6 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

I don't think that a common farmer not knowing that the DR is male is a minor change. Everyone, from the highest king to the lowest farmer knows this. 

...

Part of the fame/infamy of the Dragon is the tainted Saidin aspect, and the fact that everyone knows about the DR is one of the things that makes him so dangerous. He's able to summon thousands of followers from every rank of society. Otherwise False Dragons wouldn't be nearly as important.

 

Not sure.

Ok, people have heard the story of the dragon, but most of them are hazy on details, and on everything that has to do with the power. the stories people told in the two rivers at the beginning showcase great ignorance. people know that male channelers are cursed in some way, but only the educated know the distinction between saidin and saidar, and the taint. doesn't help that aes sedai worked hard to shroud themselves in mystery.

in the books, nobody would believe a woman dragon. But I say, having the uneducated masses believe it in the show would not be a huge stretch.

and let's still keep in mind this is all hypothetical, there's no evidence the show is going to do any of that

4 hours ago, TheMountain said:

In my view, if true, this has nothing to do with wanting to add mystery to who could be the Dragon Reborn. In the books, everybody knows that the DR can only be a man, from the highest king to the lowest farmer. If true, this change is for one reason, and one reason only. Somebody thought that saying the prophecized savior of the story could only be a man was problematic in today's climate, so they threw Egwene in the mix, major world-building consequences and lore-breaking ramifications be damned. Never mind the fact that Saidin is tainted and he's destined to go mad... "...details." Having any character contemplate a woman being the DR for even a moment would be seriously lore-breaking and fundamentally altering the history of Randland.

 

while i agree that it would create those inconsistencies, i have enough faith in the writing team to think they would also make whatever necessary changes to fix them.

Possibilities:

- this is a teaser, and it is rephrased to fool the viewers. _{no change to the plot}

- moiraine knows the dragon is a man, but the common farmer does not, and moiraine uses misdirection to grab egwene too, for reasons. _{only a small change to the plot}

- moiraine knows the dragon is a man, but she recognizes egwene as ta'veren and she figures she has an important role to play too, so she includes her among "people important to stop the DO". _{This would require changing egwene to ta'veren (lots of people think she should be one anyway) and having moiraine see that, small changes to the plot}

- the dragon can be a woman in certain turnings. This time saidin is tainted, but maybe in other turnings of the wheel or in other ages it's saidar that's tainted still, in this turning moiraine must know the dragon channels saidin

- there are a few confirmed in-world cases of people channeling the "wrong" power, generally linked to what we now would recognize as genetic conditions. I remember hearing a child born with a mix of XX and XY cells, what the hell is hir gender supposed to be? no, moiraine can feel the spark for saidar in egwene, this rules her out as saidin user

ok, moiraine must know egwene is not a possible dragon. and it has nothing to do with woke, it's just that the dragon is supposed to go mad for the taint, and egwene channels saidar.

And if they introduced plot holes, i would definitely not be happy.

but there are still the first three possibilities that are still open.

there was a big room full of people to finalize the script, among them people very familiar with the original work. I'd expect them to catch something of that importance.

1 hour ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

I like the way most of it looks ... Really dislike "The Last Dragon Reborn" ... she doesn't know that (and the prophecy doesn't say that). MAJOR SPOILER

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That Rand ends up being the Last Dragon is the major payoff and point of the ENTIRE SERIES

 

And ... I really, really dislike that Rafe has said now a couple times that the story is about Eastern beliefs and more about "balance" then light vs dark or good vs. evil. 

 

That worries me more than anything else by far because it tells me that he misunderstood the point of the ENTIRE SERIES!! 

 

Because you see - the oppressiveness of the cyclical worldview: that nomatter what you do everything is going to repeat. The Wheel will keep turning. Evil gets another shot to win... You see, the Wheel of Time itself ends up being the ultimate antagonist. 

Remember how it felt as a reader the first time you realized that the Forsaken would just come back Everytime? (That hopelessness is the major problem with the cyclical worldview).

 

How does evil ever ultimately get defeated if it's always just back again? That's the BIGGY question for that worldview. 

 

But Thank God. The Jewish people came along - and gave us a linear worldview. Time had a beginning. One God created everything. There will be a final judgement. Evil will one day (The Day of the Lord) be finally defeated and judged.

