the Tower Split; what would you choose

[Azrayne]

or they could have more visibly been seen to meddle in the affairs of nations and ended up leashed the world over.

 

 

How is healing people meddling? And they're already seen that way, and have been for over a thousand years. Sure, there's always going to be a level of distrust when there's such a massive gap in personal and political power, but the Aes Sedai actually fulfilling their self proclaimed role in society would go a long way towards abating that mistrust.

 

also if they'd been doing their job as defined by you,

 

 

Their job as defined by RJ :

 

"Yellow sisters are wholly devoted to Healing sickness and injury" - World of TWOT

 

And of course Aes Sedai itself means "Servants of All."

 

we are left with a different world and no book series.

 

 

A different setting, but I don't see how that means the books can't exist. The entire premise of the series isn't predicated on the fact that the Ajahs do or don't do their jobs - it would just be more realistic and more believable, thus making a better series, if they did.

 

if you're angry about the characters he must have succeeded in making them real to you. kudos RJ.

 

 

No, I'm annoyed because they don't seem real to me. The totally unrealistic way they behave as an organization and, for most of them, as individuals, and the fact that nobody notices this, just makes absolutely no sense. Imagine if the Red Ajah never bothered to gentle a male channeler unless they just happened to wander across one, allowing them to rampage through the world causing death and destruction. Wouldn't people be like "hey, why aren't these women who claim their purpose in life is to stop male channelers actually stopping male channelers?" Wouldn't it just foster further suspicion and mistrust and hatred towards Aes Sedai? Wouldn't it weaken them politically that they don't provide a massive benefit to society, one they claim is their responsibility and then fail to fulfill, despite being the best suited for the job? Wouldn't the Amyrlin and the Hall at some stage be sitting there wondering why they're paying a pension to these women for hundreds of years when all the women do is idle around or pursue their own lives of leisure instead of fulfilling their role in society, resulting in a massive loss of respect and trust from the general population?

 

Each of the Ajahs has a job by which it is defined (although some of those definitions are rather loose). The Reds protect the world from maddened male channelers, a job they perform efficiently, if somewhat ruthlessly. The Greens "Hold themselves ready for the Last Battle," which seems to be an excuse to not do much of anything at all except perving on the Warder trainees, when instead they and their Warders could be accompanying soldiers along the blight protecting the Borderlands*. The Blues "pursue causes," which, Moiraine and Siuan's search for the Dragon Reborn aside, seems to mainly consist of arguing with the Reds. The Brown's are academics, which seems to keep them occupied. The whites are rather vaguely dedicated to "philosophy," which doesn't seem to entail much more than wearing a lot of white clothing and acting like Spock. The greys work as negotiators and the political hand of the tower, and like the Reds and browns actually seem to fulfill that role. And then it's back to the Yellows.

 

Honestly, I'm quite convinced that Jordan just squeezed some of the Ajahs in so he could round it up to 7 (sacrilege, I know).

 

 

*Which they certainly don't do by the time the series starts, and we know they don't do at least as of the fall of Malkier (and implicitly a lot earlier), since when Lan asks Moiraine why the White Tower didn't help protect Malkier, she responds that they sent sisters from the tower, but they were too slow in getting there. Why weren't there any to begin with?

 

I'd maybe buy that it's part of the wider dissipation of Westland society, except that not all of the Amyrlins could have possibly been stupid enough to not realize the benefits to the Tower of actually taking part in helping society. They moan about girls not coming to the Tower to be tested anymore when most people haven't even seen an Aes Sedai, those that have get treated like dirt as often as not and stories, sayings and rumors about Aes Sedai are all about how manipulative and deceitful they are.

[Sooh]

That's just the thing though... if the AS had done exactly what their little Ajah notebook said they should they wouldn't have had anything to learn through the books. The AS are faulty, as are all other people in RJ's world. That's what makes it an interesting read. At least it does to me.

