Mat's memories

[Suttree]

Except we're not really arguing about that, we are arguing the difference between Mat and Rand.

 

I was having a branch off discussion with Damandrad. Mostly  in agreement with what you said here.

 

I do wonder however, do you truly feel that the memories gained post Finns didn't change his personality at all?

[damandred]

 

I think rather you and Mr Ares should be the ones to lay down what does NOT constitute a person and why Rand is not LTT despite him having all his memories, cares and very soul.

That's not how the burden of proof works. It's your claim, so make the case.

 

To be clear I'm of the opinion that there is more to a person than the soul and memories for that matter. I also have word of god on my side in relation to personalities and that in each rebirth "while bearing the same soul they will not be the same person".

Mr Ares was the first to say Rand and LTT were not the same person and Rand himself believes hes LTT so i dont think the burden of poof, falls on me, since the character himself believes what i believe. And you dont have the word of god on it, you have RJ' words talking about people in general, not Rand who is unique.

[mb]

There seems to be at least one change in Mat after he got the memories::  he gains understanding & fluency of the Old Tongue.

before he occasionally spoke a few lines of the tongue and he seemed to not understand those lines.

[Finnssss22]

There seems to be at least one change in Mat after he got the memories::  he gains understanding & fluency of the Old Tongue.

before he occasionally spoke a few lines of the tongue and he seemed to not understand those lines.

 

Except he was speaking the Old Tongue so fluently, he didn't didn't notice the difference when he entered the Doorway in Tear.

[Mr Ares]

 

 

I think rather you and Mr Ares should be the ones to lay down what does NOT constitute a person and why Rand is not LTT despite him having all his memories, cares and very soul.

That's not how the burden of proof works. It's your claim, so make the case.

 

To be clear I'm of the opinion that there is more to a person than the soul and memories for that matter. I also have word of god on my side in relation to personalities and that in each rebirth "while bearing the same soul they will not be the same person".

Mr Ares was the first to say Rand and LTT were not the same person and Rand himself believes hes LTT so i dont think the burden of poof, falls on me, since the character himself believes what i believe. And you dont have the word of god on it, you have RJ' words talking about people in general, not Rand who is unique.

And how is Rand unique? He is a reborn soul, but so is everyone. And he has the memories of a past life in his head, but that's a form of madness and not one unique to Rand. What uniqueness does Rand have that is relevant? Because without that, the Word of God is pretty clear.

[damandred]

 

 

 

 

I think rather you and Mr Ares should be the ones to lay down what does NOT constitute a person and why Rand is not LTT despite him having all his memories, cares and very soul.

That's not how the burden of proof works. It's your claim, so make the case.

 

To be clear I'm of the opinion that there is more to a person than the soul and memories for that matter. I also have word of god on my side in relation to personalities and that in each rebirth "while bearing the same soul they will not be the same person".

Mr Ares was the first to say Rand and LTT were not the same person and Rand himself believes hes LTT so i dont think the burden of poof, falls on me, since the character himself believes what i believe. And you dont have the word of god on it, you have RJ' words talking about people in general, not Rand who is unique.

And how is Rand unique? He is a reborn soul, but so is everyone. And he has the memories of a past life in his head, but that's a form of madness and not one unique to Rand. What uniqueness does Rand have that is relevant? Because without that, the Word of God is pretty clear.

I have It on good authority that he has one nipple bigger than the other.

[Suttree]

So it's your assertion that the cosmology Jordan has cobbled together doesn't apply to the Dragon soul?

[damandred]

No, it is my assertion that the Rand incarnation is unique, being the only rebirth known of a specific person prophercised for a specific job. Plus the only person to regain his past life memories, without desending into termanal madness and can utilize said memories in a positive way.

Is it your assertion that his situation is not unique？

[Suttree]

No, it is my assertion that the Rand incarnation is unique, being the only rebirth known of a specific person prophercised for a specific job.

 

So the cosmology doesn't apply to him is what you're saying. Once again given cyclic time you seem to be making some very strange assumptions about this version of Rand being "unique" when we know that wasn't the case. RJ stated this was just another turning and there was nothing unique about it. It's why those "kill the DO/linear time" theories were always kind of a joke.

