Red Ajah Finding and Capturing Channeling Men... How?

[Jagen Sedai]

There is good reason to believe Nacelle from KoD and Nacelle from Gathering Storm are one and the same. After all, how did she discover that new weave? Nyn, Elayne and Egwene hardly came up with anything themselves--only Nynaeve did, when she Healed stilling and gentling. Everything else came from a Forsaken, so it is reasonable to believe Nacelle was also visited by one of the Forsaken and taught that weave. They wanted Aran'gar to be caught.

[mb]

More than just the mentioned Healing came from those characters.  terangreal making; Travelling; cuendillar making; madness Healing.  And various weaves were discovered by various Aes Sedia during the Mesaana search.  And there were at least 2 pre-series weaves not taught by Forsaken; Warder bond, adam making.

 

Not sure about Nacelle meeting with any Forsaken.  Most Forsaken meetings with anyone seem to be either told about or shown.  I doubt this would have been an exception if it occurred.

[Sabio]

The forsaken were rather stingy about teaching weaves.  As MB said lot of weaves/things were discovered by non forsaken.

[Orderofolde]

This is something I cannot ever remember being revealed in the WoT world, but how could Aes Sedai capture, or for that matter, detect a man who could channel? I suppose as far as 'detecting' them, the most they could do is go off of leads and speaking to people.

 

But has it been theorized or revealed in the books that there may be a way to detect men channeling? I cannot remember. In the least, I think I remember a way to detect the channeling of saidin as being discovered, but it doesn't make sense that the Red Ajah wouldn't know this knowledge already. I do remember from New Spring (I think) that each Ajah seems to have its own secret weaves they don't share with others, and even individual Sisters having secret weaves. 

They basically hunted down rumors of things out of the ordinary, wells drying up or the reverse, water suddenly gushing into dried up towns and villages, houses being smashed flat during the night except for the one belonging to the channeler's, men unusually lucky at finding veins of metals and ores, keeping an eye on the sons of men they had previously caught as we see several times like with Androl and Algarin their male relatives had been born with it.  That is why men originally went to the Black Tower to see if it was in them, aside from the fools who wanted to channel.

 

Some Aes Sedai WERE able to sense a man's channeling, those that possessed certain private Ter'angreal like Cadsuane that she earned and didn't think belonged to the tower.  She was knowledgeable about Nynaeve's paralis net (colored jewelry Ter'angreal) and told Nynaeve that her one device should be able to tell the difference between male and female channeling, which Nynaeve couldn't get to work.  This was probably because one set was pre-breaking, the other post-breaking, iirc.  Nynaeve's had a shield device that seemed to be from a post-breaking set, though Cadsuane's little ornament seemed to be able to tell the difference which you would think would be on a post-breaking set.  She was a Green, after all, but was responsible for bringing in several men that could channel that she happened to come across in her travels.  Then again, with the breaking, as with the difference between Angreal, each was fashioned and made into items styled after their Aes Sedai's likes and preferences.   

[mb]

about Ajah specific weaves, I recall only 1 being told about; Blue's.

 

not sure about the other Ajahs having a weave specific to them; or about there being other Ajah specific knowledge.

the closest seems to be the 13th depository; known to Sitters, the Amyrlin, the Keeper, and the librarians in charge of it.

[Sabio]

Didn't Cas ter'angreal also disrupt weaves?  I remember her almost daring Rand to channel at her and when Semi getting close her disguise faling apart.

[DemandredFO]

Cadsuane and Nyneave's were almost the same but post VoG Rand said there were differences. Yes she had a disruption one don't know about Nyneave. We know Mat had a disruption one

[jack of shadows]

@demandredFO,

'cadsuane and nynaeve's were almost the same,but post vog rand said there were differences..."

 

post veins of gold? when?

as i recall,just before rand's meeting with the borderland rulers,he informed cadsuane that he is

well aware of the fact that she is  wearing a full paralis-net in her hair,which includes a well.

was there more?