 

no. rafe got it right. wot is influenced by eastern motifs, based much more on those than on western ones. there are whole pages filled with references, and while there are christian ones, buddism is much more represented.

and in the end (do we really need spoilers? i guess there are some new readers here)

there is nothing about a final judgment in wot. you are projecting monotheistic religious themes where there are none.

anyone wants to comment on the scenery? even if there were no actors, just all those landscapes would be worth watching the show. regardless of how they render mashadar - i'd have preferred its original description as mist - the shot of aridhol is magnificent. so are those of tar valon we see in other clips, and even the ones of emond field.

by the way someone should compile a list of symbolism, because there's a lot of it. i didn't notice that the slaughtered sheep are in the shape of the dragon's fang until some other poster pointed it out, and then i noticed in the next scene the cavern is seen through a hole the shape of the flame of tar valon. i'm sure there's a lot more

2 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

This is just semantics so please don’t get mad, but doesn’t one of you four also imply all four could be? If she knows for certain one of them isn’t because the foretelling says “He”, shouldn’t she say, “one of you three.”

the three oaths work with perception. if the aes sedai believes she's respecting them, then she can say it. and in the strictly logical sense, "one of you four" is true. if it's enough for moiraine, then she can say it.

same as an aes sedai using the power as a weapon "if she feels in danger", but what does that mean exactly? and what does count as using as a weapon? if you hold someone still for your warder to kill, are you using the power as a weapon?

again, the interpretation goes to the individual aes sedai, and she can do stuff as long as she believes in her rationalization

even if they make egwene a candidate dragon in moiraine's search - and a ta'veren too -, it changes nothing for the story. moiraine arrives at emond field, takes 4 young people with her, leaves. Rand is eventually revealed the dragon.

if moiraine took egwene because she headbutted her way in, or because she takes a chance to recruit a channeler along the way leading her with false implications ("one of you 4 is the one the dark one is seeking" "I don't know which one" is a perfectly serviceable aes sedai truth, even if moiraine actually knows egwene can't be the one), or because the candidate dragons are 4 and not 3, there's no big difference.

And if egwene is part of rand's ta'veren web or if ta'veren herself, is there even a real difference? things mysteriously go her way often enough already.

As long as they don't actually make egwene the actual dragon, which I don't belive for an instant they will do, i can accept this change easily

and hey, if some people who are familiar with the books believe egwene may be the dragon, then the misdirection is really working ?

2 hours ago, Rose said:

Well, I think it's important in our world because we live in a world that is sharply divided along racial lines, in which racism has created deep wounds that are causing a lot of pain to a lot of people.

And yet, that mostly applies to america. Other countries with a different hystory are not so sharply divided, and they pay much less attention to those topics. It also goes by demographics.

This is what I meant with my (perhaps obscure) comment: most of those complaining about "race lift" are probably americans of political far right views. We can tell that the "world they live in" is permeated with mild racism and bigotry, and it shows in what they care about and the distinctions they make.

I'd be surprised if there were many europeans in that group, as in europe the "racial lines" are not a strong division (though of course we have those kind of people in europe too)

And the same goes for those who strongly support the casting of black people: members of minorities that see themselves as downtrodden, human right activists, people with left wing ideas, generally people who feel the impact of the "racial lines" and are especially opposed to them.

people who are not touched by the issue won't give a damn about the exact skin color of the actors. Probably because they live in a social context where racism is not an issue, and they only learn of it through the news. Personally, I didn't even notice that the actors were supposed to be black until i started reading forums and i saw all the stink that was being made about it.

also, the problem of hypervisibility is strongly related to media attention. there are a number of issues in our society, at some point the media focus on one of them and suddenly it becomes super important, and everyone will notice it, and people will become polarized in opposite views.

And fiction will focus on it, whatever it is. We depict strange cultures and alien civilizations, but they all tend to subscribe to our values.

50 years ago we wrote sci-fi with futuristic settings where everyone was white and the women would stay in the cyber-kitchen. Unless it was a society ruled by women, which was the same thing as the other one, but with genders swapped. And every alien civilization would be a democracy, and they'll probably have a monotheistic religion, unless the book was written in the soviet block, then they'd be communists and atheists. But works written in more ancient times (not that there's many of them) are more likely to have kings instead.

Now we are struggling for equality against racism and sexism, and suddenly we imagine ancient societies full of powerful, emancipated women, with nobody giving a damn about race or religion.

And most of us don't even think about that. we just take the culture for granted. which is perhaps the source of disconnect when it doesn't align to our sensibilities.

I'd like to end with some poignant conclusions, but really, I am just rambling about the connections between the stories we tell ourselves and our cultures. i find them interesting to notice, though.

1 hour ago, Rose said:

 

 That we as readers see it as important is a reflection of the world we live in, not anything in the books.

most of us do not see it as important.

that some people see it as important may reflect the world they live in, though.

1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

But why tell false information?

because people misremember. the human memory will often alter small details over time

9 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

In this video's comments:

 

 

 

Everyone has their right to express opinions but some of that is just blatantly false. Annoys the heck out of me.

it is a well-known fact that people persuaded of an opinion will try to latch to proof of that opinion, and be more disregardful of other evidence.

