Mat's memories

[Drewcif]

I'm new to DM and am almost finished with the series.  Less than 100 pages left in MoL.  I feel like there a few things missing that I haven't gotten answers to yet.  Where did Mat's memories come from?  Any person in particular?  Is Perrin supposed to be a mythical reincarnation like Rand?  What is the significance of the Red Eagle of Manatheren?  The story kind of leads to unanswered clues but after reviewing the books, no answers.

[mb]

page numbers are vague; each format has a different number of them than the others.

I have not yet read Memory of Light; only skimmed through various parts of it.

 

Mat's memories came from multiple men.  They went through either or both doorways and/or went through the Tower of Ghenjei; and the memories were from the time of exiting.

Mat had thoughts about those things in Knife of Dreams.  Do not remember which chapter.

 

Perrin; are you asking whether he is the reborn of someone or asking if he is similar to a mythological character?  if reborn of someone, I do not recall anywhere telling.  if similarity with a mythological character, a number of readers see similarities with Thor; and for Mat, Odin.

 

There were past threads about those.

 

significance of the Red Eagle; do not recall a thread about that.  not sure if the author intended a significance or not.

the significance (if any) could be different with different readers.

[Sabio]

Mat got the memories from going through the doorway in Rhudiean.  He wanted the holes filled and they were filled with the memories of other men.  By making the bargain they formed some sort of link with Mat, as he was sure they could see everything he could see.  I am guessing since how else would they get a hold of these memories, is they were from people who had visited the tower themselves.  Was never really explained how they were able to get a hold of the memories to stuff into mat. 

[damandred]

I'm new to DM and am almost finished with the series. Less than 100 pages left in MoL. I feel like there a few things missing that I haven't gotten answers to yet. Where did Mat's memories come from? Any person in particular? Is Perrin supposed to be a mythical reincarnation like Rand? What is the significance of the Red Eagle of Manatheren? The story kind of leads to unanswered clues but after reviewing the books, no answers.

As already been said , Mat got his memories of the finns, there was no indication that Mat or Perrin were anybody specific reborn, ie; hero from the last age, but both were mentioned in the prophecies. The significance of the Red Eagle was that Manatherin had a iconic meaning at the time of the books and the raising of its banner could of caused trouble for a lot of rulers who ruled over lands formerly belonging to that nation. Someone raising that banner basically was declaring a intention of resurrecting that ancient country.

[Guest msakyuz]

Keep going, I have finished second reading some months ago :)

As my friends mentioned, Mat got his memories from Finns, specifically Eelfinn. These are some heroes' memories etc from past who has been to Finn realm and Finns nourished with their memories.

In general, all people in WoT universe is a reincarnation of someone, so technically Mat and Perrin are also reincarnation of some people past, but they are not bound to the Horn of Valere, thus one may expect that they are not so heroic before. Nonetheless who knows what happens in the turning of the Wheel of Time

The importance of Red Eagle and so Manetheren is that, they are described as "a thorn on Dark One's feet" in Trolloc Wars. I suppose Dark One has a personel hatred for Manetheren since a massive force is dispatched only to destroy Manetheren. Hoisting the flag of Red Eagle is somewhat a message to the Dark One and its minions.

[Finnssss22]

 

I'm new to DM and am almost finished with the series. Less than 100 pages left in MoL. I feel like there a few things missing that I haven't gotten answers to yet. Where did Mat's memories come from? Any person in particular? Is Perrin supposed to be a mythical reincarnation like Rand? What is the significance of the Red Eagle of Manatheren? The story kind of leads to unanswered clues but after reviewing the books, no answers.

As already been said , Mat got his memories of the finns, there was no indication that Mat or Perrin were anybody specific reborn, ie; hero from the last age, but both were mentioned in the prophecies. The significance of the Red Eagle was that Manatherin had a iconic meaning at the time of the books and the raising of its banner could of caused trouble for a lot of rulers who ruled over lands formerly belonging to that nation. Someone raising that banner basically was declaring a intention of resurrecting that ancient country.

 

 

Incorrect.

There is plenty of evidence to support that Mat is Aemon reborn or at the very least, he is a direct blood descendant of Aemon's.

His memory of leading Manetheren's Heartguard immediately upon waking after his cleansing at the White Tower was before he ever stepped foot in Finnland.

Not to mention he was 100% completely fluent in the Old Tongue by the time he did take his first step into Finnland. Rand couldn't understand a word of it and needed a translator during his trip. Moiraine speaks and understands the Old Tongue but mentions that the dialect was very harsh. Mat's understanding was so smooth, he didn't notice a difference or that he was even speaking it.