[DemandredFO]

sorry, I think I misremembered, my bad

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Cadsuane and Nyneave's were almost the same but post VoG Rand said there were differences. Yes she had a disruption one don't know about Nyneave. We know Mat had a disruption one

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Rand didn't recognize some of the ornaments because some of the ter'angreal on both of them weren't invented until after the Breaking, such as the ones that detected channeling or the ones that did the same thing as Mat's medallion.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

about Ajah specific weaves, I recall only 1 being told about; Blue's.

 

not sure about the other Ajahs having a weave specific to them; or about there being other Ajah specific knowledge.

the closest seems to be the 13th depository; known to Sitters, the Amyrlin, the Keeper, and the librarians in charge of it.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Each Ajah does have secret weaves, and so did individual sisters, which is part of how so many weaves were forgotten. Even the girls commented that when they showed some of the new weaves they'd invented or learned from Moghedien, some of the sisters either learned the weave too quickly or didn't seem suitably surprised or impressed.

[mb]

prequel through Memory of Light confirm individual sisters having secret weaves; but not non-Blue Ajahs.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

prequel through Memory of Light confirm individual sisters having secret weaves; but not non-Blue Ajahs.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Well it stands to reason that if individual sisters have their own individual weaves, and we know that the Blue Ajah has some secrets weaves (like the one to induce fear), then it stands to reason that other Ajahs would have their own special weaves. In AMoL, the Greys, as ambassadors, claimed Traveling as their special weave...Yukiri (a Gray) even invented the horizontal gateway.

[mb]

yet Traveling is known to all Ajahs; also to other channelers.  as well as Skimming.

and Yukiri showed her weave to members of multiple Ajahs.  "discovered" seems more accurate than "invented"; the Creator I take invented all weaves.

 

by the way, it would be better to post replies in 1 post than in 2 or more posts.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

yet Traveling is known to all Ajahs; also to other channelers. as well as Skimming.

and Yukiri showed her weave to members of multiple Ajahs. "discovered" seems more accurate than "invented"; the Creator I take invented all weaves.

 

by the way, it would be better to post replies in 1 post than in 2 or more posts.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

All Aes Sedai know now, but remember certain factions in the Tower tried to keep it a secret, and even Egwene tried to restict knowledge until the Black Ajah was eliminated. What other weaves do u think maybe they kept secret from one another? Verin had a bookmark that made books invisible, Moiraine knew how to make a fog, which she said only maybe a handful of sisters could do (apparently u had to be pretty strong for that). And what about Egwene tricky eavesdropping weave with the whispery echo to make a nosy person set off her mental alarm? Both Elayne and Nynaeve were amazed that she even how to do such a thing (i think it was another one of her double weaves like the cuendillar one), but other than those two, I don't think anyone ever saw such a thing, and I don't think she learned it from Moghedien, the Seanchan, or the Wise Ones. I also believe that Aes Sedai keeping their OP secrets from one another was the cause of so many weaves being lost after the Breaking, because I'm sure it was probably at least 500-600 years after the Breaking before the last AoL Aes Sedai died.

[DemandredFO]

Travelling had to have been lost through secrecy because it's shown almost anyone could make a gateway without a link.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Travelling had to have been lost through secrecy because it's shown almost anyone could make a gateway without a link.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

True and not true...Most Aes Sedai can make a gateway, but the average Aes Sedai can't make a actual usuable one, big enough to actually walk through. After being Healed from stilling Siuan Sanchez needed an angreal to Travel, and even then it was only big enough to crawl through. In Ebou Dar, Elayne and Nynaeve were the only Aes Sedai strong enough to channel, even though from all OP charts I've ever seen, all of them were average....In fact the last chart I saw (on this forum, in fact) an Aes Sedai of average strength would be about 2 levels too weak to make a usuable gateway.. we must remember that the girls were all exceptional, and many of the things they did with little or no effort at all.

