Is Sammal still dead?

[grump]

the DO has brought back at least 4 others? Do you think maybe Big S is now lurking around the kids in a new body?

[Ararana]

I was under the impression that Mashadar consumed not only the body but the sole as well.

 

I could be wrong though.

[Guest Barmacral]

Yes, I believe he is dead, and will stay dead. Why? Because RJ said so. Or so I hear, perhaps somebody could link that quote where he did?

[Hero of Satsuma]

Sammael is toast

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=19

[Bob T Dwarf]

That quote merely confirms that Mashadar killed him. It neither says nor implies anything about him staying dead.

[Tenshin_Xo]

Seeing as how Mashadar kills by consuming the soul of what it touches I doubt he coule be revived ala the 'gars or cyndane, seeing as how Sammael's soul is now Mashadar fodder.

[Safia al-Maaz]

Yes. And actually, I think the quote is pretty direct. "Sammael is toast" is pretty straight forward.

[Hannah Banana]

I was under the impression that Mashadar consumed not only the body but the sole as well.

 

I could be wrong though.

 

No' date=' I think you're right about the soles. Mashadar is a huge foot fetisher. :twisted: [/color']

[Luckers]

On the issue of mashadar consuming souls it should be noted that no where in the books does it say that Mashadar can do this.

 

That being said, i too believe that Mashadar consumes souls, and think it is implied in the way it was born, in the deaths of the people of Aridhol, that it is a being created from what was left of their souls, in the same manner that Machin Shin is seemingly made of souls. But as i said there is no real evidence for this....

 

On the issue of Sammael--even if Mashadar does not consume souls i do not believe he is back yet. For starters it took many months for the 'gars and Moridin to reapear (Likely Cyndane too, though we dont in truth know when she died). no where near that sort of time has passed since Sammael's death.

 

Personally i dont think we are going to see Sammael again, one way or another. There is too little time.

[Cybertrolloc]

QotW from RJ implies that resurrection time can be short, we've only seen it take months or year+ with the returned Forsaken.

 

Anyway, RJ has also said Sammael is not coming back in no uncertain terms. See a DragonCon Q&A transcript or his blog here I guess.

[Luckers]

Could you find the quote... its not that i doubt you or anything, i'd just like to have it around.

[Tenshin_Xo]

Luckers: This is a quote from TEotW, Ch 19.

 

"Mordeth alone was not consumed by Mashadar, but he was snared by it, ... If ever he convinces someone to accompany him to the walls, to the boundary of Mashadar's power, he will be able to consume the soul of that person."

 

 

Seeing as how Mordeth and Fain have merged and he can now spawn a mini-mashadar I'd say that there is a definate connection between Mordeth and Mashadar. So unless you think Mordeth had the ability to consume a soul before he was imprisoned by Mashadar it is an ability he must have inherited from Mashadar.

 

Also Mashadar kills with just a touch, it doesn't need or use the mouths the mini-mashadar used. How else would you propose it kills in this way if not by consuming the soul.

 

To summarize, no it does not explicitly say Mashadar consumes souls, but it is directly implied that it does.

[Tithen]

I seriously wonder when Rand is going to realize

that the DO realy does bring back the dead

forsaken.

[Guest Abaddon]

lanfear is gonna probably try and find him again

[Cybertrolloc]

Could you find the quote... its not that i doubt you or anything' date=' i'd just like to have it around.[/quote']

Not today :( No hits for Sammael on the blog, so that means hunting through the train-wreck that is the wotmania forum.

 

I'll give reasonable assurance that RJ said this at some time and it was probably dragon-con '05. Other than that, can't be of much help now.

[shwang]

maybe when sammael was consumed, part of him is in Fain now because Fain is part Mordeth, and then Fain sent all those Trollocs after Rand

[Tenshin_Xo]

Fain/Mordeth left Shadar Logoth way before Sammael bit it there.

[Luckers]

Seeing as how Mordeth and Fain have merged and he can now spawn a mini-mashadar I'd say that there is a definate connection between Mordeth and Mashadar. So unless you think Mordeth had the ability to consume a soul before he was imprisoned by Mashadar it is an ability he must have inherited from Mashadar.

 

There is no indication that Fain can create a new Mashadar. We have never seen this displayed by him. Moreover whilst Mashadar was a by-product of the hate Mordeth fostered, and Mordeth was the only one who managed to retain a sense of himself in the face of that we have no indication of any form of causatative link between the two currently. Certainly given that Fain was not destroyed when Shadar Logoth was we can suggest that there is no such link.