 

Also the Rand/Ishy link quote has already been provided. They apparently fight an eternal battle with either one of them going to the other side occasionally. Does the cosmology not apply to Ishy as well?

[Barid Bel Medar]

The topic is dependant on technicalities and how one views the question. It would help a lot if we clarified what constitutes as a 'person'. 

 

Here is my view:

 

Rand and Lews Therin are not one person. They are not one personality. They are one soul. 

 

Similar or not, they are distinct personalities separate from one another. 

 

Rand did not live in the Age of Legends or go mad at the failed Sealing. Nor did Lews Therin receive Rand's injuries. 

 

The only psychological difference between Mat and Rand re: memories is that Rand is aware they are from his previous life - and thus connects them directly with himself on a personal level, whereas most of Mat's memories he knows come from other men who were not connected to him, thus making the disconnect between himself and the memories.

 

In practice, they are exactly the same. Mat's memories come attached with all of the emotion that Rand's do. He remembers and feels the fear of dying in battle, and remembers what it felt like to see Hawkwing's face. It isn't just a slide show of things Mat views - for all intents and purposes, it is as if Mat lived it himself.

 

Again, the only difference being that Mat is consciously aware that they are not his memories, being able to rationalize and not despair like Rand, who thought it was HIMSELF who screwed up in the AoL. 

 

This quote is directly from RJ talking specifically about Rand/LTT. 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Jan 7th, 2003

COT Signing Report - David Funke (Verbatim)

QUESTION

The question is, with Rand and Lews Therin, do they have one soul or two souls in the body?

ROBERT JORDAN

They have one soul with two personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I have cobbled together.

 

Mr. Ares is correct in saying that Rand and Mat's memories are only technically different in the way they are gained. 

Rand's was through the intervention of the Dark One via the Taint madness. Mat via the Finns. 

Having said that - there are always similarities in souls - particularly Rand/LTT. Channeling is of course tied to the soul. Being able to speak to wolves is also a soul trait. So Rand DOES possess a lot of traits Lews Therin possessed. (His ability to sense life, the Dragon being one with the Land, his ability to hold open gateways etc..) Like Birgitte would always be an Archer - both Rand and Lews Therin share similar base soul traits, but they are only similar, not the same person.

They share the same soul and some similarities. They are not two totally different people, but neither are they the same person. 

[damandred]

 

 

No, it is my assertion that the Rand incarnation is unique, being the only rebirth known of a specific person prophercised for a specific job.

So the cosmology doesn't apply to him is what you're saying. Once again given cyclic time you seem to be making some very strange assumptions about this version of Rand being "unique" when we know that wasn't the case. RJ stated this was just another turning and there was nothing unique about it. It's why those "kill the DO/linear time" theories were always kind of a joke.

 

Also the Rand/Ishy link quote has already been provided. They apparently fight an eternal battle with either one of them going to the other side occasionally. Does the cosmology not apply to Ishy as well?

Of course RJ' version of TG is not unique to other turnings of the wheel, that is not what im saying which i believe you know very well. Say rather that he is unique among people of that age or any other age in a single turning of the wheel and when that age comes about again he will be unique again.

 

And you still didnt answer my question, is he not unique？ is the chosen one just a regular joe? Maybe you should answer that, instead of trying to dodge the question with clumsy sophistry, about turnings of the wheel.

[Suttree]

 

 

No, it is my assertion that the Rand incarnation is unique, being the only rebirth known of a specific person prophercised for a specific job.

So the cosmology doesn't apply to him is what you're saying. Once again given cyclic time you seem to be making some very strange assumptions about this version of Rand being "unique" when we know that wasn't the case. RJ stated this was just another turning and there was nothing unique about it. It's why those "kill the DO/linear time" theories were always kind of a joke.

 

Also the Rand/Ishy link quote has already been provided. They apparently fight an eternal battle with either one of them going to the other side occasionally. Does the cosmology not apply to Ishy as well?

