[Advanced] Red Wedding Mafia - Post Game, MakersMark

[Nolder]

Verbalina: Haven't been able to get much of a read out of their posts,, based ourely on meta I have a slightly bad gut feel. But I'll need to see more to get a proper read. Null.

Considering they only have 23 posts combined I'm curious with the meta/bad gut feel is based on.

I mean they've said so little it must have been something specific right?

[michellem]

The fact that they've said so little is why I feel wary of them, Nolder. I would have expected some more proper gameplay from either by now. Thus, bad meta gut feel.

[Nynaeve]

NyanKat: Don't like Nyn not commenting on anything else going on when she came back. But essentially null.

 

 

I didn't? Weird. Could have sworn I have.

 

 

Now I'm gonna have serious thoughts all day.

 

 

 

 

Nyn

[Nynaeve]

The fact that they've said so little is why I feel wary of them, Nolder. I would have expected some more proper gameplay from either by now. Thus, bad meta gut feel.

 

I don't think I've played with Tina before, but Verbal is always relatively quiet on serious stuff on day one. He usually starts spewing his nonsense from day two onward. So I don't really see why that seems odd to you.

 

 

 

Nyn

[Verbal32]

Sorry folks, was super busy yesterday, and too tired after getting home to check back in.  I'll catch up today for sure (have about 20 pages to read) and jump back in.

[Nolder]

Sorry folks, was super busy yesterday, and too tired after getting home to check back in.  I'll catch up today for sure (have about 20 pages to read) and jump back in.

99% of it is spam or walls of text. Have fun.

[WWWwombat]

Like the more recent posts from Mishtress, but their case on me is still terribad.  Tress still fails to explain why any of the stuff I did was scummy.  As for Despo, he's been woefully inactive and that's not much to base a read on.

 

Also, I wasn't "nudging" competing trains on you and Red, I was straight up suggesting it.  People were questioning Mish but not really doing much else, and I saw Red as scummy, so it was a good way to get things going.

[michellem]

Yean and then you went along with Cloud's awful changing stories  "case" on me. Without even bothering going back to see if he was showing it correctly or anything.

 

Des hasn't just been inactive. When he was active, he deviated extremely far from his meta. That will make me react in a negative way towards reading him.

[Tommyrod]

Mynd, other people have touched on this, but your hydra assassination plan is no better than rand. I really don't know what you were thinking.

[Yates]

Unless her playstyle has changed since I last played tummy sticks with her, Red isn't one to bluff a PR if she is Mafia.  She's more about putting others on the offensive.  Having said this, I wouldn't put it past her to do so as mafia if she were about to be lynched, just to see who counterclaims.

 

Here is the thing, if we are wrong about Red and she is indeed a BG, we could lose a valuable role and the scum can experience relief.

What - specifically - makes gives you cause to believe her role claim is legit? Or, do you simply believe all claims? And also, how do you propose Red confirms her role? Challenging question, isn't it? That's why it's a premium scum fake claim.

 

If we let Red live today and no one other than the scum night kill ends up dead, then Lucy has some splainin to do.

Guess I'm not following what you are saying here. There's no scenario where night actions will resolve Red's alignment that doesn't end in Red's death.

 

Sure, there is the chance that she might kill another townie, but I trust Town Red's scumhunting skills.   Put a gun in her hand and you've got Black Widow.   I can see why the mafia are scared of her in this game.

You do?? Wow. Because I'm not seeing those skills on display. Like - at all.

[Yates]

What theme do you think would better suit a Hydra?

Avengers!

 

[Tommyrod]

Red still hasn't responded directly to me, so I'm interpreting that as a tactical retreat.

[Nynaeve]

Mynd, other people have touched on this, but your hydra assassination plan is no better than rand. I really don't know what you were thinking.

 

Knowing him, he's prolly gauging reactions :P

 

 

 

 

Nyn

[Yates]

 

I don't really have a huge issue with hydras in general.

I just think it's really stupid for a GOT/Red Wedding theme.

I'm all about theme and hydras just don't fit.

Captain america! HYDRA!

 

Beat me to it. I like Avengers better, though. More characters. Plus - I have a bromance with Coulson.

[dawnflower8]

I think Hydras could work in any theme. I don't understand why people keep complaining about them.

[Yates]

I'd be less willing to vote Red as I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt over her claim for today.

For how long are you willing to give this "benefit of the doubt?" Just until she gets night killed?

[Yates]

I think Hydras could work in any theme. I don't understand why people keep complaining about them.

You are the reason I have to reign in my language and play. I'm not sure how I feel about that yet.

 

*Yates tussels Dawn's hair*

 

Now run along you little scamp, and have fun in school!

[Tommyrod]

Ok here is Tress.

Now to address your reads. At the first glance you are hinging everything on Desbat.

 

Now according to your post Wombat is scummy since he did something and ddoes the opposite. Now I don't agree with 2 of the things here. After Mish,s initial flailing she jumps on my OP as scummy. Wombat comes in here and questions that judgement.

If I remember correctly, what wombat calls out on Cloud is that he says the pressure struck a nerve. Wombat says here that Mish is known to be an emotinal player which is then agreed upon.

 

Mish continued to be twitchy and tries to redirect attention away which results in her vote.

