a question about taim.

[NeverTame]

...What? Rand is effectively an Aielman as far as looks go and Taim is described as very typically Saldaean; black hair, dark eyes, face structure, presumably skin tone. I must be missing something here because they certainly don't physically look alike.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think what mb may be referring to is their stance/aura or projection of themselves is similar. Like how all Aes Sedai have a similar aura about them (even the ones without the ageless face). RJ often made those comparisons, like how Lan and Rand look similar in WH. Not physically similar, but the way they hold themselves as blademasters ready to fight etc..

[NeverTame]

Ah, right, that makes a lot more sense!

 

mb's post initially looked like he was talking about the Shadow thinking Taim might have been the Dragon Reborn... but I see now that it was two separate points.

[Sabio]

Had the shadow thought Taim was really the dragon reborn they probably would of killed him seeing how they were going around killing young men of a certain age.  Also I believe Taim was in his mid 20's so he would of been too old.

[mb]

I do not recall any particular age being applied to those the Shadow killed or attempted to kill.  Some scene in the prequel talked about that.

 

2 possibilities for not killing Taim::

-they never encountering him

-they somehow knowing of his future alliance (or present alliance if he was already a Darkfriend)

 

 

Edit::

The scene I was referring to earlier was in Shadow Rising Chapter 5.

[Sabio]

duplicate post.

[Sabio]

I believe it was in the New Spring where it Moraine discovered "random" accidents happening to boys of a certain age. 

[NeverTame]

Edit::

The scene I was referring to earlier was in Shadow Rising Chapter 5.

 

This part?

 

 

The false Dragon, Mazrim Taim, who was captured in Saldaea, can channel with incredible strength. Perhaps as much as Rand al’Thor, or nearly so, if the reports can be believed. Before he can be brought to Tar Valon and gentled, Liandrin means to break him free. He will be proclaimed as the Dragon Reborn, his name given as Rand al’Thor, and then he will be set to destruction on such a scale as the world has not seen since the War of the Hundred Years.

 

That's the Black sister Joiya speaking. Nothing in this indicates a similarity between Rand and Taim, in a physical sense or the sense Barid suggested.

 

At this point, yeah, some people would know Rand's face, but if Rand were to vanish (he was going off to the Waste next, although nobody knows it yet I suppose) and Taim were to go around calling himself Rand al'Thor -- or better yet, have Aes Sedai calling him Rand al'Thor -- well, people will believe what they're told if it's convincing enough. It would have been very easy for them to paint Rand's name black without any similarity between the two men besides the ability to channel. (And that's assuming they didn't have a Forsaken around to use Mirror of Mists and actually make him look like Rand.)

[Sabio]

I forget was Joiya the sister that was stilled?  I am guessing so because I thought the black sisters had to swear on an oath rod not to betray the shadow?

[NeverTame]

Amico was the stilled one.

 

And whether Joiya was lying about that plan (that's what you're getting at, am I right?) is irrelevant. I was merely pointing out that, assuming such a plan existed, it would have been perfectly viable without any resemblance between Rand and Taim, and that the scene referred does not in fact imply any such resemblance. Which in itself is a rather random topic, buuut mb brought it up earlier, so.

[Sabio]

The question was more of jogging my memory then to any specific post.  I always wondered if she was telling the truth when she revealed the plan and later it came out about the black sisters "forget the exact wording" but not being able to betray the DO or something until the hour of their death.  So it got me thinking that what she said then couldn't of been true.  I agree with your point on Taim and Rand.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah, that was something that had been speculated when later Suian found out the Oaths no longer applied to a stilled person. I'm not sure if anyone asked RJ, or we ever got an answer, but the basic thought was that the one who was stilled was telling the truth, as the others couldn't. 

[mb]

in response to post #33; yes that was the part.  Also her last speech in the chapter.

My thinking was that if Taim was to be passed off as Rand that there was something similar about their looks.

 

in response to post #31; the scene I was talking about was New Spring Chapter 18.

[Kahsm]

 

 

 

 

When I first started on this site, shortly after KoD, there was still at least one person who was still denying Taim was a Darkfriend. The guy even had an explanation for Taim's use of "let the Lord of Chaos rule" at the end of KoD.

