The Wheel of Time Will Be Adapted as a TV Series

[Werthead]

 

Interesting thought: we know now that Taim was originally meant to be Demandred and RJ changed his mind abruptly later on.

 

For the TV show, would people prefer:

 

1) Keeping Taim as Demandred and going with the LoC/ACoS depiction of Taim throughout, expose Taim as Demandred dramatically later on and just drop the whole Shara thing.

2) Go with the idea of Taim being a separate character and drop all the oddball references in LoC/ACoS that hinted he was a Forsaken.

3) Adapt the books as they are and just let the TV viewers get confused about it so book readers can explain it to them and feel superior later on.

 

There's probably quite a few issues that require judgement calls like this to be made.

 

 

 

They will probably eliminate or minimize much of the Eye of the World storyline since its so close to Lord of the Rings.

 

I think that's quite difficult because EotW is the entry point to the series and it worked in hooking people in (to the tune of almost 100 million book sales), so messing around with that approach may be inadvisable.

 

I think there are some ways of dealing with it. One thought is to show the Trolloc attack on Emond's Field (at least in flashback) and have the Myrddraal unmasked and Lan fights and drives him off. That unmasking of the Myrddraal I think ups the WTFness early on and also quickly negate their Nazgul-ness.

 

Another idea I had a while ago was not to take Tam and Rand back to their farm, keep them in Emond's Field to witness the Trolloc attack, and then have them cut off  in an alley or something and attacked by Narg (of course played by Academy Award Winner Daniel Day Lewis in a cameo), where Tam is injured. This has various benefits - like seeing the attack in-progress - and could save money by not having to build Rand and Tam's farmhouse only to burn it down five minutes later. The only major problem is why Tam would take his heron-marked sword with him (but you could add a line that Rand's been seeing the Myrddraal for a couple of days and Tam took it with them to town as a precaution).

 

OTOH, the way RJ does it in the books is more suspenseful and there's probably going to need to be a standing farmhouse set (to be redressed as required) to stand in for the several that Mat and Rand visit later on, so it wouldn't make much odds.

[Thrasymachus]

I say keep the Sharans, but foreshadow them a bit more clearly than the books do.  It may not involve much rewriting, as there are numerous places where they're mentioned and even a few of them seen, it can just be harder to catch it while reading about it, rather than seeing it portrayed on a screen.  Keep the suspicion around Taimandred, but make it more clear after it's debunked that Taim's anachronisms are affectations he picked up being trained by the real Demandred.

 

I have a feeling that the producers are going to want to keep more or less the same structure that RJ had, with the first three seasons being devoted to the first three books, for much the same reasons.  If the first season sucks and fails, they can cancel it there and still have a fairly "complete" story.  If it has moderate success they can keep going through the end of the Dragon Reborn, not pick it up after that, and still have a fairly "complete" story.  If it picks up enough viewers to keep going after that, then we'll start seeing some serious rejiggering of plots and characters, so they can wrap the whole thing up in 7 to 9 seasons.  It's pretty rare that any kind of fantasy/sci-fi series lasts that long, except the most popular, and I have a really hard time seeing anybody take it past ten seasons, no matter how popular it becomes, if only because they won't want to end up paying Friends-level of salaries for the main cast, on top of all the other expenses.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Thrasymachus

[szilard]

Interesting thought: we know now that Taim was originally meant to be Demandred and RJ changed his mind abruptly later on.

 

For the TV show, would people prefer:

 

1) Keeping Taim as Demandred and going with the LoC/ACoS depiction of Taim throughout, expose Taim as Demandred dramatically later on and just drop the whole Shara thing.

2) Go with the idea of Taim being a separate character and drop all the oddball references in LoC/ACoS that hinted he was a Forsaken.

3) Adapt the books as they are and just let the TV viewers get confused about it so book readers can explain it to them and feel superior later on.

 

There's probably quite a few issues that require judgement calls like this to be made.

 

  W, you basically exhibit what we, humans , call reasonable, rational, logical (my vocabulary ends here), but it looks like even you pre-plan too much in a way that is not really feasible right now.  Let's cross that bridge when we come to it.

 

1. It makes more sense. the whole Shara thing was crud anyway.

 

Create, read, update, and delete?

 

Second that, I believe it will work the best on screen and will also merge two characters. Merging characters will probably be necessary to a great extent in order to keep the cast remotely manageable, even though that's hard both practically and emotionally in a story this detailed and complex.

 

I prefer cutting to merging. (Do we really need Perrin?)