[Azrayne]

I dunno, there's plenty of change and learning and conflict - the tower split (granted the ajahs played a large role, but it could have been written otherwise), the massive emergence of stronger channelers and new capabilities, contact with other channeler groups, the restructuring of their organization and social ordering, learning a bit of humility and not trying to control the world for their own ends, the emergence of organized male channelers and their acceptance into society post-Cleansing, etc etc.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

again, you're angry about how fictional characters were written.

 

but that's how they were written and could not have done anything else.

 

as for no one else seeing that, unless you've purposely avoided the millions of words of criticism about this series, many of them in this forum, you must know lots of people see things the way you see them.

 

I'll keep seeing them my own way. that's ok.

[Zander?]

i think the purpose with any character in the book is that no one is perfect...all the characters have their flaws from the AS to Rand to the Forsaken.  Just like none of us are perfect.  Thier character flaws are like our own or poeple we know, which to me make them much more relatable.  Epic job Mr. Jordan.  Just my 2 cents worth.

 

As for the break I would have joined The Dragon Reborn because although he has to fight the Dark One alone in the end, he'd need all the help and guidance possible!!!

[Sabio]

You are  sort of missing the point Az, that was the Aes Sedai.  They thought they knew better, they assumed what they did was right, etc.  The Aes Sedai as an organization was set up not to change.  Channeling bred  sort of  an arrogance, that Aes Sedai felt set them apart from the world.  It took Egwene/Nyn/Elayne and even Rand with an outsider view not yet an Aes Sedai long enough to fall into their way of  doing things to bring change.  Like seeing how the kin could  benefit the tower. That was part I got out of this story was  how set in their ways the Aes Sedai were and how in nearly destroyed them.  Rand reminding the Asha'man they were men and not simply weapons was a reminder they were to be part of the world and not keep themselves apart like the Aes Sedai always did.   I think change scared the Aes Sedai, what you know is comfortable.

[Barid Bel Medar]

You are  sort of missing the point Az, that was Aes Sedai.  They thought they knew better, they assumed what they did was right, etc.  The Aes Sedai as an organization was set up not to change.  Channeling bread  sort of  an arrogance, that Aes Sedai felt set them apart from the world.  It took Egwene/Nyn/Elayne and even Rand with an outsider view not yet an Aes Sedai long enough to fall into their way of  doing things to bring change.  Like seeing how the kin could  benefit the tower. That was part I got out of this story was  how set in their ways the Aes Sedai were and how in nearly destroyed them.  Rand reminding the Asha'man they were men and not simply weapons was a reminder they were to be part of the world and not keep themselves apart like the Aes Sedai always did.   I think change scared the Aes Sedai, what you know is comfortable.

 

Pretty much. 

 

And all anyone needs to do is pick up a history book if they doubt that people/societies can be so ignorant of their own shortcomings. It looks stupid from someone who knows better, but organizations like that are very real, and are often unable to see their on fallibility.

[jack of shadows]

@sabio,

"it took egwene/nyn/elayne and even rand with an outsider view...."

you got it backwards,

1.rand was the catalyst,his sudden appearance after three thousand years literally

shook the world,in other words,he changed the rules.

2.egwene was a strange one,her character was constantly fluctuating,dancing to an

imaginary tune going two steps forward then one step back.

3.elayne,well,the one thing we should never forget about elayne is that she always will

be queen of andor first,she is also the dragon reborn lover,so the white tower(as an

institution) was never going be her first priority.

4.nynaeve. shortcomings aside,nynaeve is the only aes sedai who really understood

what's wrong with the white tower" so even while we try to guide the world we seperate

ourselves from it.we risk arrogance, egwene,we always assume we know the best,but

making ourselves unable to fathom the people we claim to serve."

 

i completely agree with the rest of your post.

[mb]

staying in the tower not an option for a Green?  At least some Greens stayed in the tower and/or supported Elaida.

 

channeling forbidden in Tear?  It was until Rand took Callandor.  and that was before the time of the Tower split.