I want to enjoy this show and i am focusing on the positive, but those who don't are focusing on the negative.

i really can't tell if he has a mustache or if it is a play of the shadow in the image.

if it is not a mustache, perhaps they thought the image would not fit with a younger thom.

from the material I've seen so far, I got the impression that they put enough care into details, and that when they changed stuff they generally had good reasons. I'll wait and see the overall effect

i always imagined thom as between 50 and 60. older than that, he would be much less believable.

aside from that, making a character 10 years younger is not a big deal, not as much as 20 years younger.

I don't see what was wrong with the patched cloak, though. it was just a mark of trade.

the new image of the whitecloacks has the sunburn on the shoulder visible. i also like that the hem of their cloth is dirty, there's no way you can keep that pristine white on the field. in the other shot we get of them, they were clean; perhaps they just rested in a city and they had a chance to do laundry, while here they've been on the move for a while.

we also get the scene of rand arriving to emond field with his wounded father, and this pairs with one scene on the bts showing a door bursting which is most likely the attack of winternight. this time rand put his father on bela instead of making a litter and carrying it himself, but it's not an important change; i assume they've done it because it's faster to show this way.

all in all, the size of the show and the attention to details is very reassuring. the only fear i have is that game of thrones was equally well funded and staffed, and it still turned bad in the later seasons.

42 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

Not a lot of budget allocated to the Whitecloak Armor I see ?

24 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Be careful about drawing sweeping conclusions from snippets. They aren’t wearing armor in this scene. That doesn’t mean that they never wear it. 

they ARE wearing armor. If you see underneath the tabard, it is bulging with the shape of armor. the second guy from the left, look at his shoulders, if that's not a breastplate underneath the tabard I don't know what it is. And the guy in the front, his left arm with all the laminar segments. Either they are wearing armor under the clothes, or they have a very good imitation.

Now, armor is hot, and wearing cloth over the armor will be impractical, will make you tire faster during combat. that white must also be a nightmare to keep clean on the field. But the children of the ligth are known for being impractical, so I see nothing wrong there.

the only thing missing is the golden sunburst on the chest, aside from that i can't think of any description they contradict

27 minutes ago, Skipp said:

 

Isn't this exactly what Alsbet Luhhan is said to have done?

i was going to mention it, but alsbeth luhhan is said to be even bigger than her husband. and a pot with a long handle is a pretty effective bludgeoning weapon. A solid blow on the head with one is going to take down any men, and probably even a horse.

If they show that scene right, it won't cheaper the trollocs. Same goes for other examples of the villagers resisting; for example they could show someone skewering a trolloc on a pitchfork, or bringing out a longbow and pincushion a few. Even stabbing one with a kitchen knife would not make them harmless, as long as the trollocs still get to kill plenty of people.

If they want to keep the focus on all three ta'veren, i expec they will add scenes of both perrin and mat fighting for their lives, in addition to rand on his farm.

The main problem with trollocs not being seen as a legitimate threat is that all the main characters grow ridiculously powerful, fast

5 hours ago, redgiant said:

which they seem bent on hiding a full-on view of.
 

the last poster released has a full view of a trolloc face. when i say they look good, that's my main reference.

if we want to withold judgment about them moving, i can agree we haven't seen them move much except for small, split-second clips.

if we want to talk about the feeling they evoke, that's highly subjective. I don't find them fearsome, but neither I did the lotr orcs.

But fear is built more by reputation and deeds than by aspects. I wouldn't find a nazi brigade fearsome either, if I didn't knew what it represent and what it stands for.

the big question is, why this site doesn't have a big news announcement about this clip, and the shadowspawn one?

i was thinking the black is saidin, because saidin is black. the aes sedai symbol has saidar in white and saidin in black, after all. the taint is not supposed to be channeled, the taint is absorbed by the channeler but it does not come out in the flows, the flows wielded are pure.

but then, this is a fine distinction to explain in a tv show. First reaction was "omg this is an unacceptable warping of the narrative", second reaction was "what does this actually change about the story?", and after a minute I couldn't find any definitive answer for why it's so bad, so I assume it's ok.

2 hours ago, Beidomon said:

The White Tower scenes looked equally posed but maybe those chicks are just extremely uptight and proper when they’re in the Hall.

 

yes, they are. that's how meetings in the hall went.

well, normal meeting. there are the odd ones where something very unsettling is proposed and some aes sedai start vomiting...

2 hours ago, Rose said:

I'm pretty sure it's known when Alvaro Morte was filming and it wasn't until they started shooting episode 3. So there's a good chance we won't see him in the first couple of episodes. That's never 100% guaranteed to be accurate but so far these types of leaks have been reliable. 

then again, they don't have to film stuff in the same order as they show it in the film. while it makes sense to focus on shooting specific episodes because you can use the sets and some of the actors will only be present for that part, they can still take 5 minutes of the clips filmed with logain and show them in episode 1.

