you have the suffocation of the dark surrounding them. Would be a excellent place to give the audience through the EF4 a more world building view of the things that are occurring.

5 hours ago, Agitel said:

I think the Ways could be done true to book. There are other considerations, but I think they're definitely doable.

Regardless of budget, making a black void (and nonsensical geometry) compelling in a visual medium is extremely difficult. I'll reserve judgement for what we end up with in the next episode, but if they manage to convey the oppressive/unnerving loneliness of the Ways in some other fashion I'll be fine with it.

On 12/12/2021 at 12:43 PM, TheDreadReader said:

In the Hall of the Servants, when Siuan questions Moiraine, and Moiraine says "She cannot say".....  is the reason she can't say because she is bound by the oath rod?

Quote

"Stay!" Tamra barked. That iron-hard gaze studied them both. "You will tell no one about this, not for any reason. If necessary, lie. Even to a sister. Gitara died without speaking. Do you understand me?"

 

-- A Wish Fulfilled, New Spring, pg. 38

So when Moiraine says she "cannot say" she's technically she's telling the truth. The Oath Rod may not prevent her, but revealing anything about the search would break her promise to Tamra.

On 12/11/2021 at 3:48 PM, Sabio said:

That is Perrin in the first few books, he's the one who quietly goes along.  As Rand argues with Moiraine, Perrin is more of the silently sit there waiting to find out what to do.  I don't think it's until book 4, when he goes back to the Two Rivers is when starts having a personality.  Mostly you get thoughts from Perrin and lot of smelling.

Perrin got a personality once Faile showed up in TDR. (I predict this comment will cause absolutely no controversy whatsoever.)

1 minute ago, DaddyFinn said:

Maybe this version is less like Mines of Moria

Nah. In this version they even set Bill the Pony loose before entering.

45 minutes ago, Joe B said:

I'm not a big fan of the lightning that appears to be lighting up the ways. Maybe I am wrong to think that the ways are pitch black.

Do you think the lightning is artistic license, or maybe a a practicality for filming in a dark setting?

I'll give them extra artistic license here. The Ways as described in the books were basically a black void with a latticework of pathways that didn't make logical sense. It's a cool concept, but it'd be nigh impossible to depict and make interesting on screen.

5 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

No one thinks there are, in fact, multiple Dragons. The conversation was about the difficulty of relying on ancient translations. It's a conversation about Moiraine's frustration at her inability to figure out who it is. 

This is the important plot point in both the books and the show: neither the Light or the Dark knows who the Dragon is at first. Moiraine and Siuan have the most accurate knowledge since they heard Gitara's Foretelling first-hand, but even they have to think it over a bit before concluding it's likely the Dragon was born at that moment. Then Moiraine finds three ta'veren where she expected one and hilarity ensues. The show is just elevating that confusion and running with it.

It's also worth noting that the Karaethon Cycle isn't a singular prophecy but rather a collection of Foretellings (and likely Dreams) about the Dragon. Different versions include different pieces, some of which mistakingly refer to Mat or Perrin instead of the Dragon.

And Moiraine has a lot more depth (and is much more of a troublemaker) than the Two Rivers Hicks realise.

Quote

"Eat your fish."

9 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

This is actually one scene I have some issue with.  Not enough to grump too much, but a point where I went "Why did they...?"

We could have established the Oath Rod by showing a flashback or Siuan or Moraine's raising.  Which wouldn't have taken too much time, though it would have forced casting a new Amyrlin for just that scene.

My concern here is that will people take it badly of Siuan when we later on find out the side affect of the oath rod?  Don't get me wrong, Siuan doesn't KNOW about the side affect at this point, and even by the end of the series their solution to the side affect isn't to stop using the rod, so it's not outright bad, but as we see, some people take knee-jerk reactions to things without thinking them through.

Well, ageless look has been abandoned by the show (for obvious reasons), and the lifespan-limiting didn't really have any direct impact on the plot. (IMO, it was unfortunate the books left that so unresolved.)

I do think this scene will likely tie into Siuan's eventual downfall. She was known for being overbearing and running roughshod over the Hall. However, since the viewers know it's a ruse between her and Moiraine, I think it will make her more sympathetic rather than less.

24 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

I agree 100% with your post as I think these all have justifications. I'm not sure if the final payoff/execution works as well in the end on some parts of it, and that may come down to directing/writing/editing and not the actual idea changes in themselves.

Indeed. I think we've already seen some cuts/changes that work better than others--the departure from the Two Rivers in episode 1 felt particularly jarring to me.