[Sabio]

The channeling forbidden in tear wasn't about the split is was to the question why the yellow's weren't running around the land healing folks.  It hard to go about healing folks when channeling is forbidden in some places and mistrusted by almost everyone.

[mb]

My point was this::

"Since channeling was no longer forbidden in Tear, Yellows could have chosen to Heal in Tear."

 

Edit::

and Tear seemed to no longer mistrust Aes Sedia (or any channeler); at least the capital.

[Azrayne]

The channeling forbidden in tear wasn't about the split is was to the question why the yellow's weren't running around the land healing folks.  It hard to go about healing folks when channeling is forbidden in some places and mistrusted by almost everyone.

 

 

It's mistrusted precisely because the populace are so rarely exposed to it, especially in a positive manner. If there were Aes Sedai healers set up in major populace centers and wandering the countryside, showing people that Aes Sedai are really looking out for the good of humanity instead of just their own mysterious goals, exposing people more frequently to the OP in a positive fashion and to Aes Sedai acting in a charitable and altruistic fashion, then far more people would be willing to trust them. It's easy to mistrust the woman from a mysterious organization with a terrible reputation who possesses (to the common folk) godlike powers, wandering the countryside manipulating people whom they look down on - but what if there was an Aes Sedai set up in your city, one who saved your child when he fell off his horse, or your wife when she was bleeding out during childbirth, etc etc? It would be a lot easier to trust them and a lot harder for Whitecloaks and the like to convince people they're witches and darkfriends.

 

Not only that, but the benefits to the Tower itself would be massive. How many more informants would they have, how many more girls would want to come to learn to be just like the nice lady who saved their favorite uncles' life, how much more open would political figures be to their influence if they were seen as approachable and altruistic? They could also work with the Reds, handing in men who come in with the symptoms of beginning to channel unknowingly before their power grows enough to be a serious threat. How long before people in places like Amadicia or Tear got sick of their friends and family dying in ways that wouldn't happen over the border where the nice Aes Sedai have a hospital set up? How many of the High Lords of Tear would lose loved ones to causes which would have been easily healed over the border in Mayene or Illien before they begin to rethink their ban on channeling? You'd have to be a political moron not to see the benefits.

[Mr Ares]

 

The channeling forbidden in tear wasn't about the split is was to the question why the yellow's weren't running around the land healing folks.  It hard to go about healing folks when channeling is forbidden in some places and mistrusted by almost everyone.

 

 

It's mistrusted precisely because the populace are so rarely exposed to it, especially in a positive manner. If there were Aes Sedai healers set up in major populace centers and wandering the countryside, showing people that Aes Sedai are really looking out for the good of humanity instead of just their own mysterious goals, exposing people more frequently to the OP in a positive fashion and to Aes Sedai acting in a charitable and altruistic fashion, then far more people would be willing to trust them. It's easy to mistrust the woman from a mysterious organization with a terrible reputation who possesses (to the common folk) godlike powers, wandering the countryside manipulating people whom they look down on - but what if there was an Aes Sedai set up in your city, one who saved your child when he fell off his horse, or your wife when she was bleeding out during childbirth, etc etc? It would be a lot easier to trust them and a lot harder for Whitecloaks and the like to convince people they're witches and darkfriends.

 

Not only that, but the benefits to the Tower itself would be massive. How many more informants would they have, how many more girls would want to come to learn to be just like the nice lady who saved their favorite uncles' life, how much more open would political figures be to their influence if they were seen as approachable and altruistic? They could also work with the Reds, handing in men who come in with the symptoms of beginning to channel unknowingly before their power grows enough to be a serious threat. How long before people in places like Amadicia or Tear got sick of their friends and family dying in ways that wouldn't happen over the border where the nice Aes Sedai have a hospital set up? How many of the High Lords of Tear would lose loved ones to causes which would have been easily healed over the border in Mayene or Illien before they begin to rethink their ban on channeling? You'd have to be a political moron not to see the benefits.

