I think I'm hopping onto the bandwagon that this is no longer an adaptation of the books but is just based on the books in some way. This isn't just condensing and restructuring which I could accept for much of the season. All these lore changes are adding up to quite a bit. And some of my complaints might seem petty. I know they don't want to over-lore the readers, but certainly the could do more than this. Why refer to LTT as the Dragon Reborn and not just the Dragon? Why not mention that they were in a losing war with the Shadow? Why miss the incredibly obvious opportunity for Moiraine to mention that she can't teach him because the one half of the power he wields is different than what she does? Why does Rand "feel the madness" and not the corruption?

Those things bother me more than them giving the Tarwin's Gap power destruction to the girls, or relocating the Horn of Valere. Those things I can accept as condensing and adapting. But why bother with all the other little changes? I don't think it'd be overburdening watchers to drop easy hints like "oh there was a war going on 3000 years ago." Or why the Wheel seems to be one repeating age instead of seven (or some unspecified amount).

I'm not done with the show. I need to cool off a bit, rewatch it later. And I realize everything in my list sounds small. But I really feel like they've done more than condense and adapt the plot. It feels like they've altered the foundation.

I'll have to cool off a bit. Out of control of the show, makes me wonder what they're going to do with Mat. Definitely feels like Mat was always planned to be there (though what they'd have done with Perrin in that case I've no idea). I mean, I have an idea of where Mat's plot could easily pick up, but I'm not sure how they'll weave it all together. We're definitely going into mixed TGH and TDR territory, if you ask me.

A Creator doesn't imply a beginning. Even theologians like Thomas Aquinas acknowledged the metaphysical possibility of the world having an infinite past while not denying its need for a creator. (He of course believed there was a beginning, but on faith, not on any metaphysical or philosophical necessity). A Creator in this sense is one whose act of creation spans to all existence at all points in time. Not one who just gets the ball rolling at some beginning.

But without mixing it with too much Christian metaphysics, a Creator doesn't imply a beginning. I go with the opening quotes of the books and what RJ says. "There are neither beginnings nor endings to the Wheel of Time."

I'm concerned Rafe is going to kill her off this season at the Eye.

I wish they'd mentioned that the DR was prophesied to be reborn on Dragonmount. Maybe they will in the next episode, but for all that has been shown the audience, it really makes no difference if the DR be born in the Two Rivers, Tear, or Dragonmount. Rand not being Tam's son seems to have no meaning as to whether he's the DR.

3 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

 

He he he

Moiraine's playing 4D chess. She knows the reds are the one Ajah that wouldn't bond even a ta'veren on the spot.

I kid, I kid.

Or do I?

I feel like Fain has to end up at the Eye. Or in conflict with our main characters somewhere this season. Maybe Fain is Ishy all along. I say that mostly in jest. My initial thought was maybe he's a male channeler and a darkfriend.

3 minutes ago, ManetherenTaveren said:

I wonder how much of this episode (and the next) was rewritten due to Barney's self-gentling? 

I wonder if some last minute rewrites impacted Perrin's arc a lot this episode, among other things.

I can't say I'm a fan of Perrin's love triangle arc. I'm not sure I see how that goes anywhere or sets anything up. Otherwise I did enjoy the episode.

They sped up Nynaeve and Lan's arc and there is a little purist in me who thinks it should have been otherwise, but I understand it from a TV season standpoint and fleshing out their chemistry more.

Before I read this topic, I'll just say it was nice to spend some time with the main cast again.

I am concerned about how any battle at the Eye will look. I feel like battles with the OP will look more cheesy in live action than in animation. That's a broad, general comment about any possible live adaptation, and not specific to the show we have.

It seems weird to make a filtered pool of pure saidin just as a barrier, especially when we know there are wards around Callandor that serve a similar purpose. Why would male and female Aes Sedai sacrifice themselves for this? The explanation seems to me to be that they wanted the Dragon to be able to learn to channel without working with the taint and going mad. They did not anticipate the Dragon and the Forsaken using it all up in minutes in a high stakes battle.

Just now, Jaysen Gore said:

Basically, she's saying "if you're not a demigod like the DR, you are going to get squashed like a Tairen grape in what's to come"

She speaks as if it's a matter of prophecy. But I don't know what book stuff it could be referring to.

Now we know the DO is not actually at the Eye so there's no instance of anyone getting between the DO and the Dragon here, but still.

People often forget that Perrin also warned Rand that there was a party of darkfriends approaching.

What are they doing with this "if you're not the Dragon you'll die" thing. Obviously as a book reader I know it's misdirection and upping the stakes but also as a book reader it just sounds silly.

I finally got to my E6 rewatch. It holds up better when my mind isn't spending every second comparing to the books. It still leaves me with a few head scratchers, though.

44 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Problem with that is if Mat was the Dragon and didn't go then he could be dooming the world.  You would think if he cared about his sisters that he wouldn't run the risk of being the Dragon and running off.

The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.

I think the Ways could be done true to book. There are other considerations, but I think they're definitely doable.

I do wonder if the DR mystery will backfire more because they teased other alternatives rather than just playing it straight.

I'm not predicting it will. But I wonder occasionally.

3 hours ago, TheMountain said:

There's a real dearth of critical analyses that take into account the differences with the books. Most of the reviews that even mention the books are along the lines of "the show is more diverse, inclusive, and does away with the gender essentialism of the books, therefore it is objectively better in every way."

 

I also noticed that every time there is a controversial change in an episode, ScreenRant comes out with an article saying, "Here's Why That Change Was Incredible and Exactly the Right Choice!!!"