 

Mat is of Manetheren one way or another.

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

I've always found this a very curious event. Of the five Two Riversers, Mat's powers are the most subtly foreshadowed in the book.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Unless you count the short exchange between Lan and Perrin about wolves in a much earlier chapter.

KRIT PETTY

I thought that Mat's Old Tongue was a small way of RJ letting you think maybe Mat was the important one, not Rand.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, I think you're right on that count. It was certainly meant to make us think.

LEE DAVIS

The speaking the Old Tongue is from his bloodline though, not his memories in that case, isn't it?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, but it's still foreshadowing. He's the one who does it, not the others.

SLEEPINGHOUR

In The Eye of the World, is Mat remembering the Old Tongue from his own past life or from his ancestors?

TEREZ

Good question. He seems to have confirmed Old Blood for the Old Tongue, but the Aemon memory?

FELIX PAX

That's what my belief is, Aemon. Mat Cauthon is the reborn soul of Aemon. Aemon's Old Tongue.

BRANDON SANDERSON

It isn't made clear. It could be either. The implication is his bloodline.

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Aemon connection is certainly implied strongly.

[Mkelly157]

page numbers are vague; each format has a different number of them than the others.

I have not read Memory of Light; only skimmed through various parts

 

 

 

Not meaning to be rude, but why have you only skimmed parts of MoL and not read it properly?

[damandred]

 

 

 

I'm new to DM and am almost finished with the series. Less than 100 pages left in MoL. I feel like there a few things missing that I haven't gotten answers to yet. Where did Mat's memories come from? Any person in particular? Is Perrin supposed to be a mythical reincarnation like Rand? What is the significance of the Red Eagle of Manatheren? The story kind of leads to unanswered clues but after reviewing the books, no answers.

As already been said , Mat got his memories of the finns, there was no indication that Mat or Perrin were anybody specific reborn, ie; hero from the last age, but both were mentioned in the prophecies. The significance of the Red Eagle was that Manatherin had a iconic meaning at the time of the books and the raising of its banner could of caused trouble for a lot of rulers who ruled over lands formerly belonging to that nation. Someone raising that banner basically was declaring a intention of resurrecting that ancient country.

Incorrect.

There is plenty of evidence to support that Mat is Aemon reborn or at the very least, he is a direct blood descendant of Aemon's.

His memory of leading Manetheren's Heartguard immediately upon waking after his cleansing at the White Tower was before he ever stepped foot in Finnland.

Not to mention he was 100% completely fluent in the Old Tongue by the time he did take his first step into Finnland. Rand couldn't understand a word of it and needed a translator during his trip. Moiraine speaks and understands the Old Tongue but mentions that the dialect was very harsh. Mat's understanding was so smooth, he didn't notice a difference or that he was even speaking it.

 

Mat is of Manetheren one way or another.

BRANDON SANDERSON

I've always found this a very curious event. Of the five Two Riversers, Mat's powers are the most subtly foreshadowed in the book.BRANDON SANDERSON

Unless you count the short exchange between Lan and Perrin about wolves in a much earlier chapter.KRIT PETTY

I thought that Mat's Old Tongue was a small way of RJ letting you think maybe Mat was the important one, not Rand.BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, I think you're right on that count. It was certainly meant to make us think.LEE DAVIS

The speaking the Old Tongue is from his bloodline though, not his memories in that case, isn't it?BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, but it's still foreshadowing. He's the one who does it, not the others.SLEEPINGHOUR

In The Eye of the World, is Mat remembering the Old Tongue from his own past life or from his ancestors?TEREZ

Good question. He seems to have confirmed Old Blood for the Old Tongue, but the Aemon memory?FELIX PAX

That's what my belief is, Aemon. Mat Cauthon is the reborn soul of Aemon. Aemon's Old Tongue.BRANDON SANDERSON

It isn't made clear. It could be either. The implication is his bloodline.BRANDON SANDERSON

The Aemon connection is certainly implied strongly.

Without doubt Mat was at least a lord of Manetheren, but it was never specific who. It may well have been Aemon, but however strongly implied was never confirmed and as such is only speculation.

[Suttree]

Felix Pax sighting in the quote!

[mb]

 

page numbers are vague; each format has a different number of them than the others.

I have not read Memory of Light; only skimmed through various parts

 

 

Not meaning to be rude, but why have you only skimmed parts of MoL and not read it properly?

 

Because I have not reached that book in current time through; am on my third time through the series and am at Crown of Swords.

 

by the way, I meant to say "have not yet read".