 

No matter what the AS do, that problem of people not being exposed to the OP in a positive manner remains. There are just too few of them to truly make it otherwise. While you can certainly make some gains most people will still not be exposed. Consider this: with about 1,000 AS, that's an average of about 143 women per Ajah. So the Yellows set up in major population centres - how many population centres, and how many AS does each one have? More Healers wandering the countryside further reduces the number of people you have available. With maybe one AS in a whole city, she can't Heal everyone, and so she has to prioritise. You have the narrow band between people hurt enough to need an AS, but not so hurt that you can't get to her (or get her to you) before it's too late. So most people will probably go to local healers anyway. Now consider the Greens - defending the Blightborder with but a handful of channelers is an impossibility. If you concentrate forces in certain locations then the Shadow can simply focus attacks elsewhere. If you spread out to cover more places, the Shadow attacks in force and you're overwhelmed. The AS are not in a position that has an easy solution, and their failures to do certain things are often understandable, because of the limited benefits of them. They might have done them in the past and pulled back from them in times of crisis to focus elsewhere, and were never able to go back to them.

[Azrayne]

No matter what the AS do, that problem of people not being exposed to the OP in a positive manner remains. There are just too few of them to truly make it otherwise. While you can certainly make some gains most people will still not be exposed. Consider this: with about 1,000 AS, that's an average of about 143 women per Ajah. So the Yellows set up in major population centres - how many population centres, and how many AS does each one have? More Healers wandering the countryside further reduces the number of people you have available. With maybe one AS in a whole city, she can't Heal everyone, and so she has to prioritise. You have the narrow band between people hurt enough to need an AS, but not so hurt that you can't get to her (or get her to you) before it's too late. So most people will probably go to local healers anyway. Now consider the Greens - defending the Blightborder with but a handful of channelers is an impossibility. If you concentrate forces in certain locations then the Shadow can simply focus attacks elsewhere. If you spread out to cover more places, the Shadow attacks in force and you're overwhelmed. The AS are not in a position that has an easy solution, and their failures to do certain things are often understandable, because of the limited benefits of them. They might have done them in the past and pulled back from them in times of crisis to focus elsewhere, and were never able to go back to them.

 

 

Of course they can't do everything themselves, but the point is that they could be making a positive difference and creating a visible, approachable, positive image for the population. Let's say you're the Amyrlin Seat, or a Yellow sister tasked by her with setting up a network of healers across the land for aforementioned purposes. Start with the capital cities, we've got:

 

Amador

Caemlyn

Cairhien

Chachin

Ebou Dar

Fal Moran

Jehannah

Lugard

Maradon

Shol Arbela

Tanchico

Tear

Mayene

Tar Valon

Far Madding

 

Now we can rule out, in the immediate moment, Far Madding due to the Guardian, and Amador and Tear due to the Whitecloaks and the law against channelling respectively. These are factors which could possibly be altered in the future - Tear seems the most likely, since they simply distrust the power and ban it's use, a law is easily changed if social attitudes change beforehand, although it would still take a long time, possibly in the centuries But the Tower can afford to play the long game, that's one of their main advantages.

 

Amador would be an even more long term prospect due to the influence of the Whitecloaks - but generations of saved lives in other nations and possibly stories coming south from the borderlands (assuming the Greens undergo a similar change and that their presence in the Borderlands makes a difference in image as far south as Amador - after all, Whitecloaks are supposed to stand for the Light, just as it's hard to call someone a darkfriend when they save lives, it's also hard to call them a darkfriend when they dedicate, and possibly sacrifice, their lives fighting shadowspawn) would change their image internationally, and generations of Amadicians losing loved ones who would have survived across the border would possibly eventually stir up pro-Tower sentiment within Amadicia (we know at least some already exists, as the Yellows have at least one agent there). That may or may not enough to counteract the powerful influence of the Whitecloaks, but every bit of political and social influence helps.

 

Far Madding is an interesting case. The Guardian prevents the setting up of a healer/hospital within the city walls, but one could easily be located in a small settlement just out of range. Whether it would be allowed it another matter, but even if opposed initially, I can imagine they would come around to common sense with time.

