[Standard] The Matrix Reloaded - Game Over

[dicetosser1]

ok here goes

 

I pmd Nolder regarding my concerns on this.

 

I have multiple concerns regarding the use of the Alt account. some on a Site level some on Game level.

 

Site level

 

DM does not allow you to have 2 accounts. Things like the Xthrax situation can happen when that happens. Pizzas PIZZAGUY account is still active   as evidenced by the fact he sen Nol an pm from it to show his identity. So thats one concern.

 

 

On a GAME level  

 

1 Alt accounts arnt allowed on DM. For an ALTS GAME the mod has to get permission to use the alts. Traditionally you see very few alt games because of bad experiences as i understand it and it was generally held that only DPR got to do them. Til Nyn :D

 

2 When they ARE used its an ENTIRE GAME. EVERYONE is posting under the Alts not just ONE person.  That way no one person gets an advantage

 

 

Here we have one person using it. It was   imo   made pretty obvious early that this was a person we did know but that they did not want us using META to read them. This strikes me as an unfair advantage for that person because when I, or Cory, for eg play some people   not all but some    DO use meta to help get reads. The way this was presented of "yes you DO know me but im not telling you who I am so you cant use meta" seemed purposely set up to gain an advantage.

 

Yes you can argue that a new person fits in this boat but a new person will not have experience with us. even if they bone up they will know what has been done but wont have experienced it. This comes accross in their posting.

 

3     I worried that someone in the game knew who he was. I figured out who Nomi was from a post he made and a later post from Sooh made me think she knew it was him but i did not know when she found out that info. For all I knew it could have been after Pizza died.  A post in the DT that Sooh invited him to play changes that thinking. I read that and I get that Sooh knew who Nomi was from the start. I may be wrong. But thats how it reads.

 

This then gives Sooh game information that is not role specifc and that noone else in the game has access to. This is definetly unfair. There is some info   like who the mafia team is who the masons are etc that SOME people know at the beginning of a game but that info is role specific.

 

In this case Sooh knowing who Nomi is under the alt when noone else does gives her an advantage that noone else in the game has.  That makes the game unfair.

 

I will say that Nolder was unaware of whether Sooh knew or not when i pmd him

[Clovdyx]

Thoughts and stuff.

[seph]

stuff and junk.

i understand where dice is coming from, but in the situation pizza was just trying to come back into the community.
pizza is a good guy. 
and most importantly pizza is tasty. not that pizza, but pizza. 

*stop looking at me like that*

[Nolder]

  On 11/12/2015 at 5:28 AM, dicetosser1 said:

I have multiple concerns regarding the use of the Alt account. some on a Site level some on Game level.

Let me start here because to my knowledge Nomi does not have an alt account per sey.

Nomi had an account and for personal reasons decided to change his identity via a new account.

I'm not an admin but Nomi told me he no longer uses his other account and that was good enough for me.

I don't mean to call other people out but if merely having a previous account is to be considered a crime then to my knowledge at least one other person in this game would be guilty of it.

 

  On 11/12/2015 at 5:28 AM, dicetosser1 said:

Pizzas PIZZAGUY account is still active   as evidenced by the fact he sen Nol an pm from it to show his identity. So thats one concern.

Again I'm not an admin and I cannot verify the truth of the situation but in my opinion Nomi only signed in to his other account because of the ongoing argument in the game. He wanted me to know what the other account was so that I would know he wasn't lying about not using it. If he said he only signed on to it to send me a PM the one time then I have no reason to doubt that's the truth.

 

However, and I said this to Verbal as well, couldn't the old account just be banned? I mean if the issue is just that it exists and Nomi is over here saying he doesn't want it nor would he it could just have been "locked" without so much fighting couldn't it have? Maybe this could still be a solution although I kind of doubt it. The point was that Nomi wanted to start fresh and now that his previous identity was forced into the open it defeats the purpose of having a new account anyway. I hope he comes back since he seemed like a cool guy who was very invested in playing mafia but I wouldn't exactly blame him if he didn't.

 

 

  On 11/12/2015 at 5:28 AM, dicetosser1 said:

1 Alt accounts arnt allowed on DM. For an ALTS GAME the mod has to get permission to use the alts. Traditionally you see very few alt games because of bad experiences as i understand it and it was generally held that only DPR got to do them. Til Nyn :D

 

2 When they ARE used its an ENTIRE GAME. EVERYONE is posting under the Alts not just ONE person.  That way no one person gets an advantage

 

 

Here we have one person using it. It was   imo   made pretty obvious early that this was a person we did know but that they did not want us using META to read them. This strikes me as an unfair advantage for that person because when I, or Cory, for eg play some people   not all but some    DO use meta to help get reads. The way this was presented of "yes you DO know me but im not telling you who I am so you cant use meta" seemed purposely set up to gain an advantage.