Of course RJ' version of TG is not unique to other turnings of the wheel, that is not what im saying which i believe you know very well. Say rather that he is unique among people of that age or any other age in a single turning of the wheel and when that age comes about again he will be unique again.

 

And you still didnt answer my question, is he not unique？ is the chosen one just a regular joe? Maybe you should answer that, instead of trying to dodge the question with clumsy sophistry, about turnings of the wheel.

 

Woah easy Dam. No need for the shrill responses. I've countered your arguments at every step including a number of author quotes to back my case. Meanwhile you've moved the goal posts consistently until now we've arrived at "well the cosmology doesn't apply to this particular soul in this particular turning." You're going to have to do better than that and presenting a plurium interrogationum fallacy doesn't help your cause.

[damandred]

 

 

 

 

No, it is my assertion that the Rand incarnation is unique, being the only rebirth known of a specific person prophercised for a specific job.

So the cosmology doesn't apply to him is what you're saying. Once again given cyclic time you seem to be making some very strange assumptions about this version of Rand being "unique" when we know that wasn't the case. RJ stated this was just another turning and there was nothing unique about it. It's why those "kill the DO/linear time" theories were always kind of a joke.

 

Also the Rand/Ishy link quote has already been provided. They apparently fight an eternal battle with either one of them going to the other side occasionally. Does the cosmology not apply to Ishy as well?

Of course RJ' version of TG is not unique to other turnings of the wheel, that is not what im saying which i believe you know very well. Say rather that he is unique among people of that age or any other age in a single turning of the wheel and when that age comes about again he will be unique again.

 

And you still didnt answer my question, is he not unique？ is the chosen one just a regular joe? Maybe you should answer that, instead of trying to dodge the question with clumsy sophistry, about turnings of the wheel.

Woah easy Dam. No need for the shrill responses. I've countered your arguments at every step including a number of author quotes to back my case. Meanwhile you've moved the goal posts consistently until now we've arrived at "well the cosmology doesn't apply to this particular soul in this particular turning." You're going to have to do better than that and presenting a plurium interrogationum fallacy doesn't help your cause.

Yeah, whatever. You still Haven't answered the question.

[Sabio]

I think it should come down to if Rand thinks he is LTT then he is, whether or not we agree with it doesn't matter since its what Rand believes.  If Rand thinks LTT is a separate person and they both just share the same soul, then that's the way it should be since he believes it.

[mb]

 

There seems to be at least one change in Mat after he got the memories::  he gains understanding & fluency of the Old Tongue.

before he occasionally spoke a few lines of the tongue and he seemed to not understand those lines.

 

Except he was speaking the Old Tongue so fluently, he didn't didn't notice the difference when he entered the Doorway in Tear.

 

some people might consider understanding part of fluency.  In real life, understanding a language seems to come before becoming fluent in it; and people fluent in a language seem to understand what they are saying.

whether or not fluency in the Old Tongue includes understanding the Old Tongue, Mat's understanding of it seemed to come after gaining the memories.

And Mat seemed to use the Old Tongue more frequently after getting the memories than before.

 

other changes I noticed (last night)::

-learning other songs and older versions of "current" songs

-learning at least one other dance

 

Also, I do not recall Mat doing any more pranks after he got the memories.

 

 

Any of those things could indicate personality change.

[jack of shadows]

@mb,

"also,i do not recall mat doing any more pranks after he got the memories".

really?go and tell that to a one  very disgruntled badger.lol.

[Suttree]

really?go and tell that to a one  very disgruntled badger.lol.

 

Ugh seriously, don't remind us. That horrific bit of fanfic is better off forgotten.

 

Brandon Sanderson

I didn't understand Mat. I tried so hard to make him funny, I wrote the HIM out of him.

[jack of shadows]

@suttree,

i am surprised that you even remember the "unforgettable" scene

involving mat,cement-head and a pissed off badger,as i recall,

towers of midnight is your least favorite book in the wheel of time saga.

[Suttree]

@suttree,

i am surprised that you even remember the "unforgettable" scene

 

I did say "don't remind us".