 

Ha, Messire Ares, that sounds like an interesting read! Does the current forum go that far back? I may need to have a look through some older Taim threads... (Although I wince at the idea of how much Taimandred I'd have to slog through.)

 

 

Is this what you were referring to Mr Ares?

 

 

 

So you're all convinced Taim is just another darkfriend? Lame. Suppose it makes sense given how ignored he has been as a character after such a grand entrance and a vaulted position.

Well he does say "Let the Lord of Chaos rule again", so that does seem pretty suspicious...But I suppose he could be a nice guy, if we don't count his followers who laugh with evil laughs, and his breaking of the Black Tower. But I suppose that Elaida broke the White Tower and she wasn't a darkfriend...so maybe...just maybe...

 

Exactly, there's plenty of bad/selfish/power-glory hungry dudes who don't have to be friends of the dark. Maybe he hears shit from DF associates. Or maybe he's Verin-ish, where he's technically part of the association, but doesn't see himself that way. Would make the "let the lord of chaos rule thing" be more like a sarcastic, "meh, guess I'm inline with them for now"

 

 

Foolish me, thinking there could of been ONE wildcard character in the whole series who didn't fall neatly into light or dark. Someone who would try to sit on the fence, play both sides for his own purposes. I still believe he should have had more complex motivations than he turned out to have. I think Brandon just wrote him off as another thug and so wrote him that way. His actions and POV in AMOL were pitiful.

 

I will point out my original quote in that sequence where I agree he likely is just another darkfriend, but I was disappointed by that fact. Then someone claimed if he wasn't dark he therefore had to be light, "a nice guy". Which is what I was actually taking offense to. I wasn't REALLY arguing against the evidence.

 

So-called Aiel is much easier to refute. I still think it's silly to think he picked it up from his mentor. It's cause he's from the far NW corner of Randland and he had never seen an Aiel, only heard crazy stories. Which brings me back around to my on-topic comment that Taim was recruited late. Probably offered things in order for performing certain tasks without even knowing who was offering for awhile. I like that thought, cause then I can blame Sanderson for writting him off as an interesting character.

[Mr Ares]

 

 

 

 

 

When I first started on this site, shortly after KoD, there was still at least one person who was still denying Taim was a Darkfriend. The guy even had an explanation for Taim's use of "let the Lord of Chaos rule" at the end of KoD.

 

Ha, Messire Ares, that sounds like an interesting read! Does the current forum go that far back? I may need to have a look through some older Taim threads... (Although I wince at the idea of how much Taimandred I'd have to slog through.)

 

 

Is this what you were referring to Mr Ares?

 

 

 

So you're all convinced Taim is just another darkfriend? Lame. Suppose it makes sense given how ignored he has been as a character after such a grand entrance and a vaulted position.

Well he does say "Let the Lord of Chaos rule again", so that does seem pretty suspicious...But I suppose he could be a nice guy, if we don't count his followers who laugh with evil laughs, and his breaking of the Black Tower. But I suppose that Elaida broke the White Tower and she wasn't a darkfriend...so maybe...just maybe...

 

Exactly, there's plenty of bad/selfish/power-glory hungry dudes who don't have to be friends of the dark. Maybe he hears shit from DF associates. Or maybe he's Verin-ish, where he's technically part of the association, but doesn't see himself that way. Would make the "let the lord of chaos rule thing" be more like a sarcastic, "meh, guess I'm inline with them for now"

 

 

Foolish me, thinking there could of been ONE wildcard character in the whole series who didn't fall neatly into light or dark. Someone who would try to sit on the fence, play both sides for his own purposes. I still believe he should have had more complex motivations than he turned out to have. I think Brandon just wrote him off as another thug and so wrote him that way. His actions and POV in AMOL were pitiful.

 

I will point out my original quote in that sequence where I agree he likely is just another darkfriend, but I was disappointed by that fact. Then someone claimed if he wasn't dark he therefore had to be light, "a nice guy". Which is what I was actually taking offense to. I wasn't REALLY arguing against the evidence.