 

They will probably eliminate or minimize much of the Eye of the World storyline since its so close to Lord of the Rings.

 

That depends on the screenplay. They could do so much with Book 1. But starting with Book 2 the viewers will get an insane pace; the show needs a breakneck speed. (Or not?)

 

I think that's quite difficult because EotW is the entry point to the series and it worked in hooking people in (to the tune of almost 100 million book sales), so messing around with that approach may be inadvisable. I think there are some ways of dealing with it.

 

bolded: we do not live in the past; newcomers see WOT as an old (30th anniv. is in the corner), and very, very long series.

 

One way could be a very short season (6 epis), other one is a totally 'deranged' storyline.

[szilard]

I have a feeling that the producers are going to want to keep more or less the same structure that RJ had, with the first three seasons being devoted to the first three books, for much the same reasons.  If the first season sucks and fails, they can cancel it there and still have a fairly "complete" story.  If it has moderate success they can keep going through the end of the Dragon Reborn, not pick it up after that, and still have a fairly "complete" story.  If it picks up enough viewers to keep going after that, then we'll start seeing some serious rejiggering of plots and characters, so they can wrap the whole thing up in 7 to 9 seasons.  It's pretty rare that any kind of fantasy/sci-fi series lasts that long, except the most popular, and I have a really hard time seeing anybody take it past ten seasons, no matter how popular it becomes, if only because they won't want to end up paying Friends-level of salaries for the main cast, on top of all the other expenses.

 

Your plan sounds reasonable but it will not happen. After S3 they have to cut too many things.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

I think the author saw himself in Perrin or vice versa, so... yes, we really need Perrin. The three boys would all stay I think. Moiraine and probably the wonder girls. The dark one and some forsaken.

 

It's any of the other 2000+ who can go, or be relegated to CGI crowds.

 

Re it seeming too much like LotR I think that's more of a selling point for an adaptation than a negative.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Mrs. Cindy Gill

[szilard]

I think the author saw himself in Perrin or vice versa, so... yes, we really need Perrin.

 

By cutting him out they can fit the first four books into two longer (14-16 epis, net. 60 min) seasons.

 

 

Re it seeming too much like LotR I think that's more of a selling point for an adaptation than a negative.

 

That's the big question.

[Orderofolde]

I say keep the Sharans, but foreshadow them a bit more clearly than the books do.  It may not involve much rewriting, as there are numerous places where they're mentioned and even a few of them seen, it can just be harder to catch it while reading about it, rather than seeing it portrayed on a screen.  Keep the suspicion around Taimandred, but make it more clear after it's debunked that Taim's anachronisms are affectations he picked up being trained by the real Demandred.

 

I have a feeling that the producers are going to want to keep more or less the same structure that RJ had, with the first three seasons being devoted to the first three books, for much the same reasons.  If the first season sucks and fails, they can cancel it there and still have a fairly "complete" story.  If it has moderate success they can keep going through the end of the Dragon Reborn, not pick it up after that, and still have a fairly "complete" story.  If it picks up enough viewers to keep going after that, then we'll start seeing some serious rejiggering of plots and characters, so they can wrap the whole thing up in 7 to 9 seasons.  It's pretty rare that any kind of fantasy/sci-fi series lasts that long, except the most popular, and I have a really hard time seeing anybody take it past ten seasons, no matter how popular it becomes, if only because they won't want to end up paying Friends-level of salaries for the main cast, on top of all the other expenses.

They can be introduced by Noal when he reminisces about places he's seen.  He can narrate and the screen can show the various places and things he is mentioning for visual effect, or flashbacks with another actor playing a younger version of himself. 

[Rednalloc]

 

Re it seeming too much like LotR I think that's more of a selling point for an adaptation than a negative.

 

That's the big question.

 

 

 

I definitely believe LotR is much more of a selling point than a negative, there hasn't really been anything LotR-esque (by that I mean like the movies, not books) on TV yet. Game of Thrones has in setting, tone etc. virtually nothing in common with LotR in my opinion and SoT/Shannara didn't even try to reach that level. It's not like the Hobbit movies didn't perform at the box office the last couple of years, despite their obvious flaws. I believe there is a much bigger audience for a high-quality, truly epic and unapologetically uncynical/romantic* fantasy TV series than most people believe. But "high-quality" is the key word, whatever one might think about it mainstream TV watchers are extremely turned off by low production values, especially when it comes to fantasy/SF. 