 

As for the rest of the cities - Tar Valon is the obvious starting point, since people there seem to unanimously respect, if not outright adore, the Aes Sedai. Caemlyn would probably accept as soon as the concept is offered, given that their attitude towards AS isn't far behind Tar Valon itself. Cairhien is probably the next best city to approach - it's quite likely that they would perceive the move to set up a permanent Yellow healing center as a move to gain political power of some kind of another (which is partly true), but the Tower is supposed to excel at the game of houses, so surely some bargaining by the Grey sisters, maybe the Amyrlin herself speaking to the king, would manage to bring things into place, especially if the Tower made a small concession or two.

 

From there the Borderlands are the obvious next step. They respect women in general and Aes Sedai especially (probably due to memories of the Trolloc Wars, or perhaps there was a distant time when the Greens did take a more active role in defending against the Blight), and they would have the most desperate need, with plenty of wounded from raids and battles. This could be combined with the move to have the Green sisters take a more active role in defending against the blight - send a contingent of Greens and their warders to accompany soldiers in defending against raids and common incursion points (Tarwin's Gap, etc), and Yellows to set up healing centers in the major population centers or, for those also suited to combat, to accompany the scouting parties and heal their wounded, as well as add another Warder to fight.

 

From there they could spread out into the more distant cities and nations over time - as word spreads of the benefits in the cities with centers already set up, it's possible that many would approach the Tower and request them - obviously the ideal situation. Mayene would be difficult, and possibly have to wait until Tear comes around. Ebou Dar might have to be skipped over, for obvious reasons. Even nations lacking formal healing centers could benefit from wandering healers (who could simultaneously pick out girls with the spark or the ability to be trained - look at how quickly the Black Tower and the rebel Aes Sedai swelled in numbers when they began actively recruited).

 

As for the centers themselves - yes a lot of manpower would be required (so to speak), but that's the whole point - the yellow sisters are sitting around on their butts all day instead of actually healing. It wouldn't be a full blown hospital in the modern sense, since they don't have modern transport and technology available, but a small center, housing, say, 2 - 5 sisters, depending on the size of the city and the number of injured (more are going to be needed in the Borderlands, for example), accompanied by Wise One style nurses who know the human body and how to care for the sick and heal those not requiring the OP (an excellent way to find new novices, incidentally, given the seeming predilection for herbal healers to turn out to be wilders or learners). The leftover yellows could be put on rotating shifts of wandering the smaller towns and villages, healing where they can.

 

The same could be done for the Greens. Remember how excited Agelmar is in EOTW when Moiraine arrives, saying that even one Aes Sedai could turn the tide at Tarwin's Gap. Imagine if each of the Borderland nations had 10 or 15 sisters (and their 1 - 4 warders each) assigned to them, to fight off raids, venture into the blight when necessary, etc.

 

Anyway, obviously that's not how it was written, but that's what bugs me. The benefits are so enormous that the Aes Sedai would have to be absolute morons to not recognize it, and for me as a reader, this discrepancy really detracted from the realism of the setting.

[Mr Ares]

 

No matter what the AS do, that problem of people not being exposed to the OP in a positive manner remains. There are just too few of them to truly make it otherwise. While you can certainly make some gains most people will still not be exposed. Consider this: with about 1,000 AS, that's an average of about 143 women per Ajah. So the Yellows set up in major population centres - how many population centres, and how many AS does each one have? More Healers wandering the countryside further reduces the number of people you have available. With maybe one AS in a whole city, she can't Heal everyone, and so she has to prioritise. You have the narrow band between people hurt enough to need an AS, but not so hurt that you can't get to her (or get her to you) before it's too late. So most people will probably go to local healers anyway. Now consider the Greens - defending the Blightborder with but a handful of channelers is an impossibility. If you concentrate forces in certain locations then the Shadow can simply focus attacks elsewhere. If you spread out to cover more places, the Shadow attacks in force and you're overwhelmed. The AS are not in a position that has an easy solution, and their failures to do certain things are often understandable, because of the limited benefits of them. They might have done them in the past and pulled back from them in times of crisis to focus elsewhere, and were never able to go back to them.