 

So-called Aiel is much easier to refute. I still think it's silly to think he picked it up from his mentor. It's cause he's from the far NW corner of Randland and he had never seen an Aiel, only heard crazy stories. Which brings me back around to my on-topic comment that Taim was recruited late. Probably offered things in order for performing certain tasks without even knowing who was offering for awhile. I like that thought, cause then I can blame Sanderson for writting him off as an interesting character.

 

No, what I'm referring to is years older than that - I joined the site back in 06. The argument put forward was that "let the Lord of Chaos rule" was from the Feast of Fools (which you can read about in the BWB). Pevara had never heard that "old saying" because there are a number of regional variations, and so that was one she hadn't come across before. The Asha'man laughing after he says it are actually laughing at Taim - he's the poor fool they've named Lord of Chaos, which is not a sort after position. He's a dupe, being used by the Shadow but not actually a Darkfriend.

[udbabor520]

Yeah, that was something that had been speculated when later Suian found out the Oaths no longer applied to a stilled person. I'm not sure if anyone asked RJ, or we ever got an answer, but the basic thought was that the one who was stilled was telling the truth, as the others couldn't. 

 

An interesting question (and answer).

 

Question: Quoting from Tamra in new spring, 'You will tell no one about this, not for any reason, if necessary lie, even to a sister, Gitara died without speaking, do you understand me.' How is it that Tamra can tell Moiraine and Siuan that Gitara died without speaking, when she knows full well that she did speak.

 

Jordan: It's simple. It is part of her instructions. There are a lot, thousands of loop holes, about that thou will speak no word that is not true. This is part of her instructions, she is telling them what they are to say. She is not saying something she believes, and thus she was able to say it.

 

[Sabio]

So if I am understanding it correctly, if you are bound by the 3 oaths I can tell you to lie but Tamara herself would not of been able to say Gitara hadn't spoken.  Which she more then likely spoke everything when the BA put her to the question.

[udbabor520]

Sabio, this is the key:

 

She is not saying something she believes, and thus she was able to say it.

 

[damandred]

 

Sabio, this is the key:

 

She is not saying something she believes, and thus she was able to say it.

so shes saying something she doesnt believe? i pretty sure thats the definition of a lie.

[NeverTame]

What they mean is Tamra isn't stating the thing as something she believes. She's not saying "Gitara died without speaking." She's saying "you two must tell everyone that Gitara died without speaking." Tamra isn't lying, she's ordering others to do so.

[damandred]

im not sure, she couldnt say her dress was blue if she was wearing a red one, no matter the context. She said straight out " Gitara died without speaking". Looks a bit of a gaff to me.

[Sabio]

I think I understand this more, Tamara might have a red dress on but she could tell someone to say you will say my dress is green unless they had also sworn the 3 oaths.  But since Siaun and Moraine were just Accepted they could freely lie.  The question is after they had become full Aes Sedai would they still be able to say Gitara hadn't spoken before dying?  Same with Moraine when she was using an Alias she never said my name is Sally, she basically said you can call me Sally.  So she didn't technically lie.  But again another Aes Sedai might interpret the oath a lot stricter so another Aes Sedai might not be able to command another to lie.  Tamara couldn't walk around saying Gitara didn't say anything since it a lie, but saying if anyone asks you must say this is fine since she herself isn't telling a lie.

[Suttree]

im not sure, she couldnt say her dress was blue if she was wearing a red one, no matter the context. She said straight out " Gitara died without speaking". Looks a bit of a gaff to me.

Not sure what the hang up is here? She was giving an order. It's pretty cut and dry.

[Sabio]

@Damandred, I understand where you are coming from since in some ways telling someone to lie does sort of skirt lying yourself since you are making someone tell a lie.  Which is why I could see an Aes Sedai who take that oath very strictly might not be able even tell someone else to lie. where others like Moraine and Tamara see it as being more loosely interpreted.  In some ways the loophole is needed since for example the Whitecloaks could just walk up to every woman in Amadica and ask are you an Aes Sedai?  The three oaths would of forced them to admit yes and then they would be executed.  So an Aes Sedai I could see getting around that by replying you could say I am not an Aes Sedai.  She didn't lie.

[NeverTame]

Okay, I'm not a mod but this is kind of getting off the original topic and there are other threads on the Three Oaths, for example here. So if I could direct you gentlemen, ladies, and others in that direction.