 

You can't go into filming this series thinking "We are going to make a good fantasy series". You need to go into it thinking "We are going to create the most epic. high-quality, award-winning tv series ever made. Nobody is even going to care which genre it is because they are going to be too busy telling all their friends how awesome it is and if they don't start watching it too they are going to be lost at every dinner/party/lunch break for the foreseeable future." That is what Game of Thrones did and whatever one's opinion of that show it has worked.

 

*Romantic as in marked by the imaginative or emotional appeal of what is heroic, adventurous, remote, mysterious, or idealised (Merriam-Webster)

[szilard]

I definitely believe LotR is much more of a selling point than a negative, there hasn't really been anything LotR-esque (by that I mean like the movies, not books) on TV yet. Game of Thrones has in setting, tone etc. virtually nothing in common with LotR in my opinion and SoT/Shannara didn't even try to reach that level. It's not like the Hobbit movies didn't perform at the box office the last couple of years, despite their obvious flaws. I believe there is a much bigger audience for a high-quality, truly epic and unapologetically uncynical/romantic* fantasy TV series than most people believe. But "high-quality" is the key word, whatever one might think about it mainstream TV watchers are extremely turned off by low production values, especially when it comes to fantasy/SF. 

 

You can't go into filming this series thinking "We are going to make a good fantasy series". You need to go into it thinking "We are going to create the most epic. high-quality, award-winning tv series ever made. Nobody is even going to care which genre it is because they are going to be too busy telling all their friends how awesome it is and if they don't start watching it too they are going to be lost at every dinner/party/lunch break for the foreseeable future." That is what Game of Thrones did and whatever one's opinion of that show it has worked.

 

*Romantic as in marked by the imaginative or emotional appeal of what is heroic, adventurous, remote, mysterious, or idealised (Merriam-Webster)

 

1. I prefer thefreedictionary.com

 

2. As I've stated before, I see the tv series as a big ad (see Ubisoft and the new AC movie, which is not really a movie, it's a global ad). And we've seen in the last decades that books stay with us, tv series don't. The world moves on, and 5-6 years later nobody cares about these 'groundbreaking' tv series. The books, on the other hand, stay with the audience with much longer (2-3 decades at least.)

 

3. I fear for the 'John Carter, Valérian et Laureline etc' effect. I mean, when WOT will see the sunlight on tvs/movies screens, the audience will react in a negative way, because in the last decade alone many books/movies ripped from many things from WOT. And we cannot explain to them that hey, this was an original series back in the nineties...

 

4. The series needs a fan, a caring fan in seat of the main producer. You mentioned the Hobbit movies: the problem with these films was not the overdone (and weak) cgi, but their soulless state. Ofc, the arrogance of them was way over the top: I talked with an important cgi guy from Weta a few years back (we did an interview), and their whole attitude was disgusting ("the audience will not notice anything" etc) We can pour into $200 million into every season, but, without caring the end result will be poor.

 

5. I'm not interested in awards, I'm interested in new readers. Unfortunately, GOT despite being a real bestseller since the debut of the show, more and more people say that they not interested in the books, they will watch/re-watch only the series.

 

6. One more thing about the 'secretive' company. Producers always tell us that they have to build a hype (= awareness) way before the series/movie will be watched by the audience. They speak about min. three years, because you have to build your audience.  So they have to put things in motion sooner than later.

[dexterryu]

I think a lot of this discussion boils down to one thing: Quality.

 

If the show comes out and the adaptation is well done it will be a success. The main characters are likable and interesting. One of the things that drove the success of the books IMHO is that it had great foreshadowing and many mysteries that gave birth to tons of fan sites. If the show captures some of that then I am very optimistic. 

 

There is no doubt cuts will need to be made but to me they need to cut the more peripheral stuff while keeping the core of the story. There isn't a ton of that in the first 3 books (even the first 4). So cutting those down will be tough.

Edited January 13, 2017 by dexterryu

[Werthead]

The world moves on, and 5-6 years later nobody cares about these 'groundbreaking' tv series. The books, on the other hand, stay with the audience with much longer (2-3 decades at least.)

 

 

 

People are still excited about the new X-Files and Twin Peaks seasons and have picked up the old series to rewatch or watch for the first time. ST:TNG, a show which is 30 years old this year, still gets tons of viewers on repeats and Netflix (actually, so does the original and that's 51 years old). Far more people have watched The Wire in the 10 years since it finished than when it was on. So a really good, classic show will have quite a long lifespan.

 

TV shows that are failures won't be remembered for as long, of course. They're already talking about a new Dresden Files show ten years after the last one was a failure.