 

 

Of course they can't do everything themselves, but the point is that they could be making a positive difference and creating a visible, approachable, positive image for the population. Let's say you're the Amyrlin Seat, or a Yellow sister tasked by her with setting up a network of healers across the land for aforementioned purposes. Start with the capital cities, we've got:

 

Amador

Caemlyn

Cairhien

Chachin

Ebou Dar

Fal Moran

Jehannah

Lugard

Maradon

Shol Arbela

Tanchico

Tear

Mayene

Tar Valon

Far Madding

 

Now we can rule out, in the immediate moment, Far Madding due to the Guardian, and Amador and Tear due to the Whitecloaks and the law against channelling respectively. These are factors which could possibly be altered in the future - Tear seems the most likely, since they simply distrust the power and ban it's use, a law is easily changed if social attitudes change beforehand, although it would still take a long time, possibly in the centuries But the Tower can afford to play the long game, that's one of their main advantages.

 

Amador would be an even more long term prospect due to the influence of the Whitecloaks - but generations of saved lives in other nations and possibly stories coming south from the borderlands (assuming the Greens undergo a similar change and that their presence in the Borderlands makes a difference in image as far south as Amador - after all, Whitecloaks are supposed to stand for the Light, just as it's hard to call someone a darkfriend when they save lives, it's also hard to call them a darkfriend when they dedicate, and possibly sacrifice, their lives fighting shadowspawn) would change their image internationally, and generations of Amadicians losing loved ones who would have survived across the border would possibly eventually stir up pro-Tower sentiment within Amadicia (we know at least some already exists, as the Yellows have at least one agent there). That may or may not enough to counteract the powerful influence of the Whitecloaks, but every bit of political and social influence helps.

 

Far Madding is an interesting case. The Guardian prevents the setting up of a healer/hospital within the city walls, but one could easily be located in a small settlement just out of range. Whether it would be allowed it another matter, but even if opposed initially, I can imagine they would come around to common sense with time.

 

As for the rest of the cities - Tar Valon is the obvious starting point, since people there seem to unanimously respect, if not outright adore, the Aes Sedai. Caemlyn would probably accept as soon as the concept is offered, given that their attitude towards AS isn't far behind Tar Valon itself. Cairhien is probably the next best city to approach - it's quite likely that they would perceive the move to set up a permanent Yellow healing center as a move to gain political power of some kind of another (which is partly true), but the Tower is supposed to excel at the game of houses, so surely some bargaining by the Grey sisters, maybe the Amyrlin herself speaking to the king, would manage to bring things into place, especially if the Tower made a small concession or two.

 

From there the Borderlands are the obvious next step. They respect women in general and Aes Sedai especially (probably due to memories of the Trolloc Wars, or perhaps there was a distant time when the Greens did take a more active role in defending against the Blight), and they would have the most desperate need, with plenty of wounded from raids and battles. This could be combined with the move to have the Green sisters take a more active role in defending against the blight - send a contingent of Greens and their warders to accompany soldiers in defending against raids and common incursion points (Tarwin's Gap, etc), and Yellows to set up healing centers in the major population centers or, for those also suited to combat, to accompany the scouting parties and heal their wounded, as well as add another Warder to fight.

 

From there they could spread out into the more distant cities and nations over time - as word spreads of the benefits in the cities with centers already set up, it's possible that many would approach the Tower and request them - obviously the ideal situation. Mayene would be difficult, and possibly have to wait until Tear comes around. Ebou Dar might have to be skipped over, for obvious reasons. Even nations lacking formal healing centers could benefit from wandering healers (who could simultaneously pick out girls with the spark or the ability to be trained - look at how quickly the Black Tower and the rebel Aes Sedai swelled in numbers when they began actively recruited).

