Why was the Salidar delegation to Rand so willing to believe he arranged for the attack on Demira Sedai.

[Wooandwowme]

Conclusion: either the Salidar delegation was under corpulsion or Fain had corrupted them in advance.

 

In the Lord of Chaos Demira Sedai is stabbed by supposed Aiel. The rest if the delegation is told of this by a 'good samaritan'. Team Jordan has stated the supposed Aiel were Fain's corrupted WhiteCloaks.

 

The Salidar delegation seemingly immediately blamed Rand and thought he was trying to intimidate them. The delegation then set out on almost the stupidest course of action possible sort of trying to shield Rand.

 

There are plenty of reasons for the delegation be suspicious of whether Rand was being attack. The White Cloaks looked nothing like Aiel. There were plenty with a motive to derail Salidar getting close to Rand. It could have been Aiel acting separate from Rand etc.

 

In the Game of Houses, the effort to frame Rand would be crude and amateurish and would never succeed yet the Aes Sedai never questioned whether it was bad judgement. Aes Sedai are commonly considered to be exceptional players in the Game of Houses. Moraine certainly demonstrated an exceptional level of skill.

 

There are reasons for the delegation to be distrustful. The questions around Morgase, the amnesty and setup of the Black Tower, the general fear of male channlers etc. However there are not sufficient to result in their course of action.

 

I know Verin was manipulating the situation in the background but what we saw of her manipulations was not sufficient to turn the delegation against Rand as strongly as they did. Demira believed it was him as soon as she woke up before Verin said a word.

 

This level of stupidity can only be down to two things, compulsion or Fain's touch. Given the timeline there was no time for compulsion from the Black Ajah the forsaken so i believe Fain must have done this to them before hand so they would assume Rand arranged the attack. In Fain's pov he mentions the Aes Sedai gathering the Rand as a problem and thinks about the effect of his corruption on Elaida and Pedron Niall (them barely trusting their mothers).

[mb]

Gathering Storm reveals that Verin was Black.  And Path of Daggers tells that Verin knew some form of Compulsion.

And Compulsion can be done on more than one person at a time.  Moghedien done it on Nynaeve & Elayne; Shadow Rising.  Graendal did it on Moghedien & Cyndane; Path of Daggers.

 

Though I am not so sure about it be Compulsion or Fain's touch.

Not sure if Compulsion can affect the victim's beliefs.  And not sure if any of Fain's abilities (Compulsion seems to not be one of them) can change the beliefs of others.

 

It seems to me that one reason for believing Rand ordering it was that they did not bother investigating it.  And one reason for not investigating could be pride.

[Wooandwowme]

Reading through it again I have to admit you may be right.

 

Demira goes from confronting Rand to leading the two riders girls to Salida realises they may need Rand more than he needs them.

 

These changes in thinking sound like compulsion falling away more than Fain's touch which is permanent or good as.

[David Selig]

 

This level of stupidity can only be down to two things, compulsion or Fain's touch.

I very much disagree. This level of stupidity is quite common in the series when the plot requires it without either of these things.

[jack of shadows]

@david selig,

"this level of stupidity is quite common in the series...."

agreed,

in the crossroads of twilight,egwene jumps to farfetched conclusion believing that rand

might have used compulsion on the aes sedai in cairhain without a shred of evidence,

why couldn't she consider the possibility that rand was being manipulated or set up by

a forsaken or black ajah?

for the record,rand never used compulsion,not even once during his entire wheel of time

journey,even at his worst,spiralling out of control,rand didn't use compulsion,talk about

total failure of logic!

[Suttree]

@david selig,

"this level of stupidity is quite common in the series...."

agreed,

in the crossroads of twilight,egwene jumps to farfetched conclusion believing that rand

might have used compulsion on the aes sedai in cairhain without a shred of evidence,

why couldn't she consider the possibility that rand was being manipulated or set up by

a forsaken or black ajah?

for the record,rand never used compulsion,not even once during his entire wheel of time

journey,even at his worst,spiralling out of control,rand didn't use compulsion,talk about

total failure of logic!

 

Or talk about totally plausible in the context of what's come before:

 

Interview: Jan 20th, 2006

Robert Jordan's Blog: IT'S BEEN AWHILE (Verbatim)

  Robert Jordan

Various people have commented on Egwene being dumb with Rand, in particular contrasting how Pevara leaped immediately to a conclusion that he was ta'veren where the same information took Egwene to possible Compulsion. Pevara has a clean slate regarding Rand. Insofar as Compulsion goes, to her it is a forbidden weave, suppressed so effectively among women who come to the Tower that despite the fact that many wilders have some form of it as their first weaving, by the time the White Tower is done with them many of those same women can no longer make the weave nor, in some cases, even recall how to. How, then, does this young man come by Compulsion? Much more possible, however unlikely, that he is ta'veren. Egwene, on the other hand, grew up with Rand. She largely evaded the training that would have set the same thoughts regarding Compulsion in her head that Pevara has. Whatever Egwene has learned about Rand and now knows intellectually, there is a core of her that says he is Rand al'Thor rather the Dragon Reborn, or least before being the Dragon Reborn, and if Rand were in any way ta'veren, surely she would have noticed it during their years growing up. On the other hand, he has surprised her, and others, with abilities and knowledge of weaves, such as Traveling, that they didn't expect. If he is pulling strange weaves out of nowhere, who is to say that Compulsion isn't among them? It would certainly fit the information, after all.