[Occams whiskey bottle]

 

The world moves on, and 5-6 years later nobody cares about these 'groundbreaking' tv series. The books, on the other hand, stay with the audience with much longer (2-3 decades at least.)

 

 

 

People are still excited about the new X-Files and Twin Peaks seasons and have picked up the old series to rewatch or watch for the first time. ST:TNG, a show which is 30 years old this year, still gets tons of viewers on repeats and Netflix (actually, so does the original and that's 51 years old). Far more people have watched The Wire in the 10 years since it finished than when it was on. So a really good, classic show will have quite a long lifespan.

 

TV shows that are failures won't be remembered for as long, of course. They're already talking about a new Dresden Files show ten years after the last one was a failure.

 

 

 

You forgot Firefly. More people will probably watch that show today on Netflix than when the show was actually broadcast.

[Graendals favourite]

Patience, p<tience, abd stull more patience. (I don't know what gets by the way) vut patience, abd vut in the greek way where v in an en an and a u is a i. I by the way still want penies, but guess production takes what it takes. Penises, penises, penises. one must make a point. Penises!

[Occams whiskey bottle]

Patience, p<tience, abd stull more patience. (I don't know what gets by the way) vut patience, abd vut in the greek way where v in an en an and a u is a i. I by the way still want penies, but guess production takes what it takes. Penises, penises, penises. one must make a point. Penises!

 

 

Dude, you drunk?

[Rednalloc]

Patience, p<tience, abd stull more patience. (I don't know what gets by the way) vut patience, abd vut in the greek way where v in an en an and a u is a i. I by the way still want penies, but guess production takes what it takes. Penises, penises, penises. one must make a point. Penises!

 

 

Best post of the thread! Couldn't agree more, 10/10

[szilard]

OFF

 

X-Files, Twin Peaks, ST:TNG, The Wire

 

 

Two things:

 

1. The population of the USA:

 

1990     248,709,873

2017     324,310,011 (est)

 

2. These shows are pure garbage. OK, we were young back then, so we watched (a few) episodes/seasons from them, but I just talked with pals (15-20 p, age 25-45) about X and Twin, and everybody agreed with my statement. And nobody talks about them; more and more people say that films and tv shows are unwatchable, or the market is oversaturated as hell ... I won't go into it.

 

ON

 

Dude, you drunk?

 

[Occams whiskey bottle]

 

Dude, you drunk?

 

 

What? You think that was a coherent post I was commenting on? 

[Graendals favourite]

Just training my crazy, but it's true, one should be patient. Could even call it a little poem ;) .

[szilard]

So, there’s only one topic left…

 

More/better cgi or more extras? What would you like more of? Or cgi extras?  

 

Extras are important, because 'armies'/'towns' look ridiculous with the same 20-30 people.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

Pete Jackson used a very good technique for cgi crowds and battles that would

work

fine

and cost less than many thousands of extras.

 

there aren't so very many visual effects from the text but that will have to change with medium. media. um idk.

 

how silly or awesome channeling looks could be a

make or break. shouldn't be expensive to represent but it has to be well done and exciting enough to watch that people will want to see it again.

[szilard]

Pete Jackson used a very good technique for cgi crowds and battles that would

work

fine

and cost less than many thousands of extras.

 

there aren't so very many visual effects from the text but that will have to change with medium. media. um idk.

 

how silly or awesome channeling looks could be a

make or break. shouldn't be expensive to represent but it has to be well done and exciting enough to watch that people will want to see it again.

 

MASSIVE is an 'industrial standard'. They use it in ads too.

 

That's why I mentioned Warcraft earlier. I thought the effects of the spells were quite good.

 

PJ's team (Weta) needs someone who constantly use a whip. And they should change their attitude too:

 

-we need a scene like that

-oh, it's nothing; give us 45 minutes

 

This is not quality. 

[Werthead]

2. These shows are pure garbage. OK, we were young back then, so we watched (a few) episodes/seasons from them, but I just talked with pals (15-20 p, age 25-45) about X and Twin, and everybody agreed with my statement. And nobody talks about them; more and more people say that films and tv shows are unwatchable, or the market is oversaturated as hell ... I won't go into it.

 

These shows were enormously popular back then and remain so now: Fox commissioned six new episodes of The X-Files and it was the most successful new TV drama on their network last year (although only one episode was arguably really good, the rest were meh). More will follow. Showtime has spent an absolutely insane amount of money on the new Twin Peaks, to the tune of many tens of millions of dollars and convincing David Lynch (who hasn't directed a live-action project in a decade) to direct the entire thing, and are already ramping up marketing four months out. It may turn out to be rubbish, but it's certainly not the case that no-one cares about them.