[mb]

@mb,

"also,i do not recall mat doing any more pranks after he got the memories".

really?go and tell that to a one  very disgruntled badger.lol.

last prank I recall was at Baerlon.  and the last before that was the one told about in Chapter 2.  All other pranks I take occurred before the main series.

[Mr Ares]

No, it is my assertion that the Rand incarnation is unique, being the only rebirth known of a specific person prophercised for a specific job. Plus the only person to regain his past life memories, without desending into termanal madness and can utilize said memories in a positive way.

Is it your assertion that his situation is not unique？

Given that the scene that confirms that the memories are a symptom of Rand's madness is also the scene where we are told how to deal with it, I think we can safely say that Rand is not the only person to have gained past life memories and reintegrated them without descending into terminal madness. Either that or Semi is a spectacularly good guesser. So he is not unique in that respect, in universe - even though we, the readers, aren't given another specific example we are told that others have existed. And, again, it is not enough that Rand be unique - his uniqueness must be relevant. You have yet to explain the relevance.

 

 

The topic is dependant on technicalities and how one views the question. It would help a lot if we clarified what constitutes as a 'person'. 

 

Here is my view:

 

Rand and Lews Therin are not one person. They are not one personality. They are one soul. 

 

Similar or not, they are distinct personalities separate from one another. 

 

Rand did not live in the Age of Legends or go mad at the failed Sealing. Nor did Lews Therin receive Rand's injuries. 

 

The only psychological difference between Mat and Rand re: memories is that Rand is aware they are from his previous life - and thus connects them directly with himself on a personal level, whereas most of Mat's memories he knows come from other men who were not connected to him, thus making the disconnect between himself and the memories.

 

In practice, they are exactly the same. Mat's memories come attached with all of the emotion that Rand's do. He remembers and feels the fear of dying in battle, and remembers what it felt like to see Hawkwing's face. It isn't just a slide show of things Mat views - for all intents and purposes, it is as if Mat lived it himself.

 

Again, the only difference being that Mat is consciously aware that they are not his memories, being able to rationalize and not despair like Rand, who thought it was HIMSELF who screwed up in the AoL. 

 

This quote is directly from RJ talking specifically about Rand/LTT. 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Jan 7th, 2003

COT Signing Report - David Funke (Verbatim)

QUESTION

The question is, with Rand and Lews Therin, do they have one soul or two souls in the body?

ROBERT JORDAN

They have one soul with two personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I have cobbled together.

 

Mr. Ares is correct in saying that Rand and Mat's memories are only technically different in the way they are gained. 

Rand's was through the intervention of the Dark One via the Taint madness. Mat via the Finns. 

Having said that - there are always similarities in souls - particularly Rand/LTT. Channeling is of course tied to the soul. Being able to speak to wolves is also a soul trait. So Rand DOES possess a lot of traits Lews Therin possessed. (His ability to sense life, the Dragon being one with the Land, his ability to hold open gateways etc..) Like Birgitte would always be an Archer - both Rand and Lews Therin share similar base soul traits, but they are only similar, not the same person.

They share the same soul and some similarities. They are not two totally different people, but neither are they the same person. 

 

Well said.

 

I think it should come down to if Rand thinks he is LTT then he is, whether or not we agree with it doesn't matter since its what Rand believes.  If Rand thinks LTT is a separate person and they both just share the same soul, then that's the way it should be since he believes it.

Simply believing something is true doesn't make it true. It overlooks the possibility that Rand could simply be wrong. Should we say that if Gawyn believes Rand killed Morgase then he did, whether or not we agree with his opinion? Now, if you're thinking "but we know Morgase was alive", that's exactly my point - we can look to facts outside the viewpoint of the character, and make a determination of the correctness of their opinions based on the evidence rather than just asserting that we should accept an opinion as fact.

