My opinion on S1: Got off to an unsteady start and failed to find its stride, face planting at the end.

My opinion of S2 so far: It's come out of the gate strong.

If season two maintains its quality as a TV show I could move this to my "would recommend" column.

It's a quite liberal adaptation. I'd gobble up fourteen seasons of a near shot for shot adaptation of the books. But I've come to accept it. I think there are good justifications for why this is what we get, which helps me accept it. I honestly don't believe he's changing things just for the sake of changing things. I think there are legit reasons in terms of the scope executives were willing to greenlight, budget, actor commitments....

My opinion of Rafe as a showrunner has improved. I know there are concerns about the changes, but putting interpretation aside, and just in terms of "good television" and writing... I had some doubts after season one. Those doubts are starting to be out to rest.

I'm going to put this in spoiler tags as it doesn't just say "expect full book spoilers" but says "expect full book spoilers ON THIS TOPIC". Does that mean full books? Or just all books on these plot poonts?

I've only seen S2E1 so far. How much mileage you get out of it is going to depend on what bothered you (if anything) from season one. I'm very pleased with significant improvements to production, from the writing and cinematography and costuming. There were a lot of complaints about the first season feeling like a young adult CW show, and I did not get that at all from this episode.

If your complaints were about how the story is being distilled into episodes, then I think people will be disappointed. I wrote earlier today that ultimately Rafe has to plot this show to fit into far less episodes than it would take to make a high fidelity adaptation. That's just a fact of the matter. I was pleased with the interpretation of characters. Perrin being the one to write letters, and him holding onto his wedding ring both felt very "Perrin" to me. I'm curious how they'll go about reintegrating Mat into the plot. The red ajah/Liandrin capture was predicted, but I wasn't counting on it.

I'm excited to see where this goes. I like the episode a lot more than the trailers. It exceeded my low expectations.

28 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Read: "Seeing my preferred political opinions on TV > fidelity to source material." 

 

Got it. While we're at it, why doesn't Rafe make the Whitecloaks the good guys to appeal to all the Catholics in the audience? Does he not care about how hurt Catholic people might feel when the closest analog to themselves the show has to offer are presented as villains? Smh. 

As a Catholic I find your comparison to the White Cloaks offensive, but you know...

I haven't seen any of S2 yet, might start in a moment. But I'm going to harp on there being only 64 episodes (optimistically) to tell the whole story, which means conveying the same motifs and general arc outlines of the sprawling book story (in which a significant amount is told through character's internal thoughts) in a relatively very short run time. And this means recapitulating all of the feels, lore, and development into different scenes which make the same point even if entirely original, and sometimes points that were spread out across different books and scenes all need to be made within the same TV scene.

The writing decisions ultimately fall on Rafe, but there is a hard truth that this adaptation has to be planned as shorter than it would need to be to have very high fidelity to the books. That's just the reality of the situation, and a constraint Rafe needs to work within.

I'd love a more shot for shot version, but this is what we get at this time.

And just because what I wrote in my first paragraph is true, it doesn't of course mean the execution will be good. The actual execution is a whole different kettle of fish.

Sorry for the double post. I've now watched the video.

Again, I'll comment in YouTube as well, but each point you make is substantive and I agree very much. I especially like what you said about tGH being a better book than EotW. I haven't reflected on this in awhile, but during the run up and early episodes of S1, I did speak to EotW being a more awkward and difficult book to adapt to television. And that had completely slipped my mind until now, but it is absolutely valid. It's certainly an opportunity for a more directed and purposeful TV plot.

I haven't watched your channel before, but I'll add that I appreciate this video being focused, substantive, and to the point. It was not long winded like some things I've seen.

I haven't watched the video yet, though I plan to.

I definitely think this season can be much better, though whether a person likes it or not will depend on what bothered them about the previous season.

My thoughts on why it will be better than season one are:

• No COVID lockdown issues affecting directing, writing, and visual effects quality.
• No cast issues (hopefully)
• A lot of the initial investment is finished and more time and money can be spent on actual episodes.
• Opportunity to review what worked and didn't work in season one and adjust.
• More time for script writing without (hopefully) last minute rewrites due to circumstances.

Overall I think it'll be a much better executed package. I don't think there is reason for those who disagree with certain changes from the books to expect an about face on that.

Edit: I'll add YouTube comments later.

Multiple pedestals with the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai are standing, and one is toppled. Does this signify the Seven Seals?