Now this is where my knowledge on the matter is lacking because I couldn't pay attention to the in game banter. Did Nomi ever say or have an attitude of "I'm not telling you who I am so you can't meta read me"? If so then I'd say it's maybe a bit fairer to doubt his motivations in this case but if he didn't then this would just be a projection of your frustration with the situation Dice.

 

  On 11/12/2015 at 5:28 AM, dicetosser1 said:

Yes you can argue that a new person fits in this boat but a new person will not have experience with us. even if they bone up they will know what has been done but wont have experienced it. This comes accross in their posting.

I did make that argument and I will make it again.

 

A new player could, in theory, read all of our old games and have clear and good meta reads on players without ever having played with them before. Another example of this would be players mixing from other sites like when Cory, Tom, etc came here to play. The had meta on each other but no one here had meta on them. Was this unfair? Ehhhhhhhhhhhh mmmaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe? I don't put much stock into meta as a player so I don't see this as a big deal besides the question arises "what do we do about this?" I mean we could just say Cory you're not allowed to play with Tom until we've all played with you individually but that is so far into micromanaging peoples experiences it borders on ridiculous and I doubt very many people would abide by that. They would laugh and say DM mafia isn't worth my time I'll just go play somewhere else where people want to have fun and aren't so concerned about the unfairness of one game where meta doesn't rule.

 

Because that's what it is. One game. Once you've played a game with someone you have your meta. But instead of letting it go for one game and saying ok NEXT game I will have a meta read on Nomi it wasn't good enough. And that's what I think sucks because it was just one game but we probably lost a player over it.

 

  On 11/12/2015 at 5:28 AM, dicetosser1 said:

3     I worried that someone in the game knew who he was. I figured out who Nomi was from a post he made and a later post from Sooh made me think she knew it was him but i did not know when she found out that info. For all I knew it could have been after Pizza died.  A post in the DT that Sooh invited him to play changes that thinking. I read that and I get that Sooh knew who Nomi was from the start. I may be wrong. But thats how it reads.

 

This then gives Sooh game information that is not role specifc and that noone else in the game has access to. This is definetly unfair. There is some info   like who the mafia team is who the masons are etc that SOME people know at the beginning of a game but that info is role specific.

 

In this case Sooh knowing who Nomi is under the alt when noone else does gives her an advantage that noone else in the game has.  That makes the game unfair.

 

I will say that Nolder was unaware of whether Sooh knew or not when i pmd him

I'll grant you this. I didn't know the situation regarding Sooh and Nomi at the time this issue cropped up let alone before the game started.

After I became aware my choice was to either modkill or replace one of Sooh/Nomi or perhaps both in the middle of the game.

I figured it would be more beneficial to the game to let it go and has it out afterwards. If anyone feels cheated all I can say is that it seemed to me to be the better decision to maybe compromise the game in this tiny way of meta than to have to replace or kill two game slots for something that no one can prove is even beneficial. All we can say is it was something other players didn't have. So that was why I made that decision and if anyone thinks it was the wrong one I can accept that and respect it.

[Clovdyx]

Negative thoughts and stuff.

[seph]

i hope pizza comes back. i just am coming back myself after a break.
and he is fun to play mafia with.

[seph]

  On 11/12/2015 at 5:57 AM, Clovdyx said:

Negative thoughts and stuff.

clov, no negative thoughts.... that leads down a lonely road.

like this clov

[Clovdyx]

I've said my piece.

[Andrej]

  On 11/12/2015 at 6:04 AM, Clovdyx said:

I've said my piece.

Get it?

 

PIECE???

 

PIZZA?????

[Sili Quirrels]

big drama over a simple alt. get thick skin and profit.

[Lenlo]

I dont much care about the whole thing myself. He was good and I would like to play with him more. Dont really care about meta much personally.

[Sooh]

I don't see how my having meta on him is any different than Cory and Clov having meta on Rack tbh. 

 

Doesn't matter now anyway. It's done. 

[BFG]

  On 11/12/2015 at 5:57 AM, Clovdyx said:

Negative thoughts and stuff.

Disapproving stare

[BFG]

Thanks for modding Nolder!

 

And thanks for subbing in RTE!!!