[Turin Turambar]

@ Sutree. That us right from RJ so is beyond contestation as his reasoning. I think it is bad reasoning tho as it fails to take into account a few things.

 

First and foremost would be her estimation of his character. She should KNOW he would not be inclined to use compulsion. Second she has apparently forgotten that people are only taveren for the time the pattern needs them to be so there would not necessarily be anything to see. The second is revealing as she can't imagine herself to have ever been wrong or to have had missed something and is therefore free to assume the worst about someone she had history with despite having no background to make that assumption.

 

I think it was more likely a,way to create a little drama between rand and the aes sedai.

[jack of shadows]

@suttree,

i am well-aware about the interview robert jordan gave in 2006 and even then

i found his words questionable,it did sound like a pile of half-baked excuses to

exonerate egwene(he was probably surprised by the amount of flak egwene received

for her stupidity).

so is it totally plausible in the context of what's come before?

sure,if you are someone like elaida,but for someone like egwene?i don't think so.

not only egwene grew up with rand,she was also well-aware of the fact that rand

is a ta'veren,so to accuse him of using compulsion on aes sedai without a shred of

evidence was just plain stupid.

back to david selig post,we don't have to keep looking under rocks for compulsion

or for shadar logoth taint when both of them,robert jordan and brandon sanderson

were quite capable of turning the stupidity button to 11 when the plot required it.

why even go so far back to crossroads of twilight when we have a memory of light?

how can anyone take demandred role in the last battle seriously?strutting like a

disgruntled peacock and shouting endlessly for a duel with a guy who couldn't care

less,when any five years old randlander knew the location of rand in the last battle?

[mbuehner]

"The best way to catch whoever set a trap is to spring it and wait for him to come."

Nynaeve, The Dragon Reborn

 

Game, set, match.

[mb]

"The best way to catch whoever set a trap is to spring it and wait for him to come."

Nynaeve, The Dragon Reborn

 

Game, set, match.

The attack on Demira seems different from that situation.

The closest thing to that would be the delegation re-enact the circumstances then see if the attackers come again.  Yet the re-en-action might not have worked; Demira might have been the only time, or different people might come.

[Sabio]

Could simply be they didn't trust Rand to begin with and thought the Aiel were brutal savages.  We have no knowledge of them being around Fain to be exposed to his touch.  It easily could of simply been a DF aiel.  I think it more more of Verin manipualating the situation.

[mb]

Darkfriend Aiel?  I am not sure.  The delegation deduced that the attackers were ordered.

I guess Darkfriend Aiel would only take orders from a Forsaken.  Not sure what a Forsaken's motive for the attack would be.

[Sabio]

Or they would take orders from Fain, Fain mentioned he could point out a DF and your average DF would of had no idea Fain was a renegade.  A of being Aiel or not would take orders from whoever was higher ranking then they were.  It was ointed out in one of the books think from JAchin (the white cloak) that position made no difference when taking orders.  It was mentioned one of the highest ranking Df's was a beggar.  So even an Aiel would obey and order form a hgher ranking DF, since not to could have bad consequences.  If you look at the end results, A DF was in charge of the white Tower delegaton, the stabbing caused the Aes Sedai (manipulated by Verin, another DF) to the disaster of confronting  Rand.  Which caused him to go to where the White Tower delegation would be and into their trap. 

[wotfan4472]

Could the Aiel that attacked Demira have been the red veils in disguise?? to me, the Aiel were off and would not be something they would do except for the Shaido. Not with their history known by this point. Moridin would have a motive to frame Rand for the attack, and be something he would do; trying to keep the White Tower from joining the Light in the Last Battle, as well as pushing Rand to Elaida's delegation. This attack would be a good way to achieve these goals. Particularly with Dumai's Wells coming and Rand's capture by the other delegation. These two events caused serious damage to Rand's relationship with the Aes Sedai and would not be repaired for a loong time.

[mb]

The attackers were actually Whitecloaks (not Aiel), like the first post told.

 

Moridin I take was not around in Lord of Chaos.  Earliest moment for Ishamael's resurrection I take to be Crown of Swords.

The Forsaken that I take were around in Lord of Choas::

-Sammael

-Messaana

-Moghedien

-Graendal

-Semhirage

-Demandred

-Arangar (Balthamel resurrected)

-Osangar (Aginor resurrected)

[Asgard Thorin]

Gathering Storm reveals that Verin was Black.  And Path of Daggers tells that Verin knew some form of Compulsion.

And Compulsion can be done on more than one person at a time.  Moghedien done it on Nynaeve & Elayne; Shadow Rising.  Graendal did it on Moghedien & Cyndane; Path of Daggers.