7 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I don't see Winternight until episode 2.  Gotta spread the action out...

winternight is, like, chapter 6. you can't spend a whole episode without getting even this far, not unless you include significant stuff that in books comes later. Also, I don't think the public would want to spend a whole hour watching a bunch of farmer living their normal farming lives

3 hours ago, Rose said:

 

We get a pretty good look at the Trolloc on the new poster from yesterday, but yeah, I want a full-body shot haha

 

What I like about the Myrddraal is that it looks sorta normal from afar, just a black cloaked rider with creepy vibes, then as you look closer you start to notice its unnatural coloring and the lack of eyes and the inhuman face... and then it opens its mouth, and it's straight out of a horror movie. The juxtaposition of terrifying monstrosity hidden under a human-like appearance hits that uncanny valley effect really well.

yes, that's why i liked the new design even though some are criticizing it. it conveys the right feelings.

well, those trollocs look wonderful. even if the show was a complete failure, it would still give me a good, clear picture of how to imagine trollocs for the next reread

I consider the poster a canonical source. And i don't see what else those weaves could be

1 hour ago, Borderlander said:

2) The fact that all the arrows are clustered so tightly together is... maybe not impossible, but kind of implausible. Half a dozen arrows, fired from a distance by half-a-dozen archers, arcing up high, and they all are more or less parallel with one another AND basically equidistant from their target (meaning the arrowheads are all lined up?) Like, not even one arrow is a foot or two behind the pack? Not even one had a slightly different trajectory? And all the arrows look to be converging on a single target, since they are all within a few feet of one another? Which means, what? All the archers were shooting at a single Aes Sedai? When there are multiple Aes Sedai and warders all clustered together? Again, it's possible, I suppose... I get that these are all experienced warriors, and lifelong archers perhaps, but that uniformity strikes my eye as bordering on the unbelievable. 

I had the same thought about the arrows flying in formation, but I accept it as the kind of stuff movies do. an acceptable break from reality, if you will. having the arrows fly more separately, and still all hitting the air shield and stopping or bouncing when they got there, would have worked equally well. but it's the kind of stuff fiction does to try and appear more spectacular.

if i let that bother me, i would stop looking at fiction entirely

1 hour ago, Borderlander said:

3) And the last thing that just tips the balance into cheesiness for me is the Power itself, floating around the arrows like traces of gossamer-smoke. Which is also how the healing weaves look. And the lightning-weaves. They all just look the same. To me, the Power-CGI looks incredibly generic, especially when there are so many possible braids and patters and types of stitching that could have been drawn on to illustrate 'weaving.' The books are so full of characters discovering new weaves as the series goes on; I recall scenes where women watched Nynaeve healing and could barely understand what they were looking at because her weaves were so complex. But all we have seen (so far) is floating gossamer-smoke. I guess it stops arrows AND heals AND calls down lightning. Maybe that's why they call it the ONE Power? ?

I have also a similar beef with how we saw the power used in the teaser trailer; but it's a problem of how the power is represented, it doesn't have anything to do with the arrow scene.

but there are posters where we see what look like threads, and they have different colors. this give me hope that we will get to see the power in its full glory from the eyes of channelers, in a few scenes at least.

it's the first time we get to see a trolloc up close, i always reserved judgment on those because a few blurred pixels are not enough to judge anything, now i say: wow!

I never could properly picture trollocs in my head, too complex to mix up so much stuff and get a coherent image.

also, those multicolored threads give me hope that we can see the power in full color with the different elements. it was somewhat of a let down from the teaser trailer

the scene clearly represents the burning of the trolloc bodies after the attack on emond field. It doesn't make too much sense for moiraine to drag bodies personally, we know she exhausted herself healing people. but they needed to stick her in the poster, she's the most famous actor in the cast

4 hours ago, Borderlander said:

That said, this one is a pretty minor nitpick for me. I just hope they don't have too many forehead-smackers  (i.e. flying ax-man; frozen arrows.)

 

 

what's wrong with the frozen arrows?

the flying ax-man, I'm all for it, i already expressed criticism about it. but frozing the arrows mid-air? it's a perfectly established use of the power, and i saw nothing wrong with it. what am i missing?

in the context of the first episode, when will that scene come? is it even a scene taken exactly?

We've been told, more than one year ago, that the show would open with lan and moiraine along the road. This scene looks very much like an introduction to them, though, which brought me to think maybe this was the first scene in the episode.

But this clearly makes no sense. rand and perrin talks about egwene's ceremony, and we see it on the teaser trailer. it would make little sense to show it in flashback, so we get the ceremony before this. And probably more scenes.

But then, this scene makes no sense if they weren't introducing lan and moiraine as characters here. which makes me think they either changed their mind about the first scene, and will instead introduce them later. Or they added a bit more of extra emphasis on their reveal in the scene that got released.