[damandred]

@Mr Ares

1) Though we do find out Rand' memories are a result of the taint in the scene with Semi, i gather that all the subjects she came across did desend into termanal madness, and there is absolutely no evidence that anyone else suffering with the past life memories effects of the taint have gone through a VoG moment and fully merged the two personalities within themselves, that is the only case alluded to in the books and there is nothing to indicate, that anything like that has happened in the current turning of the wheel. That imo makes Rand unique.

 

2) While i think Barid Bel is usually very spot on in his observations, i think in this instance he is wrong. The difference between Mat' and Rands memories isnt just that Rand' come from a previous life, another rather big difference is, that were Mats memories are scenes from other mens memories, mostly battles, were as Rand can remember all of LTT' life from childhood to death.

I think the quote from RJ regarding personalities is correct at the time he gave the quote when Rand and LTT were two distinct personalities, but that was pre VoG. After VoG the two personalities had merged, he was not one or the other, he was both, as the told Egwene.

 

3) i think the Gawyn analogy about truth is a bad one. Gawyn chose to believe a rumour about Rand killing his mother. Rand is not some guy in a looney bin thinking hes Napoleon, he regards a past life that he remembers completely and is fully absorbed into his own personality as his own and who is anyone to say different.

[Mr Ares]

@Mr Ares

1) Though we do find out Rand' memories are a result of the taint in the scene with Semi, i gather that all the subjects she came across did desend into termanal madness, and there is absolutely no evidence that anyone else suffering with the past life memories effects of the taint have gone through a VoG moment and fully merged the two personalities within themselves, that is the only case alluded to in the books and there is nothing to indicate, that anything like that has happened in the current turning of the wheel. That imo makes Rand unique.

Except she say that "even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone who heard a real voice." Thus the evidence indicates that for all that it might be a rare occurrence, it did happen - else she would have said always. Where is your evidence to the contrary?

 

2) While i think Barid Bel is usually very spot on in his observations, i think in this instance he is wrong. The difference between Mat' and Rands memories isnt just that Rand' come from a previous life, another rather big difference is, that were Mats memories are scenes from other mens memories, mostly battles, were as Rand can remember all of LTT' life from childhood to death.

I think the quote from RJ regarding personalities is correct at the time he gave the quote when Rand and LTT were two distinct personalities, but that was pre VoG. After VoG the two personalities had merged, he was not one or the other, he was both, as the told Egwene.

Mat only has memories form those men's lives from the point they entered the Doorway/ToG, that's true, but I dare say that with 400 years behind him LTT had probably forgotten a few things about his own past. Mat still has years of continuous memories from various people. Are you saying the crucial difference is childhood memories, which are the only thing Rand would have that Mat wouldn't? And bear in mind, Rand didn't merge with the real LTT, he merged with the one in his head, which is more a fragment.

 

3) i think the Gawyn analogy about truth is a bad one. Gawyn chose to believe a rumour about Rand killing his mother. Rand is not some guy in a looney bin thinking hes Napoleon, he regards a past life that he remembers completely and is fully absorbed into his own personality as his own and who is anyone to say different.

The analogy is a good one, because Rand can still be wrong. And anyone can say different,because anyone can look at the evidence and reach there own conclusions. To say that Rand must be right because it's his opinion is silly. Rand's views speak to his feelings on the matter, not the objective truth of it.

[damandred]

1) to take the word USUALLY as some kind of evidence that transformations like Rand' have occurred before is very thin. Ok though if we are going to be pendantic about wording , she says voices instead of memories, i suppose its possible to hear voices of past lives without the memories, and if so what did she mean by "reintegration" ? And were the people Graendal helped even effected by the taint? They couldnt of of been in the AoL as there was no taint, and it doesn't seem likely that she found any effected by the taint in the exact same way as Rand in the short time she was free in the third age and cured them, never mind several as the quote seems to suggest.

No i think using that one one sentance as proof that the Rand/LTT merger is not unique makes for a very weak argument.

 

2) so Mat has the memories of the men who entered the finnrealm, since they left to the day they died? Do you have any proof of that claim? I am aware that Mat thinks that the finns are in his head, but does he get all of the other mens or just fragments? I know the memories he received were given to him to fill in the blanks in his memory after his sickness, so how many years in total is that? 2? 4? 10? Its a lot less than 400 regardless of how much was forgotten in that time. And Rand' memories came from his soul, which must have retained LTTS memories, though it was the taint that made it possible to remember them, his soul was LTT and after VoG he could access them fully, so i dont know where the fragment comes from.