As I said with the Screenrant article saying the show is in a huge hole, Screenrant is just a clickbait tabloid.

Edit: I forgot which thread I was in

1 minute ago, dwn said:

When it comes to an adaptation, any changes that facillitate production or are obvious due to the different medium just don't bother me all that much--particularly if I can come up with a plausible reason behind the change in just a few seconds. Some examples:

 

Having a variety of fast-travel means works in a book, but is just confusing without a ton of exposition. This episode shows Moiraine using some kind of gateway ter'angreal, which superficially acts like the Waygate we see later on--obviously meant to introduce the concept of fast-travel in a clear and concise fashion, since it's something that comes up repeatedly throughout the story.

 

We see more of Logain to emphasise what happens to men who can channel, which gives added weight to Thom's warning, helps show what the Dragon Reborn means to the world, and foreshadows what awaits the Dragon Reborn in the long run.

 

Showing the Oath Rod here reinforces the idea of ter'angreal in general, as well as showing magically binding oaths, both of which (for a TV show audience) are important to set up early on. Otherwise the first time we actually see the Oath Rod is during the BA hunt.

 

Moving scenes from Caemlyn and Fal Dara to Tar Valon reduces one-off locations, which simplifies production and lets them spend more on an important place like Tar Valon.

 

The scenes in The Tower (including those between Siuan and Moiraine) are mostly reworked/relocated ideas from other books (New Spring and TGH), and lay important groundwork for Aes Sedai, Warders, and the various Tower factions and politics--all of which are critical to the overall story.

 

Leaving the horses at the Waygate was obviously done to reduce production cost.

 

Mat not entering the Ways is likely due to the actor leaving. Yes it's unfortunate, but these things happen. Should they merge TGH and TDR to some degree, it puts him in a good place to pick up his story later on.

Finally, while I agree that some scenes and edits are a bit clunky, these episodes are already near or over an hour long--which is basically giving us ~11 typical TV episodes this season. Sure it would have been better with more time in places, but that just wasn't practical.

 

Thus far, almost all the changes have been to: reduce cost and complexity; compress the story for a different medium; simplify the lore and worldbuilding for a different audience; and work around unforeseen hiccups in production. That seems reasonable to me.

I agree 100% with your post as I think these all have justifications. I'm not sure if the final payoff/execution works as well in the end on some parts of it, and that may come down to directing/writing/editing and not the actual idea changes in themselves.

13 hours ago, Kudzu said:

 

I could be remembering it wrong but I didn't think the Aes Sedai that swore to Rand were able to go against their oath's even though they wanted to. I'm sure there was some passage where they were trying to work out exactly how far they could push the oath, that there was some wriggle room, but that they were actually bound to core of it.

This would be because they believed in actually keeping the oaths they swore and thinking their sworn word important, plus belief in the theology of their world.

3 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

I may have misinterpreted your first post.   You were arguing that when giving an oath without the oath rod they could "mean it in the moment" but then change their minds?    I guess that could happen.  It still sounds a bit sketchy to me, but I'm not going to argue against it being possible.  

Yes. What I meant was the oath "to speak no word that isn't true" means that at the time they swear the oath they have to truly mean to keep it. They can't say the words if they are intending to break them.. But that doesn't bind them to keep it in the future if they actually have a change of heart. I know Jordan discussed this in interviews, and I even think it is commented on in the series, possibly ACOS, but I'm just going from memory. The First Oath applies in the moment to what they know/believe to be true at that time, but if their knowledge/beliefs change...

5 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Un, but wouldn't that then mean the other oaths could be broken just as easily.  "See, I didn't intend to ever make a weapon when I made the oath.  But then I had a change of heart."

No, because the other oaths on the rod are binding in themselves regardless of whether they have the oath to speak no word that is not true.

The first oath doesn't mean an Aes Sedai will keep her oath. It just requires that the Aes Sedai truly mean the oath at the time she makes it. She can't intend at that time to be duplicitous. But she can later have a change of heart and renege.

20 minutes ago, Windigo said:

LoTR movies were quite different from the books in many ways.   
From changing ages, Frodo from being in his 50's for most of the books,  to being much younger, Sam from an employee to a friend!  Many other changes to personalities, cutting and changing many of the story arcs, adding new ones, I think that so many have not read the Tolkien books ( or even ASoiaF) as often as they have series like WoT, so did not notice how many changed there were. 
I am an big re-reader, but while I re-read WoT, along with other series I enjoy every year, I only re-read ASoiaF before a new book came out, and Tolkien a dozen or so times. 

LoTR changes:  https://www.theonering.com/complete-list-of-film-changes/the-fellowship-of-the-ring/   
 

 

These "changes" are so nitpicky. Imagine if the show had Moiraine and Lan rescue Perrin and Egwene in the White Cloak camp like in the books, but maybe Nynaeve plays a larger role, or Moiraine stubs her toe and utters a curse. Or they shorten/simplify the rescue into a shorter or slightly different sequence in the rescue. A website like the above would list all that. But clearly any adaptation of that would hew more closely to the books than cutting it altogether and having Moiraine, Lan, and Nynaeve go in the completely opposite direction to be involved in an arc barely detailed in the books.

Now, I still was okay with what they did in episode four. Much of it was interesting and set things up. But this list of changes for Fellowship include a number of little details like "Gandalf bumped his head" and listing the pros and cons of that. I don't think a lot of the people feeling negative would be feeling negative if we still got the same plot points just adapted a little differently (like my White Cloak camp example above) I think many of them would be much happier. I don't think they'd be stewing about "Gandalf bumps his head" changes or needing text-to-screen literalism.