I'm counting six total. Though they might have just changed the number of Seals. Or maybe one is just harder to find.

On 7/2/2023 at 12:08 AM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Or more accurately that Logain in his madness sincerely believes them to be past dragons (but also believes that he knows better so he ignores their incitement to violent actions).

 

In the books he earned the title "Telamon" (in the old toung literally "the Dragon") in the same way that other prominent figures earned a third, honorific, name for their acts (several of the Forsaken have these for example in their known original names).  While there were other previous chosen ones they were not necessarily this soul nor were they necessarily known as the dragon.  The Flashback scene in the show with the subtitles showing the reference to "dragon reborn" is either an error or a deliberate change.

I have in my head that Telamon, LT's third name, means Heart of the World/Worldheart. I feel pretty confidently about this from ancient discussions on the forums, but now am having trouble sourcing it. Dragon is aman, not amon. We find "tel" in Tel'Aran'Rhiod for world of dreams, and amon also in Ba'alzamon (Heart of the Dark; this is the Trolloc tongue, but it would have been derived from the Old Tongue). He was given his third name before the drilling of the Bore, the Decline, and War of Power.

Dragon, I believe, was a separate title given to him as the appointed war leader for the Light. This was not in reference to his soul, but was just a title. It gained its prophetic significance after the Breaking through many foretellings about his rebirth, and looks to build more of a religious significance in the Fourth Age (according to the little excerpts we get at the beginning and end of books).

EDIT: I found a source from RJ that Telamon does not mean Dragon or The Dragon.

https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=183

Quote

 

QUESTION

Does Telamon mean "dragon" or does it mean "Kinslayer" or is it something else?

ROBERT JORDAN

What? In Lews Therin Telamon? No, no. It means something else. That's his name. Lews Therin is the name he was born with. Telamon, a name he was given later.

 

I can't say I'm hyped by the trailer, but I'm still open to the season. I was on board with most of season one. It wasn't my dream adaptation, but I accepted it. Though it kind of finished on a huge dud for me. Part of that can be attributed to actor and lockdown issues, and last minute rewrites. If S2 can be more of (most of) S1 but higher in quality and at least execute their vision well (S1E8 was not a well executed vision), I'll be okay.

I should give the S2 trailer a few more watches.

Pretty sure the Oaths became a thing after the Trolloc Wars, not Hawkwing, due to distrust created from all the Dreadlords.

Brown: Scholarship. Interested in preserving/archiving history and other knowledge.

White: Philosophers, logicians, theologians

Yellow: Healers, the art of healing.

Green: Battle against the Shadow.

Red: Preventing another Breaking by gentling male channelers, as no other method has been found.

Gray: Diplomacy, mediation, politics.

Blue: Devotion to particular causes within the outside world, justice. I'd say a belief that Aes Sedai need to really involve themselves.

The Ajahs weren't made by the Tower, so much as they are what are left of the original factions that founded the tower, and their beliefs about what Aes Sedai should be devoted to.

Actually, it was Rand who made the gateway to T'A'R while following Ishy. Rand's narrative is broken up by other POVs.

Quote

 

Ba’alzamon fled, man and shadow vanishing.

 

For a moment Rand stared, frowning. There had been a sense of—folding—as Ba’alzamon left. A twisting, as if Ba’alzamon had in some way bent what was. Ignoring the men staring at him, ignoring Moiraine crumpled at the column base, Rand reached out, through Callandor, and twisted reality to make a door to somewhere else. He did not know to where, except that it was where Ba’alzamon had gone.

 

“I am the hunter now,” he said, and stepped through.

 

...

 

Rand was still in the Heart of the Stone, but it was different. There were no men fighting here, no dead men, no one at all but himself. Abruptly the sound of a great gong rang through the Stone, then again, and the very stones beneath his feet resonated. A third time the booming came, but cut off abruptly, as if the gong had shattered. All was still.

 

Where is this place? he wondered. More important, where is Ba’alzamon?

As if to answer him, a blazing shaft like the one Moiraine had made shot out of the shadows among the columns, straight toward his chest. His wrist twisted the sword instinctively; it was instinct as much as anything else that made him loose flows from saidin into Callandor, a flood of the Power that made the sword blaze brighter even than that bar streaking at him. His uncertain balance between existence and destruction wavered. Surely that torrent would consume him.