When it comes to an adaptation, any changes that facillitate production or are obvious due to the different medium just don't bother me all that much--particularly if I can come up with a plausible reason behind the change in just a few seconds. Some examples:

Having a variety of fast-travel means works in a book, but is just confusing without a ton of exposition. This episode shows Moiraine using some kind of gateway ter'angreal, which superficially acts like the Waygate we see later on--obviously meant to introduce the concept of fast-travel in a clear and concise fashion, since it's something that comes up repeatedly throughout the story.

We see more of Logain to emphasise what happens to men who can channel, which gives added weight to Thom's warning, helps show what the Dragon Reborn means to the world, and foreshadows what awaits the Dragon Reborn in the long run.

Showing the Oath Rod here reinforces the idea of ter'angreal in general, as well as showing magically binding oaths, both of which (for a TV show audience) are important to set up early on. Otherwise the first time we actually see the Oath Rod is during the BA hunt.

Moving scenes from Caemlyn and Fal Dara to Tar Valon reduces one-off locations, which simplifies production and lets them spend more on an important place like Tar Valon.

The scenes in The Tower (including those between Siuan and Moiraine) are mostly reworked/relocated ideas from other books (New Spring and TGH), and lay important groundwork for Aes Sedai, Warders, and the various Tower factions and politics--all of which are critical to the overall story.

Leaving the horses at the Waygate was obviously done to reduce production cost.

Mat not entering the Ways is likely due to the actor leaving. Yes it's unfortunate, but these things happen. Should they merge TGH and TDR to some degree, it puts him in a good place to pick up his story later on.

Finally, while I agree that some scenes and edits are a bit clunky, these episodes are already near or over an hour long--which is basically giving us ~11 typical TV episodes this season. Sure it would have been better with more time in places, but that just wasn't practical.

Thus far, almost all the changes have been to: reduce cost and complexity; compress the story for a different medium; simplify the lore and worldbuilding for a different audience; and work around unforeseen hiccups in production. That seems reasonable to me.

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

I don't think it's necessarily a problem that Moraine didn't know Nynaeve could channel.  It's something women can sense but it's also something that can be overlooked.  In the books Moraine is not injured after Shadar Logoth and when Nynaeve creeps up on them Moraine doesn't notice for a while before suddenly realizing.  

Combine that with her dismissing Nynaeve for her age right away and maybe she just never bothered to check.  Kind of like hearing a noise outside but being so sure it's just the dog that you don't look out the window.

 

I interpreted it as Moiraine shading the truth. She knew Nynaeve was a wilder and could touch saidar occasionally, but not that she could channel consciously or with great effect. I'd have preferred her to use the term 'wilder', but, like a lot of the concepts around channelling, it's likely just too complex to show on screen.

Overall I liked most of the episode. Some thoughts:

As a couple people have mentioned, I took Siuan's dream as a sign of Ishy meddling with things. It more-or-less tracks with how the Eye is introduced in the books.

Too bad about Barney Harris; he did a pretty good job as Mat. I imagine the prescript against Mat touching the dagger again is a re-shoot to tie into where his arc picks up later.

Loved the fake-out with Logain trying to get them to execute him. I do think Siuan should have been more compassionate here.

The Aes Sedai interplay was probably the highlight of the episode; lots of parallels with the books, too. I'm sad that Leane didn't get to coo over Perrin, though.

I suspect Moiraine might be mistaken about Liandrin's male "friend".

I suspect Egwene is overly optimistic about Eamon Valda's demise.

Cool use of the gateway-ish ter'angreal and the Oath Rod. It's probably good to lay the groundwork for such concepts early.

Interesting change to the Waygate. I wonder if they plan to merge the Ways and portal stones to keep things simpler. And that's one way to reduce your horse budget.

Egwene and Nynaeve''s interaction with Siuan were very much in line with TGH. It also makes sense that we see young Siuan to show how she might relate to them.

I didn't really like the pacing of a couple scenes. Moiraine's exile in particular felt a bit too slow and melodramatic.

Given the visual medium, I expect these were sign posts that are superficially similar to portal stones. It'll make the introduction of portal stones feel more natural, and it'll be a nice surprise for anyone unfamiliar with the books when chaos ensues.

47 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Perrin did not lose control.  He was an untrained villager caught in a chaotic fight for his life and he made a mistake.  He can still feel guilt for making that mistake, being human and all, but I imagine that 99% of us in the same situation would have been swinging at any sound or movement.

From a reader/viewer perspective, Perrin may not be morally culpable, yet from his POV the adrenaline rush he gets from fighting feels like a loss of control. And he frequently compares "losing himself" in battle to "losing himself" to the wolf. It's all thought/reason vs. instinct/emotion. What to us is part of Perrin's nature is, to him, proof that he can't control himself. Thus, he feels guilt over it.

33 minutes ago, DELTA said:

Random musings

 

In one of the dream sequences Perrin sees Laila being eaten by a wolf. Considering the connection between Perrin and wolves, I’m trying to reason out what the wolf’s appearance means.
 