 

As for the centers themselves - yes a lot of manpower would be required (so to speak), but that's the whole point - the yellow sisters are sitting around on their butts all day instead of actually healing. It wouldn't be a full blown hospital in the modern sense, since they don't have modern transport and technology available, but a small center, housing, say, 2 - 5 sisters, depending on the size of the city and the number of injured (more are going to be needed in the Borderlands, for example), accompanied by Wise One style nurses who know the human body and how to care for the sick and heal those not requiring the OP (an excellent way to find new novices, incidentally, given the seeming predilection for herbal healers to turn out to be wilders or learners). The leftover yellows could be put on rotating shifts of wandering the smaller towns and villages, healing where they can.

 

The same could be done for the Greens. Remember how excited Agelmar is in EOTW when Moiraine arrives, saying that even one Aes Sedai could turn the tide at Tarwin's Gap. Imagine if each of the Borderland nations had 10 or 15 sisters (and their 1 - 4 warders each) assigned to them, to fight off raids, venture into the blight when necessary, etc.

 

Anyway, obviously that's not how it was written, but that's what bugs me. The benefits are so enormous that the Aes Sedai would have to be absolute morons to not recognize it, and for me as a reader, this discrepancy really detracted from the realism of the setting.

 

How things are portrayed in the series, the AS didn't just arrive at where they are overnight. They've been shaped over time. They were trusted, but trust was eroded, so they turned to the Oath Rod. Hawkwing pushed them back to the WT. If they were doing those things before Hawkwing, they would have had to stop then. And as doing them apparently didn't do them much good, they were probably not in a hurry to go back to them. While they could do these things, they are just a drop in the ocean. Ultimately, they have too few AS to truly turn the tide by doing these things, and the benefits are only small. Will they be creating a positive, approachable image? No. They'll be helping some people but not others, and the majority of people will not have access to AS help when they need it. You go to one of these AS hospitals, and get treated by a woman with some herbs, because the AS is too busy and must prioritise. She doesn't have time for you. And the more places you expand into the worse the problem gets, because you're spreading the AS thinner and thinner. Woman wandering the countryside? Well, that will be useful if you should stumble across one, but it's hardly a useful way of actually getting help to people who need it. And by having Yellows wandering the countryside like that (which they might already be doing, given that at any given time there are plenty of AS out of the WT) you have fewer available to help in the centres in the towns and cities. As for the Greens, you could imagine fifty sisters to each Borderland nation, but the problem remains - it's easy enough to strike where they aren't, unless they spread too thin in which case you strike hard enough to take out the AS. Even if the AS did these things, they would still not be trusted. They would mitigate the damage somewhat, at best, but to most people the reputation of the AS would remain.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

a strong sub theme of the book is the renewal and reinvigoration of the AS, imo, into a much greater, much larger thing. a return to what it was in the AOL, inclusive of male and female channellers, and encompassing all the many divided subgroups like the kin, and wind finders, and possibly the remnant of wise ones, and all those born with the ability to learn.

 

I wonder if the future would have brought a confrontation with the seanchan and reintegration of seanchan channellers, leash holders and leashed, into the greater world of channellers. they do have a very good way of assessing the abilities to channel or learn to channel at a young age.

 

but yeah, those AS rattling around like dice in a mostly abandoned WT of the beginning of the series leaving to do good in the great world would have ended up like the Grail seekers, lost and broken, scattered to the winds, without the increase in numbers we get throughout the story.

[Azrayne]

 

but yeah, those AS rattling around like dice in a mostly abandoned WT of the beginning of the series leaving to do good in the great world would have ended up like the Grail seekers, lost and broken, scattered to the winds, without the increase in numbers we get throughout the story.

 

 

The increase in numbers would have happened as a result of a greater global presence.

 

But w/e, we're just back and forwarding the same points. I just think it's super unrealistic and kinda spoils the believability of the setting.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

no, the AS as they existed at the start of the story would never have taken grandmothers or wilders or kin into the fold. they would have been divided and conquered way before they managed to make any changes.

