For the 20kth time, Was Destroying The Choden Kal a Sound Decision?

[jack of shadows]

i find it hard to believe that out of the whole world the pattern would choose perrin

to act as a failsafe,in the same period of time that would take perrin to figure out

how to take rand out,rand could probably have destroyed the world not once but

50 times!

the pattern did watch rand on top of dragonmount trembling,and breathed a huge

sigh of relief when rand won his inner battle and walked away.

[threadnecromancer]

I suppose the Pattern had a lot of failsafes built in, though I'm not sure about Perrin.

 

The main fail safes were the Borderlander army and the Dragonslayer.

[jack of shadows]

the borderland armies were irrelevant to rand's crisis on top of dragonmount,

when rand finally decided to meet them he was already in control(of himself and the situation)

although,the notion of four rulers standing in a row and hitting another ruler to measure his

restraint beggars belief,i mean,who could device something so stupid?

incidentally,who is this dragonslayer?

[threadnecromancer]

Unless I misrecall the Borderlanders were very relevant, didn't Rand basically say that pre VoG he wouldn't have passed their test?

 

As to the Dragonslayer he is: 'Bao the Wyld, He Who is Owned by the Land, the Dragonslayer. You may once have known him by the name he scorned, Barid Bel.

[mbuehner]

I think this all comes back to the varying degrees of victory/defeat. The only true victory for the DO is to jerk Rand around enough to unmake creation, specifically with the CK (as far as we know, or at least in this age). The Borderlanders etc might have been failsafes of lesser outcomes such as Rand just being a total prick. Perhaps there is some failsafe to keep him from confronting the DO in the LB without integrating souls and getting his act together- but that has nothing to do with saving creation. One would suppose its the patterns most expedient way to hurry along the next turning of the wheel.

[mb]

I do not recall Rand considering to destroy the world at any point in his Dragonmount experience; nor at any time in the series.

as far as I recall, Rand at most risked destroying the world; never considered.

 

though if Rand did consider at Dragonmount, the only characters that could have reached him at that time seemed to be these::

-Perrin

-the wolves

-Tar Valon residents

-residents of the surrounding villages/farms

 

Borderlanders & Demandred, both seemed to be miles away.  the Borderlander armies were at Far Madding; Demandred, probably at Shara.

[Sabio]

Rand was getting ready to destroy the world. Then had his we are given second chances to do better thought.

[mb]

Rand was getting ready to destroy the world. Then had his we are given second chances to do better thought.

could you provide an exact quote?

[jack of shadows]

oh he considered it,"rand raised his arms high,a conduit of power and energy.

an incarnation of death and destruction.he would end it.end it all and let men 

rest,finally,from their suffering.stop them from having to live over and over again."

[mb]

the second chances thought seemed to be Lews Therin's, not Rand's.  closest thought of Rand in the scene seems to be "we get to love again"

[DemandredFO]

pre-VOG Rand would've failed the borderlander test by True Power balefiring them all. That failsafe doesn't seem to work

[Sabio]

Exactly Rand thought he was going to be giving  the world mercy by destroying everything. 

[mbuehner]

the second chances thought seemed to be Lews Therin's, not Rand's.  closest thought of Rand in the scene seems to be "we get to love again"

 

 Rand raised his arms high,a conduit of power and energy.  Not 'Rand's arms were raised' or 'LTT raised Rand's arms'. Otherwise Rand was just chillin on Dragonmount futzing around with the CK for some reason while LTT worked out his personal issues.

 

This is a huge part of the story, really the climax of Rand's arc.

[mb]

several paragraphs later::

 

Maybe ... Lews Therin said, shockingly lucid, not a hint of madness to him. He spoke softly, reverently. Why? Could it be ... Maybe it's so that we can have a second chance.

It seems doubtful to me of Rand stopping at that time without Lews Therin interrupting.

[mbuehner]

several paragraphs later::

 

Maybe ... Lews Therin said, shockingly lucid, not a hint of madness to him. He spoke softly, reverently. Why? Could it be ... Maybe it's so that we can have a second chance.