[Sabio]

Think it was posted somewhere that rJ had agreed Mat was the descendent of the Manetheren kings but never mentioned he was actually anyone reborn. 

[Drewcif]

At the time of my post, I had all BUT 100 pages left in reading the whole novel.  I had skimmed the earlier length to try and review if my questions had been answered where I might have missed them.  I actually have finished the entire series fully now and really, really wish there were more.  Also, after reading some of these replies, I remembered that Mat was indeed reincarnated after Aemon, or so the suspicion was made in the book.  Furthermore, I also remember that Emonds Field was also named for Aemon.  The survivors of Manetheren escaped into the Mountains of Mist and when they came down, they settled the village of Emonds Field.  This might even have been mentioned in Eye of the World.

[jack of shadows]

when rand told moiraine that he is four centuries old,she replied:

"you may have the memories of a man four centuries old,rand al'thor,but that does not make you ancient.

otherwise,matrim cauthon would be the patriarch of us all."

based on what exactly did she say it?

mat memories are an amalgamation of two different things,his bloodline,like finnssss said,there is a strong

possibility that mat is aemon reborn or a direct blood descendant of the king of manetheren and the

memories he received from his finnland visit.

according to robert jordan,those memories are not from his ancestors,but scraps and bit and pieces of

memories stolen from other men.

back to rand,during his dragonmount epiphany,rand remembered:"he remembered lives,hundreds of them,

thousands of them,stretching to infinity."

so even if it is a memory contest,(according to moiraine),i don't see how mat would be older than rand.

am i missing something?

[Mkelly157]

My understanding of it would be she meant if you add up all the years of memory's he has has it would be greater than rands

[Mr Ares]

when rand told moiraine that he is four centuries old,she replied:

"you may have the memories of a man four centuries old,rand al'thor,but that does not make you ancient.

otherwise,matrim cauthon would be the patriarch of us all."

based on what exactly did she say it?

mat memories are an amalgamation of two different things,his bloodline,like finnssss said,there is a strong

possibility that mat is aemon reborn or a direct blood descendant of the king of manetheren and the

memories he received from his finnland visit.

according to robert jordan,those memories are not from his ancestors,but scraps and bit and pieces of

memories stolen from other men.

back to rand,during his dragonmount epiphany,rand remembered:"he remembered lives,hundreds of them,

thousands of them,stretching to infinity."

so even if it is a memory contest,(according to moiraine),i don't see how mat would be older than rand.

am i missing something?

Rand only briefly remembered lives before LTT. After Dragonmount, he had only his own and LTT's. Note that as you point out, Rand claims to be four hundred years old, not infinitely old. Thus making the contest one of Rand's claimed four centuries against Mat's considerably longer.

[Orderofolde]

I'm new to DM and am almost finished with the series.  Less than 100 pages left in MoL.  I feel like there a few things missing that I haven't gotten answers to yet.  Where did Mat's memories come from?  Any person in particular?  Is Perrin supposed to be a mythical reincarnation like Rand?  What is the significance of the Red Eagle of Manatheren?  The story kind of leads to unanswered clues but after reviewing the books, no answers.

Due to the unusual strength of Mat's Blood even before he went through a doorway, he shouted Manatheren battle cries in Eye of the World, had memories of leading the Heart Guard of Manatheren in the battle before Manatheren fell, and was most likely King Aemon Reborn.  Mat's later memories come from lords and other leaders who fell to Arthur Hawkwing.  Mat has two POV's of this, one just before he gets married when Tuon asks if he remembers Hawkwing's face and the other time well before this when he laments of remembering dying many times.  (Sorry, I'm not good at quoting or knowing exactly where things are by book and chapter.)  While Mat is being healed in Tar Valon, and later when he awakes he has specific memories of leading the Heart Guard of Manatheren.  Later on after leaving the Waste and leading the Cavalry partnered with Talmanes in what would become the Band of the Red Hand Mat still commands in the old style sweeping his ashanderi in the "Horsemen Forward" of the "Horsemen will Advance" motions which has changed very little in thousands of years.

[jack of shadows]

@mr ares,

point taken.

by the way,i didn't turn it into a memory contest,moiraine did!

in my opinion,the situation regarding rand's memories and longevity is

not even remotely similar to mat's,but that's just me,moiraine is entitled

to her own opinions of course.lol.

[Finnssss22]

 

I'm new to DM and am almost finished with the series.  Less than 100 pages left in MoL.  I feel like there a few things missing that I haven't gotten answers to yet.  Where did Mat's memories come from?  Any person in particular?  Is Perrin supposed to be a mythical reincarnation like Rand?  What is the significance of the Red Eagle of Manatheren?  The story kind of leads to unanswered clues but after reviewing the books, no answers.