 

Ex. -- Cuendillar...When Egwene did it, it was instant, but out of over 1200 women, only about 2 dozen or so could do it, and except for Leane and Mat's sister Bode (go Two Rivers!!), it took an hour or so.

[Orderofolde]

True and not true...Most Aes Sedai can make a gateway, but the average Aes Sedai can't make a actual usuable one, big enough to actually walk through. After being Healed from stilling Siuan Sanchez needed an angreal to Travel, and even then it was only big enough to crawl through. In Ebou Dar, Elayne and Nynaeve were the only Aes Sedai strong enough to channel, even though from all OP charts I've ever seen, all of them were average....In fact the last chart I saw (on this forum, in fact) an Aes Sedai of average strength would be about 2 levels too weak to make a usuable gateway.. we must remember that the girls were all exceptional, and many of the things they did with little or no effort at all.

 

Ex. -- Cuendillar...When Egwene did it, it was instant, but out of over 1200 women, only about 2 dozen or so could do it, and except for Leane and Mat's sister Bode (go Two Rivers!!), it took an hour or so.

That was because it took great strength in working earth which most sisters were weak in to make it go that fast, in addition to a talent.  Most others with the talent for the making could use their weaker strength in earth to make it but depending on strength it went much slower.  And then for those with a strong talent (like Androl and his gateway talent) for making Cuendillar it could go easier and faster just like other weaves and abilities in channeling.  And most Aes Sedai could form the weave itself but were too weak to get it to engage unless they linked as we saw happen more and more in the later books.  

 

The end of the last age was a time for rediscovery as well as the creation of new weaves.  I believe that Mogi telling the Salidar girls what had been possible allowed them to puzzle out more weaves than anything she showed them.  She made the girls drag out next to worthless weaves from her.  I think all the discoveries came from a combination of factors, like the informal training they received from the Tower sisters now allowing them to be so rigidly restricted in believing that only what they could learn could be done.  This seemed to be a handicap the Aes Sedai suffered from.  Most weaves learned were done so in certain ways, and sisters were able to identify who had taught the Aes Sedai the particular weave by the manner in which they created it, through gestures, weave formation, etc.  This, combined with exposure the various girls had with other channeler groups such as the Seanchan, Wind Finders, and Wise Ones, it allowed them to keep an open mind and to actually create new weaves which was something Aes Sedai had been extremely limited in doing.  (No imagination, with a few examples that believed some things could be achieved like the Gray who thought people could fly and had that giant air cushion weave that saved Siuan and Gareth Bryne when they had to fall through the gateway to escape the Sharan attack.)  

[Sabio]

Orderofolde touched on a good point. 

1. Experimenting with the power was frowned upon,

2. The yellow Ajah for instance is tasked for finding new methods to fight sickness.   In the BWB it explains "Though in truth few believe any better methods exist".  So they really never tried to find anyway better, if it wasn't for Nyn healing being stilled or curing the DO taint of the mind would never of been fixed.  It took the girls and their discoveries to get the Aes Sedai to start using their heads.

3. Since experimenting with the power could be dangerous, there weren't a lot of Aes Sedai willing to risk being burnt out or death to discover something new.  They knew a lot of weaves were forgotten, but who was going to risk themselves to try and find new weaves?

 

So the Aes Sedai were pretty set in their ways, and many new things were forgotten since Aes Sedai rarely passed on the tricks they knew. That was the biggest weakness of the Aes Sedai, instead of taking in new girls and bringing in new ideas.  Anyone brought into the tower they immedietly tried to change to fit in.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

I think that mindset was relatively current...Cadsuane also remarked that the younger Aes Sedai lacked the ability to innovate, and that she was saddened at what the Tower had been producing as of late when the came to Aes Sedai, but some of the latest crop (the Supergirls & Associates) showed promise.