 

The market being oversaturated, I agree. Personally I'd like to see a moratorium on all new TV shows for five years to give everyone a chance to catch up on what they want to see before unloading new stuff. But in terms of quality, TV is probably the best it's ever been, and that's backed up by the enormous viewing figures and critical reception across the board.

 

The market has absolutely never been as favourable for a Wheel of Time TV show right now. If it doesn't get made now, and if as is possible we see a decline or crash in a few years, the chances of it ever being made disappear.

[szilard]

The market being oversaturated, I agree. Personally I'd like to see a moratorium on all new TV shows for five years to give everyone a chance to catch up on what they want to see before unloading new stuff. But in terms of quality, TV is probably the best it's ever been, and that's backed up by the enormous viewing figures and critical reception across the board.

 

This is true regarding movies too. But, you know, I heard this phrase "TV is probably the best it's ever been" so many times...

 

The market has absolutely never been as favourable for a Wheel of Time TV show right now. If it doesn't get made now, and if as is possible we see a decline or crash in a few years, the chances of it ever being made disappear.

 

They need min 2 years to prepare everything to start the shooting. And we hear nothing about the buyer, the producers, the casting process etc

Edited January 28, 2017 by szilard

[Occams whiskey bottle]

 

The market being oversaturated, I agree. Personally I'd like to see a moratorium on all new TV shows for five years to give everyone a chance to catch up on what they want to see before unloading new stuff. But in terms of quality, TV is probably the best it's ever been, and that's backed up by the enormous viewing figures and critical reception across the board.

 

This is true regarding movies too. But, you know, I heard this phrase "TV is probably the best it's ever been" so many times...

 

The market has absolutely never been as favourable for a Wheel of Time TV show right now. If it doesn't get made now, and if as is possible we see a decline or crash in a few years, the chances of it ever being made disappear.

 

They need min 2 years to prepare everything to start the shooting. And we hear nothing about the buyer, the producers, the casting process etc

 

 

 

The reason that TV is reaching a pinnacle is because of the streaming services and DVR’s. They are now able to tell longer much more complex stories than ever now. Movies aren’t even able to tell these kinds of in-depth stories. In the movies you for the most part have to decide if you want character development or action, but you really don’t have time in a 2+ hour movie to do both. Some can pull it off, but most of the time they just pick sides. 

 

I am worried that the market for these types of shows will be drying up by the time they begin work on it, and because of the saturation point they won’t have the funds to give the show justice. The series really is cursed in a number of ways. Had RJ lived and made better decisions with the rights we may be watching the Wheel of Time on HBO now instead of Game of Thrones...

[Pandemonium]

 

2. These shows are pure garbage. OK, we were young back then, so we watched (a few) episodes/seasons from them, but I just talked with pals (15-20 p, age 25-45) about X and Twin, and everybody agreed with my statement. And nobody talks about them; more and more people say that films and tv shows are unwatchable, or the market is oversaturated as hell ... I won't go into it.

 

These shows were enormously popular back then and remain so now: Fox commissioned six new episodes of The X-Files and it was the most successful new TV drama on their network last year (although only one episode was arguably really good, the rest were meh). More will follow. Showtime has spent an absolutely insane amount of money on the new Twin Peaks, to the tune of many tens of millions of dollars and convincing David Lynch (who hasn't directed a live-action project in a decade) to direct the entire thing, and are already ramping up marketing four months out. It may turn out to be rubbish, but it's certainly not the case that no-one cares about them.

 

The market being oversaturated, I agree. Personally I'd like to see a moratorium on all new TV shows for five years to give everyone a chance to catch up on what they want to see before unloading new stuff. But in terms of quality, TV is probably the best it's ever been, and that's backed up by the enormous viewing figures and critical reception across the board.

 

The market has absolutely never been as favourable for a Wheel of Time TV show right now. If it doesn't get made now, and if as is possible we see a decline or crash in a few years, the chances of it ever being made disappear.

 

Nice post and i especially agree about too much TV.  There is so much TV now that I don't watch any of it other a couple shows.  Don't want to waste my life away watching TV.   I'll get HBO Go once a year to watch Game of Thrones but other than than there is too much content.  There will be a content bursting bubble eventually, and WoT is probably going to be on the wrong side of this bubble.  I hope Apple or Amazon picks up WoT and throws a huge budget at it. But pretty much every project outside the WoT books hasn't fared very well. 

Hopefully there will be an appetite for epic fantasy TV after Game of Thrones ends, but we will see.