1 minute ago, RhienneAgain said:

Sidenote related to this - why did Steppin get the OTT expression of grief by Lan but Karen didn't get similar? I get hers wasn't a formal funeral but they bothered with the candles and laying the graves out in a wheel so could easily have included a chief mourner.

Stepin's may have been based on his culture while the mass buried may have followed standard Aes Sedai protocol insofar as they could. Or maybe Warders have their own separate rituals.

32 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

And as you know the Questioners wrt to the WC, were the Inquisitors wrt to the otherwise tolerant Church.

What happened in Spain is somewhat of an outlier. The common law system prior to inquisitional methods basically involved a bunch of people stepping forward with testimony with little to no evidence requirements. The development of the inquisitional system took steps to actual require prosecutors to collect evidence for review and move away from trials based entirely on witness testimony and to be a more reliable and just trial system. The system actually included minimum standards for the treatment of prisoners and rules preventing (given the standards of the time) mistreatment of prisoners and excessive questioning methods.

What happened in Spain included numerous abuses to the inquisition system that was developed by the Church and was used by the state as a tool for its own agenda.

Now, I'm not saying the inquisitional system is a paragon of justice, or is as good as or better than today's systems and laws. But in context of what it was moving on from, it was really intended to raise the bar on how trials were conducted. (Talking about the inquisitional system and not the Spanish Inquisition in particular).

10 minutes ago, FanofKnotai said:

 No, they in fact are not. But neither do they torture unnecessarily. Harass yes. Detain and rough-handle yes. But outright filleting of skin no. I believed the beating of the tinkers. I believed the whole encounter up until the filleting of the skin (and assumptions of her abilities) without cause

You're thinking regular Children. Questioners, the "Hand of the Light", are well known in the books to use torture in their questioning of suspected darkfriends to gain confessions.

1 minute ago, FanofKnotai said:

BS. They had done nothing to deserve torture even by WC very low standards. This was simply a poor means of setting up the escape and the future conflict. It would have even been acceptable if they had hurt one of his men when they were running away with Aram. Then he could use the “only a witch of the dark can best a child of the light” mentally that a lot of WC have in the series. That would explain his insistence that Egwene can channel. This is just poor storytelling. 

Truly, Questioners are known for their balanced, measured, and fair judgment in the books.

They traveled with a likely Aes Sedai. They fled from Children of the Light. Who would flee if they had nothing to fear under the Light but darkfriends?

25 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

So if you watch the "making of Epi 5" feature, the whole warder funeral thing was just totally made up. 

Well... yeah. There's not exactly an encyclopedia of funeral customs for all the Westland cultures.

I think Lan was showing his emotions. He would normally bury these emotions and present a stoic face, but as the designated mourner taking on and expressing the grief of everyone present, he let it out.

Book Lan isn't emotionless. He just doesn't let other people get a read on them.

2 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Clarifying - don't disagree that they did a good job with the prosthetics/make-up, but that they didn't differentiate him enough from humans.  He looks like a large man to me, not a different race/species.

Perhaps. They did give him a broad, flat nose. Not sure if that came across. And sausage thick fingers/hands. I didn't see pointy ears, though.

1 minute ago, Sabio said:

I do think it still would of been better to have Perin stab the Whitecloak and not Egwene.  The killing whitecloaks was a big thing of his story arc.  Seemed an unnecessary change.

With Perrin confessing in just that moment it would have been a bit much. But I do think Perrin shoving him down and him hitting his head and going unconscious would have been enough. Maybe have Perrin weigh doing more and tossing aside a weapon. It'd still be different from the book, but I feel like he needs to be shown as at least initiating some action.

5 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I understand his reasoning, just think it takes too much away from the ogier race.  And I think the make-up was atrocious.  Stilts/raised boots were not enough.  Loial is not an 'action' character for most of the books.  Make him absolutely tower over the other characters.  When the ogiers eventually fight, you can get rid of that stuff and film them separately in their battles against trollocs.

I'm of a difference of opinion on the Ogier height and am fine to leave it there, but as to the make up, I suggest looking at Loial in motion in the episodes. The prosthetics and make up look great.

4 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

 

Wow, that is the first clear picture I've seen of Loial.  How anyone can mix up an ogier and a trolloc I'll never understand.  Other than his enormous hands he looks human-ish to me.

 

Like I said - he is an extremely important character, but he was secondary.  For scenes that require him they couldn't do the camera trick thing?

Some people have never seen a Trolloc or Ogier.

According to Rafe, those camera tricks and multi-takes of the same scene in different sized sets and all the other tricks would eat too much into their budget, and he'd prefer to have Loial (who he called a core character) present for more scenes rather than reduce the number of scenes he appears in due to filming and budget constraints. So they went with practical effects and stilts/raised boots.

The Steppin stuff felt a bit long. I expect they're trying to set up Lan's bond being broken later. They had Moiraine probing Alanna about passing the bond, so we may see that this season, and what happened with Steppin as kind of the backdrop justification for Moiraine acting as she does behind Lan's back. If they don't show us that or reference it it'll be a missed opportunity. Siuan and Egwene later make the point that doing that to a Warder is comparable, as Aes Sedai see it, to rape. So Moiraine (and the viewer) seeing what happens to Steppin puts us in her head.