 

Finally that Mordeth attained the ability to consume a soul is not nessasarily indicative that Mashadar can. Since 1) Mordeth caused Mashadars creation and 2) Mashadar and Mordeth remained seperate, including the growth of seperate powers and abilities, then your statement reguarding the 'inheritence' of mordeths abilities to consume souls is unsubstantiated.

 

Also Mashadar kills with just a touch, it doesn't need or use the mouths the mini-mashadar used. How else would you propose it kills in this way if not by consuming the soul.

 

Well since i DO believe that it DOES consume souls, im not sure why this is directed at me. However that being said it also consumes flesh which proves that it can have a physical effect, and could very easily be killing in the more normal physiological way. Whilst I, and apparently you also, believe that it is the consumption of the soul, we simply have no evidence of such, and that needs to be kept in mind.

 

Finally, what is this mini-mashadar you are talking about? With its mouths? If you are talking about the incident in the Lord of Chaos, that was a Bubble of Evil, not the work of Fain. It was purerly physical and completely unrelated to Mashadar.

[grump]

Rand Runs into a guy in Far Madding. He fits the discription of Sammel except for the Height. I had thought that It was Moridin in discuise since he made Rand ill, but any of the Forsaken might be able to channel as someone was at that time in Far Madding. To a normal channler the power is just not there

[RobertAlexWillis]

I had thought that It was Moridin in discuise since he made Rand ill, but any of the Forsaken might be able to channel as someone was at that time in Far Madding.

 

None of the Forsaken could channel in Far Madding, unless he/she had a well, like Nynaeve or Cadsuane.

[grump]

Not even the true power which as I understand has different rules?

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm not willing to say 100 percent for sure that the True Power could not be used there ... but if it could, why wouldn't Moridin have swooped in and captured Rand himself while he was in Far Madding, or at least taken the access keys to the Choedan Kal? Its clear he wanted them, and that he knew Rand had them there. If he could use the True Power, in a place where Rand had only his sword, it would have been childs play.

 

Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that Shaidar Haran didn't do just that ... except that I think Shaidar Haran uses the True Power in an undiluted form, and so may not have been able to function in a stedding ...

 

Not only that, but only people who are able to channel the One Power are able to use the True Power. That indicates that there is some similarity in how they are accessed. So, something that completely blocks the ability to channel would most likely block the True Power, as well as the One Power.

[grump]

It seems to me that when Roshaid is remembering he said that Taim told them to kill Rand then Demandred told them too also Was Moridin listed there too? Moridin is playing for both teams at this point. but last I heard he ordered the Forsaken to get Mat and Perrin and leave Rand alone

[grump]

Oh yes and remember somebody sent Slayer and just missed them And he couldnt identify which Forsaken it was that sent him. Shadar Harin is powerful enough to punish the Chosen, but he also has his own personal agenda as well as being the DO s enforcer

[RobertAlexWillis]

It seems to me that when Roshaid is remembering he said that Taim told them to kill Rand then Demandred told them too also Was Moridin listed there too?

 

In Winter's Heart chapter 22, Kisman's final POV, Kisman thinks to himself how Taim and Demandred both separately ordered him to kill Rand, but the Moridin said to kill him if they must, but secure his possessions at all costs.

 

Moridin did not want Rand to cleanse the taint, by using the Choedan Kal. I would think that if he could have used the True Power to get them himself, in a place where Rand could not channel, he would have done so. He hasn't been afraid to get personally involved before.

 

Shadar Harin is powerful enough to punish the Chosen, but he also has his own personal agenda as well as being the DO s enforcer

 

I'm not sure exactly what that has to do with what were talking about .... and even so, I don't think its accurate. There has been no indication that Shaidar Haran is anything but the Dark One's personal material puppet. That being the case, he would have the greatest motivation to take the Choedan Kal from Rand, to prevent the cleansing. All the higher-ups in the Shadow knew he was there.

 

To be completely honest, the whole episode in Far Madding is baffling to me, as I've said in other threads. I don't think it was a good idea for Rand to go there, and I think the Shadow missed its best opportunity to crush him, whether they could use the True Power or not. If the COULD use the True Power there, then its an even BIGGER blunder.