 

The shaft of light struck the blade of Callandor—and parted on its edge, forking to stream past on either side. He felt his coat singe from its near passage, smelled the wool beginning to burn. Behind him, the two prongs of frozen fire, of liquid light, struck huge redstone columns; where they struck, stone ceased to exist, and the burning bars bored through to other columns, severing those instantaneously as well. The Heart of the Stone rumbled as columns fell and shattered in clouds of dust, sprays of stone fragments. What fell into the light, however, simply—was not, anymore.

 

After he beats Ishy he finds himself back in the real Stone with a battle going on around him but the architecture of the Stone restored.

Regarding Rand splitting balefire, it's been a couple years since I've reread the scene, but hadn't they crossed over into T'A'R? Rand believed he could deflect the balefire weave, so he did.

Rand did not know about T'A'R, nor was he aware he was there, but I thought they crossed through some type of strange gateway Ishy had created with the True Power between the real world and T'A'R. 

I'm not sure how it'd all tie in, but I can almost imagine coming back to Rand after a short time skip, and he's joined a band of Shienarian mercenaries or just soldiers, which brings in Uno and Ingtar (or equivalents) and gets him some martial training. Not sure if he ties directly into the horn, or if he's going straight for Callandor after some revelation.

I'm also expecting season two to basically adapt books 2 and 3. Perhaps back to back, but more likely condensed/paralleled into one arc.

What GOT and HOTD have that WOT and ROP lack is stronger writing, imo. 

I don't think it's the color palette or aesthetic or the actors. I think it really boils down to the writing.

Casting for elves is difficult because while they seem to grow in some type of aura and maturity they are immortal and should have no signs of age (physical deterioration) in the way humans do. But you can't just cast 20 to 35 year olds.

17 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

 

By far the greatest difference here is that Moiraine does not reveal that one of them is the Dragon Reborn.

I blame executives.

Probably.

I don't know.

Seems like an executive thing to do.

1 hour ago, wotfan4472 said:

Elayne mentioned mining towns that mined for metal in the Mountains Of Mist. She spoke of them, because her mother, and even previous Queens had issues with those towns off and on during their reigns, and it is described clearly that their difficulty with those towns is what helped the Two Rivers isolation from the Queen for that period of time.

Am aluminum mine was mentioned at one point.

The word "saidin" was used in the conversation between Lews and Petra in the Old Tongue. Listen and you'll hear "saidin" said, even though the subtitles say "One Power."

I need to watch episode eight again. I walked away from seven feeling pretty positive. Eight left me a little disgruntled, but I may feel better on a rewatch. The changes with Rand actually parallel Veins of Gold and his final confrontation with the Dark One. The symmetry is obviously intentional.

I'm not sure how I feel about the seeming changes to LTT' motivations, and I feel like there's some missed opportunities. Changes aside, I really don't think the show ever hit any consistent stride, and I'm not satisfied by the script writing. I really hope that improves for season two.

They're condensing TGH and TDR into a single plot arc. 

17 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

@Agitel

 

To be fair “Adaptation” includes both sets. Direct adaptations. And Changed ones. 

 

It is like the Muppet Christmas Carol vs Scrooged. 

 

Both are adaptations. Both have elements. But one is far more true to the source. 

 

I still enjoy them both. 

Fair. I enjoy a lot of looser adaptations of things I've read, too. In most cases where that happens, like A Christmas Carol, I already have a dozen strict adaptations to choose from, so getting a novel take is fine by me. The show, which again I'm not saying I'm done with, is just not what I wanted.

And before someone accuses me of needing a "page for page" adaptation... please don't. When I say things like I'm fine with the horn being moved, or the changes in episode four to see Logain, or with the girls linking to destroy the trolloc horde, or that I'm fine with smooshing TGH and TDR plot arcs into one, and I'm even okay with restructuring Ishy's confrontation with Rand... I think it's pretty clear I don't need page for page. Just some of these alterations to core principles (in my not humble enough opinion) to Jordan's setting are not sitting well with me. I don't think those alterations are necessary to condense and adapt the story, or to make it intelligible to show watchers.

But you know what they say about opinions... *shrugs*

I'll probably be a bit more positive on rewatch. But still.

I couldn't help but be a little hyped for the Seanchan. Not sure how practical it is to flood a small coastal village when your goal is to conquer and bring order to places like that. Oh, there I go again.

That was definitely still Ishy we saw. As much as I'm ticked at some of the alterations to the setting, I'll just point out that EOTW was really very vague about who Rand confronted, too.