It made for good shock factor on screen but as Goldeneyes comes to be the wolf is less menacing  and very meaningful in retrospect because it can’t be coincidence (stating the obvious here)
 

My theory is the wolf attacking “Laila” was a way of warning/alerting Perrin to the dangers of the Dream or that it wasn’t real. I’ve read elsewhere some believe it shows Laila was a DF since wolves hate all things Shadow

 

does anyone else have any thoughts?

Ralph's interpretation above is one I hadn't thought of (and like). I personally viewed it as Perrin linking the wild/aggressive wolf nature to his loss of control that resulted in Leila's death.

59 minutes ago, grayavatar said:

 

I don't understand why Stepin had to drug Lan in order to kill himself. When they showed the knife missing I thought Stepin was perhaps a darkfriend gone to kill Moiraine. With Lan rushing off to save her. Why else would you drug a warder.

 

I think the scene where Nynaeve gives him the tea and Lan waking up could easily have been removed.

Because Lan was there specifically to keep him from hurting himself. (Why else would Lan be there instead of guarding Moiraine?) We're lead to believe that Stepin went to Nynaeve for the sleeping aid because he intended to overdose on it, but that was both foreshadowing and misdirection--he really wanted it as a means to escape from his watchers.

4 hours ago, TheSmurf said:

It's kind of telling that we know the importance of the bond better than we do, for example, the prophesies of the Dragon. For my Wife and I, we wish our kids watching had been told more about the Dragon at this point.

Prophesy--particularly around a religious figure--is something that most people have heard of before, so introducing the Karaethon Cycle later and/or piecemeal is unlikely to confuse anyone. The Warder Bond is entirely in-world, and while parallels exist in other fantasy, is something that most viewers will need some hand-holding to understand.

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

What I knew about Mat when I read EotW:

• Prankster - once let a badger loose in the green.
• Lazy(ish) - tries to get out of helping, but ultimately pitches in.
• Loyal to Rand

Then he basically becomes dagger sick for the rest of the entire book. I got some glimpses of him (through Rand's eyes), but I knew next to nothing about him. What I know about Mat from the TV Show:

• Funny.
• Gambler and (possibly) a thief.
• Cares for his sisters.
• Lazy(ish) - tries to get out of doing work.
• Loyal to Rand

I'd like to add that he doesn't steal for himself, but out of necessity to help provide for his sisters. And he's obviously deeply conflicted about it.

More than once Siuan compares him to her uncle who died pulling people from a burning building, and on Winternight Mat instantly runs out into danger to find Bode and Eldrin. Look at the scenes with Dana, Thom and Helga Grinwell and tell me that isn't laying the groundwork for Mat post-healing.

(How and why do I remember Eldrin's name?!)

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

3) Mat gets partially healed

 

Fain will likely steal the dagger early, preventing the full healing. That also means that they might be chasing him through the Ways rather than than the opposite--which makes sense because I seriously doubt we'll see trollocs and myrddraal in TV.

Perhaps we'll see Rand brought before the Amyrlin like he was in TGH.

If they do merge a bunch of TGH Fal Dara scenes in here I can only hope we get a moment of Leane (or maybe Alanna to conserve actors) cooing over Perrin. Using Alanna would tie into the later plot arcs nicely.

I'd probably make a number of different choices, but the key word is 'different'--not necessarily better. Only two scenes thus far jump out at me as poorly executed:

1. Leaving Emond's Field. I think we really needed another scene between Tam and Rand to solidify the necessity of Rand (and the others) leaving the TR, and to strengthen the ambiguity of Moiraine's and the Aes Sedai's purpose. An extra 30 minutes could have made the first episode really sing, but, lacking that, I think you could shave off a few bits here and there and squeeze out an extra scene to make the ending a bit more natural.
2. Stepin's Funeral. I thought Lan finding him dead was a very powerful scene and I would have maybe shot that on the balcony where Kerene's ring was melted and ended the episode there. The funeral, in my opinion, lacked the same emotional weight.

I'd also make a few minor design changes:

1. I don't like the look Great Serpent rings. I understand why they're made more obvious, but they're very impractical to wear and look like costume jewellery to me.
2. The colour-coded Aes Sedai clothing is a big much. I think you could achieve a better visual look using the iconic Aes Sedai shawls.

Quote

You bloody helped her in this, didn't you?" she growled, focussing glassy-looking blue eyes on Aviendha. "First, she flaming vanishes out of my head, and then . . . !" She trembled, and visibly controlled herself, but even then she was breathing hard. Her legs did not seem to want to hold her upright.

 

-- A Lily In Winter, Winter's Heart, pg. 296

The scene goes on, but you get the idea. Birgitte and Elayne clearly mirror one another more than is typical for Aes Sedai and Warders.