 

they're magic wielders in a fantasy series so super realistic and believability aren't things I'm looking for anyway.

 

I notice you gave up arguing with Mr Ares

 

wise man.

[Sabio]

Exactly the Aes Sedai would never of changed unless they were forced too. 

[Azrayne]

no, the AS as they existed at the start of the story would never have taken grandmothers or wilders or kin into the fold. they would have been divided and conquered way before they managed to make any changes.

 

they're magic wielders in a fantasy series so super realistic and believability aren't things I'm looking for anyway.

 

I notice you gave up arguing with Mr Ares

 

wise man.

 

I gave up making the same points over and over when people seem to struggle with the concept that the books could have been anything other than what they ended up as - if he's genuinely interested in a well thought out rebuttal to his post I'll happily offer one. Some people choose to see things a certain way, maybe they read the series differently than I do - everyone is different, coming from a different perspective. To me, the way the Ajahs and the Aes Sedai (don't) act is extremely unrealistic, it's contradictory to their stated goals and the actions they do make, and unrealistic behavior detracts from my enjoyment of the series (which obviously I still enjoy a great deal overall).

 

As for the whole "it's fantasy!" argument, that's just silly. Humans are humans, and they're explicitly stated to be living on a future version of the same world we're typing from right now. Just because you add fantastical and imaginative elements (constructed histories, unusual abilities, etc) doesn't mean that you don't have to maintain internal consistency. Imagine if the rules for channeling changed every book - if in TGH they say that only 13 women can link without a man, then in TSR they say it's 17, then in LOC they say linking can only be done in circles up to 13 of the same and of either gender. It would totally ruin the believability of the setting because it isn't internally consistent, which is possibly the most important part of any fantasy setting. RJ tried as hard as he could to maintain internal consistency with the fantastical elements of his books, and he did a very good job, but he didn't do so well when it came to the human elements, which is why we get totally unrealistic behavior from some characters, groups acting in ways that make no sense, socio-political setups that make no sense. Some of that can be written off as existing to ease the plot (if the Aiel and Seanchan spoke their own languages - which, realistically, they absolutely would, but which would create huge problems in their respective plotlines), but when people don't act like people, then it ruins that internal consistency just as much as if the rules for channeling changed from book to book.

[mb]

One change made by Aes Sedia seem unforced to at least me::  Some Reds considering bonding men that channel.

[Azrayne]

One change made by Aes Sedia seem unforced to at least me::  Some Reds considering bonding men that channel.

 

Yeah moving into the timeframe of the series and onwards, that one makes sense. I mean it's gonna take a major cultural shift in the red ajah, but when you think about it, their role has always been to "deal with" male channelers. When there was a taint, that meant gentling them for the greater good - once the taint is gone, they can "deals with" male channelers by working with them, studying how to use Saidin/Saidar together again, etc etc. Especially with a massive intake of new novices leading to a new generation without the prejudices of the oldschool Reds.

[Mr Ares]

 

no, the AS as they existed at the start of the story would never have taken grandmothers or wilders or kin into the fold. they would have been divided and conquered way before they managed to make any changes.

 

they're magic wielders in a fantasy series so super realistic and believability aren't things I'm looking for anyway.

 

I notice you gave up arguing with Mr Ares

 

wise man.

 

I gave up making the same points over and over when people seem to struggle with the concept that the books could have been anything other than what they ended up as

 

That's not a concept I ever struggled with

 

As for the whole "it's fantasy!" argument, that's just silly.

Also not an argument I was making. I pointed out that your fixes for the "unrealistic behaviour" you saw seemed more unrealistic.

[Azrayne]

So that's a "yes" on the rebuttal? Quite frankly I didn't read your first post because I figured it was more "but the books!" but it would be nice to debate with someone who actually provides reasoned responses.

[Mr Ares]

So that's a "yes" on the rebuttal? Quite frankly I didn't read your first post because I figured it was more "but the books!" but it would be nice to debate with someone who actually provides reasoned responses.

You may offer your rebuttal.