Due to the unusual strength of Mat's Blood even before he went through a doorway, he shouted Manatheren battle cries in Eye of the World, had memories of leading the Heart Guard of Manatheren in the battle before Manatheren fell, and was most likely King Aemon Reborn.  Mat's later memories come from lords and other leaders who fell to Arthur Hawkwing.  Mat has two POV's of this, one just before he gets married when Tuon asks if he remembers Hawkwing's face and the other time well before this when he laments of remembering dying many times.  (Sorry, I'm not good at quoting or knowing exactly where things are by book and chapter.)  While Mat is being healed in Tar Valon, and later when he awakes he has specific memories of leading the Heart Guard of Manatheren.  Later on after leaving the Waste and leading the Cavalry partnered with Talmanes in what would become the Band of the Red Hand Mat still commands in the old style sweeping his ashanderi in the "Horsemen Forward" of the "Horsemen will Advance" motions which has changed very little in thousands of years.

 

 

The Finn given memories span something like 1700ish years. They span from a few hundred years before the Trolloc Wars until Hawkwing's reign. 

Trolloc Wars lasted about 300 Years and started around 1000AB

Hawkwing's reign lasted until 997FY (2300AB)

Basically from around 600-700AB until 2250AB)

 

Pretty close to 2 out of 3 Mat PoV's involved revealing a different Finn given memory whether it was dancing with a Seafolk woman to patrolling a wall, dieing hundreds of different times, to meeting and fighting against Hawkwing to fighting in thousands of battles, sometimes having multiple memories from the same battle even.

[Mr Ares]

@mr ares,

point taken.

by the way,i didn't turn it into a memory contest,moiraine did!

in my opinion,the situation regarding rand's memories and longevity is

not even remotely similar to mat's,but that's just me,moiraine is entitled

to her own opinions of course.lol.

I don't see that big a difference between Mat's situation and Rand's. They both have the memories of other men in their heads, it's just Mat has memories from more people and they acquired them through different means. So Moiraine is quite right to point out Rand's error in thinking he is 400 years old - for all that they share a soul and some similarities, they are different men. I know Rand feels differently, but his position is just his opinion, something he had to believe in order to stop driving himself insane.

[Finnssss22]

 

@mr ares,

point taken.

by the way,i didn't turn it into a memory contest,moiraine did!

in my opinion,the situation regarding rand's memories and longevity is

not even remotely similar to mat's,but that's just me,moiraine is entitled

to her own opinions of course.lol.

I don't see that big a difference between Mat's situation and Rand's. They both have the memories of other men in their heads, it's just Mat has memories from more people and they acquired them through different means. So Moiraine is quite right to point out Rand's error in thinking he is 400 years old - for all that they share a soul and some similarities, they are different men. I know Rand feels differently, but his position is just his opinion, something he had to believe in order to stop driving himself insane.

 

 

There's a big difference really.

Rand's memories of LTT are fluid, continual and have the emotional investment just like Birgette's memories of herself are. They are not looking through other people's eyes really, just through another version or versions of themselves. Their personalities while slightly different are still essentially the same.

With Mat there is more of them, no continuity, more fragmented, no where close to the same emotional investment as most of his memories are the end result without the emotional buildup. He is definitely looking through others eyes and not his own and their personalities could be and are far from his own.

[damandred]

Also Mats memories are only replacing the ones he lost. Can't remember the exact wording, but aren't they basically just filling in the blanks left in his memory, by the sickness he suffered carrying the dagger? However old those memories may be, he only has 20 or so years worth, were as Rands memories are the wisdom of a fully remembered 4 centuries of life.

[Suttree]

In relation to personalities being "essentially" the same,  Rand speaks of there being not just a difference but a "great one". We also have word of god on this topic.

 

Interview: Jan 7th, 2003

COT Signing Report - David Funke (Verbatim)

Question

The question is, with Rand and Lews Therin, do they have one soul or two souls in the body?

Robert Jordan

They have one soul with two personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I have cobbled together.

[damandred]

The personalities between Rands and LTT may have been different, but post VoG they had merged into one, with all memories and experiences belonging to the post VoG Rand as though they had happened to himself. Which in a way they had.

[Drewcif]

That sounds most accurate.

[Suttree]

The personalities between Rands and LTT may have been different, but post VoG they had merged into one, with all memories and experiences belonging to the post VoG Rand as though they had happened to himself. Which in a way they had.

 

All true, in relation to "personalities" however that Rand quote about how great the difference is comes from ToM.