 

Though I am not so sure about it be Compulsion or Fain's touch.

Not sure if Compulsion can affect the victim's beliefs.  And not sure if any of Fain's abilities (Compulsion seems to not be one of them) can change the beliefs of others.

 

It seems to me that one reason for believing Rand ordering it was that they did not bother investigating it.  And one reason for not investigating could be pride.

I think pride was involved, but remember, even Aiel could be Dark Friends. I think she was attacked by Aiel Dark Friends, and of course, DF's could and would be told about each other by the Forsaken. I imagine they had recognition symbols and signs as well. This seems to be the only logical conclusion, to me (Aes Sedai would not think wetlanders were Aiel, even with Compulsion, unless it was fatal Compulsion, the kind that would render them useless/Graendal-pet level)

[Asgard Thorin]

@suttree,

i am well-aware about the interview robert jordan gave in 2006 and even then

i found his words questionable,it did sound like a pile of half-baked excuses to

exonerate egwene(he was probably surprised by the amount of flak egwene received

for her stupidity).

so is it totally plausible in the context of what's come before?

sure,if you are someone like elaida,but for someone like egwene?i don't think so.

not only egwene grew up with rand,she was also well-aware of the fact that rand

is a ta'veren,so to accuse him of using compulsion on aes sedai without a shred of

evidence was just plain stupid.

back to david selig post,we don't have to keep looking under rocks for compulsion

or for shadar logoth taint when both of them,robert jordan and brandon sanderson

were quite capable of turning the stupidity button to 11 when the plot required it.

why even go so far back to crossroads of twilight when we have a memory of light?

how can anyone take demandred role in the last battle seriously?strutting like a

disgruntled peacock and shouting endlessly for a duel with a guy who couldn't care

less,when any five years old randlander knew the location of rand in the last battle?

I liked Demandred in Book Fourteen. He'd gone mad with obsession. Remember also, only Rand knew what Rand was going to do. He kept his intentions to himself, until he needed to tell people. Tha'ts how I see it, anyway.

[jack of shadows]

@asgard thorin,

"only rand knew what rand was going to do.he kept his intentions to himself..."

that's true,rand did keep some of his intentions to himself,but he didn't keep

his destination secret,they all knew it(forces of light),heck,rand even told moridin

and lanfear about his intentions to go to shayol ghul and kill the dark one,the only

piece of information nobody knew was when rand will go to shayol ghul,so how hard

it was to deduce that rand would enter the pit of doom shortly after his forces surged

thakan'dar valley?

demandred obsession with lews therin was never a problem,his actions in the last battle

were,if he was so hell bent to resolve his enormous inferiority complex during the last

battle why do it in kandor?why not do it in shayol ghul?

let me tell you why,brandon sanderson couldn't let rand kill all the remaining forsaken,

others needed something to do too,so rand was paired with moridin,perrin with lanfear,

egwene with m'hael,graendal kept the channelers in shayol ghul busy and demandred

became a moron who fought three duels and died.(and no,i didn't forget moghedien).

[Asgard Thorin]

@asgard thorin,

"only rand knew what rand was going to do.he kept his intentions to himself..."

that's true,rand did keep some of his intentions to himself,but he didn't keep

his destination secret,they all knew it(forces of light),heck,rand even told moridin

and lanfear about his intentions to go to shayol ghul and kill the dark one,the only

piece of information nobody knew was when rand will go to shayol ghul,so how hard

it was to deduce that rand would enter the pit of doom shortly after his forces surged

thakan'dar valley?

demandred obsession with lews therin was never a problem,his actions in the last battle

were,if he was so hell bent to resolve his enormous inferiority complex during the last

battle why do it in kandor?why not do it in shayol ghul?

let me tell you why,brandon sanderson couldn't let rand kill all the remaining forsaken,

others needed something to do too,so rand was paired with moridin,perrin with lanfear,

egwene with m'hael,graendal kept the channelers in shayol ghul busy and demandred

became a moron who fought three duels and died.(and no,i didn't forget moghedien).

Yes, but Demandred might have thought it was disinformation, or that Rand would intend to go there after the Battle in Kandor.  As for any quality issues, give Brandon Sanderson a break. RJ did very little to limit WOT's growth, and this was the last book; they had to stuff everything in it.I jhave to admit, Taim was a disappointment.

[Sabio]

Demandred didn't think Rand as Rand but thought of him as LTT, and LTT would want to be commanding the forces of light.  So t was logical to assume Rabd was there opposing Demandred, not to mention Mat's skill made Dem sure LTT was there.  Like Moridin and the other forsaken they always thought of what would LTT do or not do when it came to Rand.  It never occurred to them Rand wasn't LTT.  Not to mention Dem was more then likely partially mad from his constant use of the true power since going to Shara.

 

Aiel can be DF's, remember one tried to kill Mat.

[mb]

two issues of this situation seem to be these two questions::

-who would have a motive for the attack?

-who knew Demira would be there?

 

the alliance of the attackers (or of the person who ordered it) to me does not matter.