[Sili Quirrels]

i feel bad for pizza. he tries very hard but he always says he feels like an outsider.

 

look, let me explain something about werewolf.

 

yes, meta is a useful tool. it's useful in the sense it narrows down what to look for. it however does not break the game if you don't know it.

[seph]

i wish i had a like button on dm for lenlo, and sili's last post.

[Clovdyx]

  On 11/12/2015 at 6:26 AM, BFG said:

Thanks for modding Nolder!

 

And thanks for subbing in RTE!!!

 

This x 1000.

[Thane Vakarian]

Mental note: get reads list town to wolf, inverse, lynch from top....

 

*hangs head in shame*

 

you guys were good, well done.

 

i feel like i defended the entire wolf team from being lynched... *frustrated*

[alannalynn]

  On 11/12/2015 at 5:57 AM, seph said:

i hope pizza comes back. i just am coming back myself after a break.

and he is fun to play mafia with.

  On 11/12/2015 at 5:50 AM, seph said:

stuff and junk.

 

i understand where dice is coming from, but in the situation pizza was just trying to come back into the community.

pizza is a good guy. 

and most importantly pizza is tasty. not that pizza, but pizza. 

 

*stop looking at me like that*

  On 11/12/2015 at 6:24 AM, Lenlo said:

I dont much care about the whole thing myself. He was good and I would like to play with him more. Dont really care about meta much personally.

  On 11/12/2015 at 6:31 AM, Sili Quirrels said:

i feel bad for pizza. he tries very hard but he always says he feels like an outsider.

 

look, let me explain something about werewolf.

 

yes, meta is a useful tool. it's useful in the sense it narrows down what to look for. it however does not break the game if you don't know it.

 

Dice, I really didn't want to get involved in this directly, but.

 

Pizza is 100% welcome here to play with us and most of us would be glad to have him back. I don't understand your attitude Dice. Pizza felt unwelcome on his original account due to an incident in a previous game. He came BACK to play with us under a different name so that those negative things wouldn't be carried over into the game. You dragged him through the mud anyways because he wouldn't be upfront about who he was even though he was playing a really good game. Now, you've given him a SECOND bad experience and he doesn't feel welcome again despite all the evidence to the contrary.

 

How is that fair to him, who gave DM mafia a second chance? I really thought this was an inclusive community where we welcome anyone to come play with us and try to keep them around to play some more games, especially if they're good players and can increase our own experience in the game? Where did that community go?

 

And BESIDES putting Pizza/Nomi in a tough spot, by hounding him about his identity, you've put Sooh in an awkward position too, and that's unfair to her as well. The truth of the matter is that you WON the game and have no say in this at all. I just find it ridiculous that we're having this problem at all, honestly.

[dicetosser1]

I have no right laine? the Mod asked anyone who had a concern to pm him  i did. I was then told a couple of pages back to speak out if i wanted to. So I did

 

I will say my issue is NOT with PIZZA the Person AT ALL!!!!  Hes more then welcome to play as much as he likes. Thats not my issue

[alannalynn]

  On 11/12/2015 at 8:18 AM, dicetosser1 said:

I have no right laine? the Mod asked anyone who had a concern to pm him  i did. I was then told a couple of pages back to speak out if i wanted to. So I did

 

I will say my issue is NOT with PIZZA the Person AT ALL!!!!  Hes more then welcome to play as much as he likes. Thats not my issue

Yeah and you also said you had more of a problem after reading the DT. I don't think it's a personal problem at all but the atmosphere is definitely negative surrounding this and that's not an environment people, in general, want to play in, which is why I'm annoyed. Dragging back out here on thread is like throwing more fuel on dying flames because everyone seems to be pretty at ease with this but you.

 

I feel like your whole argument is meta, when in actuality it would be like me going and playing on a new site where I know a few people. Or me going to play on a site that I've extensively researched the meta of all the players. Or even me registering an account on, for example, MU, when I know I know a lot of the players there and how they play but they don't know who I am (if I so decided on a name change). The POINT is that meta is just one tool of many and by questioning the reasons behind why he felt he had to come into the game as he did, you created a negative environment for some players and that takes some of of the fun out of the game.

[Thane Vakarian]

meta is overrated....

[alannalynn]

  On 11/12/2015 at 8:29 AM, Thane Vakarian said:

meta is overrated....

hi Thane

[Thane Vakarian]

hi Laine.

 

gg to the wolves, ya got me

[alannalynn]

(I didn't do much- just a cheerleader, apparently)

 

You played a pretty Town game, Thane, made me glad to get to defend you!