It seems doubtful to me of Rand stopping at that time without Lews Therin interrupting.

 

Right, this was the midst of integrating all the 'Dragon voices' into one.

 

Maybe if Rand tried to go through with destroying creation, LTT was his failsafe and would have seized control. Then you have an actually insane Dragon running around for the Last Battle with a Rand voice in his head.

 

I would read that book.

[art336]

 

the second chances thought seemed to be Lews Therin's, not Rand's.  closest thought of Rand in the scene seems to be "we get to love again"

 

 Rand raised his arms high,a conduit of power and energy.  Not 'Rand's arms were raised' or 'LTT raised Rand's arms'. Otherwise Rand was just chillin on Dragonmount futzing around with the CK for some reason while LTT worked out his personal issues.

 

This is a huge part of the story, really the climax of Rand's arc.

 

In the entire series LTT NEVER physically manipulates Rand. As far as I can recall, the only time he ever tried was in the manor house of Lord Algarin in Knife of Dreams, when LTT teaches Rand how to create Deathgates, Blossoms of Fire, and Arrows of Fire. And I quote:

"my hands, Lews Therin panted. "Why can't I move my hands? I need to raise my hands!" (kindle location 7209 of 13929

 

"My hands! the madman howled, " My hands!" (kindle location 7228 of 13929)

 

Lews Therin does, on one occasion, attempt to physically manipulate the body he shares with Rand, but this seems to be an impossibility. Perhaps there is a way, but it has never been written of or hinted at, so according to Occam's Razor, Lews Therin Telamon may not "possess" Rand al Thor physically.

[mbuehner]

 

 

the second chances thought seemed to be Lews Therin's, not Rand's.  closest thought of Rand in the scene seems to be "we get to love again"

 

 Rand raised his arms high,a conduit of power and energy.  Not 'Rand's arms were raised' or 'LTT raised Rand's arms'. Otherwise Rand was just chillin on Dragonmount futzing around with the CK for some reason while LTT worked out his personal issues.

 

This is a huge part of the story, really the climax of Rand's arc.

 

In the entire series LTT NEVER physically manipulates Rand. As far as I can recall, the only time he ever tried was in the manor house of Lord Algarin in Knife of Dreams, when LTT teaches Rand how to create Deathgates, Blossoms of Fire, and Arrows of Fire. And I quote:

"my hands, Lews Therin panted. "Why can't I move my hands? I need to raise my hands!" (kindle location 7209 of 13929

 

"My hands! the madman howled, " My hands!" (kindle location 7228 of 13929)

 

Lews Therin does, on one occasion, attempt to physically manipulate the body he shares with Rand, but this seems to be an impossibility. Perhaps there is a way, but it has never been written of or hinted at, so according to Occam's Razor, Lews Therin Telamon may not "possess" Rand al Thor physically.

 

 

We agree in principle, but to play devils advocate, didnt Moraine mention in one of her visions the rings Rand turning up with Lanfear calling himself LTT?

[Sabio]

Yes but for all we know she might of used compulsion on him had she taken Rand away.

[wotfan4472]

No, the implication is that Lanfear would have taken Rand to Shayol Ghul. There, the DO may have reversed what was going on here. Rand a sometimes voice in his head. But I agree. Lanfear would have compelled him, since LTT would still react badly to seeing her.

[rand4747]

Im still of the opinion Lews Therin was not a seperate "being" inside of Rand, Rand in his madness created Lews Therin from the memories he has. On dragonmount is when he pushed that madness away and accepted the memories as his own, (along with all the other ones from earlier lives).
That thing of Lanfear taking Rand away to shayol ghul, probably through torture she will gradually turn him to her side, rather than actually turning him to the shadow with the 13 or compulsion, and probably combined with his madness he became "lews therin". In all reality he is still Rand and just completely insane. Who knows whether she would get him to swear to the shadow or whether they go their own way and try and take over the world themselves as she wanted though.