 

3) objective truth of it? One RJ quote that is pre VoG? I can understand having a different opinion, but i hardly think the evidence supplied can be counted as truth. I think in a subject like this there is no one "objective truth" and is more about opinions and i think Rands is more valid than yours.

[Barid Bel Medar]

@Mr Ares

1) Though we do find out Rand' memories are a result of the taint in the scene with Semi, i gather that all the subjects she came across did desend into termanal madness, and there is absolutely no evidence that anyone else suffering with the past life memories effects of the taint have gone through a VoG moment and fully merged the two personalities within themselves, that is the only case alluded to in the books and there is nothing to indicate, that anything like that has happened in the current turning of the wheel. That imo makes Rand unique.

 

2) While i think Barid Bel is usually very spot on in his observations, i think in this instance he is wrong. The difference between Mat' and Rands memories isnt just that Rand' come from a previous life, another rather big difference is, that were Mats memories are scenes from other mens memories, mostly battles, were as Rand can remember all of LTT' life from childhood to death.

I think the quote from RJ regarding personalities is correct at the time he gave the quote when Rand and LTT were two distinct personalities, but that was pre VoG. After VoG the two personalities had merged, he was not one or the other, he was both, as the told Egwene.

 

3) i think the Gawyn analogy about truth is a bad one. Gawyn chose to believe a rumour about Rand killing his mother. Rand is not some guy in a looney bin thinking hes Napoleon, he regards a past life that he remembers completely and is fully absorbed into his own personality as his own and who is anyone to say different.

 

1. I don't think anyone is saying Rand isn't unique in this. It is possible that all went mad (although Mr. Ares points to there having been some who have experienced the same). Whether or not Rand is the first or only isn't the point. It still doesn't make him and Lews Therin the same person. 

 

2. You are correct that Rand's memories are of a complete life - I was only talking about the way that they were received.

 

3. Well, Rand may not be Gawyn, but he is quite insane - by his own admission post-VoG. He is also arrogant, perhaps much more so than Napoleon But beside the point. Rand DOES have a better understanding than Gawyn's situation, but MR. Ares was just pointing out that believing it is so doesn't make it true, and Rand is wrong multiple times even after VoG in other matters, why not this? 

 

Also, the Egwene scene is not a reliable one to judge. Rand had his own motives, he had to be very careful with what he said, and he was manipulating Egwene. Explaining exactly what had happened was not in his interest. For all intents and purposes, Rand is correct in a way. He has the memories, it was his past life - just tell her he's the same person. However, it's much more complex than that. 

 

When we finally return to Rand's PoV in aMoL, his direct thoughts give us a better indication. Rand does not believe he is the same person as Lews Therin. He believes they are the same soul and he is Lews Therin's re-incarnation. 

 

A few pieces from aMoL 1:

 

Rand regarded his wine. Lews Therin had loved wine. A part of Rand - that distant part, the memories of a man he had been - was displeased at the vintage. 

 

Rand had never tasted sea water. Lews Therin had. Knowing facts like that had greatly disturbed him once. Now he had learned to accept that part of him. 

 

Rand makes the distinction between himself and Lews Therin, that they were two different people. 

 

Rand himself cannot explain the difference - he doesn't have a psych. degree - but he does note it. 

 

 

"He's me,"  Rand said. "And I'm him. But at the same time, I'm not." 

 

This, I see as his distinction between him being Lews Therin's reincarnation, knowing Lews Therin's memories, but knowing at the same time that Rand al'Thor is a separate person within the same soul.  

 

Rand also makes the distinction between Lews Therin and himself clear. 

 

 

I'm going to be a father, he thought, not for the first time. Yes, Lews Therin had had children, and Rand could remember them and his love for them. It was not the same.

 

He, Rand al'Thor, would be a father.