I gotta say, if all they've given Valda is a ter'angreal like Mat's I'm a bit disappointed. What about his other men? What if the Aes Sedai decides to hurl something at him? Forkroot/drugs would just make much more sense.

Just get a wolf sitting still and looking serenely at Perrin and make it talk telepathically. COME ON RAFE 

So I don't think anyone has said anything yet, but Valda must have a ter'angreal, right? Something similar to Mat's Foxhead medallion? He played off Egwene's fireball as being incredibly weak, but he was not worried at all and has faced more experienced Aes Sedai.

According to the behind the scenes for this episode, they intended it to be bookended by two funerals to emphasize the relationship between Aes Sedai and Warder. And they had Alanna do a special kind of song only a woman's voice can do, and a nameless warder do a special kind of singing only a man's voice can do. Also, they intentionally modelled the Warder funeral on traditions that have a single designated mourners who takes on and expresses everyone's grief. So there was definitely a ritualistic component in Lan being the designated mourner.

Just now, Harad the White said:

Do AS rings melt in the Book?

I don't recall it ever being mentioned. We never saw that type of ritual in the books. 

Pretty sure White Cloaks are near Tar Valon during the books. Maybe not this early. But they were harassing the surrounding area.

Like someone else said, this was a take a breath episode. And like all the other episodes I watched, I'm still processing. I kept waiting for Moiraine to find Mat and hiss for everyone to step away. Hopefully we see that next episode. Lots of new warder and Aes Sedai funeral rituals, and I can't help but wish for a little more book stuff instead, but I get it. And my first watch always seems to be focusing on what's different rather than just enjoying the episode. I'll do my regular rewatch another day.

I am a bit disappointed we haven't seen any Fades talk, we haven't see ol' ember eyes talk, and we still haven't seen any wolf talk. I want that stuff.

2 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

The Jordan facts are that not a single opportunity was seized in 3500 years. 

Or more simply that no opportunities were realized.

1 minute ago, Harad the White said:

Ok, we just moved the injustice back 2500 years. Progress!

 

IRL slavery goes back 1000's of years. If it weren't for people like Harriet Beecher Stowe, and Abraham Lincoln it might still be here. There are always opportunities in history to correct injustice. The fact that the some opportunities are not taken, does not correct or justify the injustice. The Universe of Jordan grinds slowly. Maybe if the people of Aridhol had not turned their backs on the World, a different, quicker, and more positive way to cleanse the 'taint would have been made available. Mebe 950 years before SL there were missed opportunities. The Jordan facts are that not a single opportunity was seized in 3500 years. 

Well, if we're really on it, the access keys were not rediscovered until about a year or two before the taint was cleansed. Same for Rand's wound. 

Tower Law did not mean gentling the Dragon. You're confusing the Vileness for their custom.

Also, I never said the gentled men weren't victims. I said that if they were not gentled they would inevitably go mad and cause mass destruction and that severing had only been adopted as a standard practice as a last resort to try to prevent a second breaking after other methods failed. None of that makes them "not victims."

10 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

And this was the only path to cure the 'taint? 

Shadar Logoth (which did not exist until 1000+ years after the Breaking), the lost Choedan Kal access keys, hints given to Rand by the Finns were all needed, along with an understanding the the evil of Shadar Logoth was capable of noise-cancelling the evil of the Taint (which Rand learned about through his unique wound), and the analysis of a philosopher. These are all chance event crossing at the right place and the right time.

Yes, Moiraine was not acting on any idea of injustice for male channelers. She had privileged information that the Dragon had been reborn and her mission was entirely on the Dragon due to his role in the Last Battle.

1 minute ago, Harad the White said:

C'mon, man. The death penalty for measles? I won't have it!

 

But you are right, that IF it were impossible to find a solution, other mitigation was needed. That doesn't make it, necessarily, correct or justified.  Geniuses in our history made progress, to invent and cure things that were "impossible." Moiraine was the person who came along, like a Louis Pasteur with fireballs. This doesn't appear to be a World where things change very rapidly. Think back 3500 in human history, and judge why it took 3500 years for Moiraine to appear.

It took 3500 years for Gitara Moroso to be born and have a foretelling with Moiraine present for it?

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

Interesting side note:

In Czech folklore (according to the person who studied it that told me, anyway), horses have great significance as mentors/guides of the hero. 

Which means that many elderly Czech men really were caring about Bela's longterm arc without knowing what Wheel of Time is, assuming that she was the talking horse that guides the hero to the end of the adventure.

You know the voice that Rand hears at the end of EOTW? Bela.

2 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

And one can make inappropriate analogies but it doesn't win points in an argument.

Yes, I said that already. ?

2 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Or, one can argue, thankfully, that the 3,500 years of mistaken behavior led to the catastrophe in modern times. 

One can argue the world is flat. Doesn't mean the argument is justified or supported. ?‍♂️