 

So the soft defense and then sheeping hasn't occured the way I look it.

 

Now Dawn's noob pass. Its true that she hss been acting in an unconcerned manner. I would like to have Dawn say something in relation to what has happened.

 

But just that one thing is not IMO complete enough to call someone scummy

Is X's scrit usually awkward like this?

[Nynaeve]

*Yates tussels Dawn's hair*

 

Now run along you little scamp, and have fun in school!

 

 

lmfao

 

 

 

Nyn

[Nynaeve]

And I have no idea. Never played with Xthrax before.

 

 

 

 

Nyn

[Nolder]

 

 

I don't really have a huge issue with hydras in general.

I just think it's really stupid for a GOT/Red Wedding theme.

I'm all about theme and hydras just don't fit.

Captain america! HYDRA!

 

Beat me to it. I like Avengers better, though. More characters. Plus - I have a bromance with Coulson.

 

http://www.myndjack.com/forums/index.php?topic=7415.0

[Tommyrod]

Whew. Caught up.

 

Need a ciggi :P

 

 

Red has some good qualities and some less desirable ones. Right now it just feels like she's being stubborn. Annoyingly so. But stubborn none of the less. Paired with her playing style and claim I rather see more of her before I decide. For now I feel pretty good about my vote on Mish. I know she's known for being a nervous wreck. But she's been too frantic about pointing the heat elsewhere and allowing herself to be inconsistent in the process. Tress can do all the damage control she wants.... but that's one of the disadvantages of being a hydra. Your partner takes you down with him.

 

 

Can you tell me more about Red and your perception of her usual play? What I've seen so far is confusion, myopia, reality twisting, and pure hypocrisy. Feel like you've got a double standard regarding Red and Mish. Both players have been engaging in a bit of whyme=fryme. If anything I'd say Mish looks better than Red, not the other way around. Tress's post explaining Mish's behavior makes sense to me. 

[Hallia]

She's normally a selfproclaimed bulldog. She latches onto something and it's really hard for her to let go. That might be where the stubborn Nyn is seeing is coming from

[Tommyrod]

Lemme start here.

 

I'mma be Captain Obvoius and tell you I'm not inside Mish's head and we don't discuss everything we post in the QT before we say it.  However, I understand her as a player pretty well, and know a good amount about what her life is like and how it affects her playing. Here's the timeline and how I interpret it.

 

First post: She says she was about to complain about having to catch up on 12 pages but sees that everyone is still joking so she posts a joke pic herself.

 

Second post: About half an hour later - responds to Red's meme about complaining about catching up by noting that it's easier to catch up on 12 pages of jokes than serious play right before bedtime

 

Obviously she's had time to scan through the thread and see if there's any serious gameplay that stands out to her - next post is just a few minutes later.

 

Third post: Picks out something that stands out to her - X's intro post - and votes X.  This reads to me like an attempt to find something to start serious gameplay - I'mma go on a little sidetrack here about gamestarter actions, because I've done a lot of thinking about the subject.

 

My thought is that there are basically two methods people use to try to kickstart a game into serious mode.  First is doing something obvious - maybe slightly scummy or even overtly scummy - to draw attention to yourself (i.e. vote someone with no reasoning, claim vanilla town with no provocation, or even claim mafia out of the blue).  You get reactions, you probably get voted, you take note of reactions and probably find something worthwhile to build a train on in the process, and the game moves on.   I see a lot of this kind of action from Darthe, occasionally Wombat, and in this game's example, Yates.

 

Second gamestarter type is the Mountain -> Molehill type, where you nitpick all the fluff posts to find something, usually incredibly minor, as a reason to FOS, vote, or full-on case someone.  You watch for people bandwagoning or building on that case, you watch for people defending that person, and you probably end up abandoning that original case because it was truly nonsense in the first place, but by that point it's generated decent discussion.  Mynd and Red are pretty much masters of this... Mish's vote on X is a smaller example of such an attempt IMO, and didn't get a lot of traction because it was followed up pretty much right away by Mynd and Red using Mish's vote as a much more effective gamestarter.

 

Being on the receiving end of one of those mountain/molehill cases is frustrating as hell, if ya didn't know.  As I said, I've spent a lot of time contemplating kickstart behavior and it's pretty much gotten me to the point where I don't sweat it because I see where they're going with it, but Mynd and Red haven't played much in a good long time (and nobody else does it quite to their extent) and Mish tends to let her frustration bleed into the game more easily.

 

Which is obvious in her fourth post:  She comes in, makes 3 posts, and is suddenly being grilled about her choice of wording.  She tries to lay out the sequence of events.  She's tired and starting to get annoyed. 

 

Fifth post is nearly an hour and a half after she popped in saying she was getting ready to go to bed, and the frustration is obvious.  Sometimes all you can do is roll your eyes.  

 

Sixth post is now two hours after the first statement of her intention to catch up on the thread before she goes to bed, and she's ready to let it go and call it a night, but not before Mynd appears to suggest that she was somehow dishonest in her representation of her intentions to go to bed.   At this point in the QT, I mention how I'm amused that I've been posting and joking around the whole time without anyone saying a word, but she makes one post and suddenly she has Mynd and Red grilling her. She starts thinking that maybe people have forgotten that we share a slot, so she decides if people are still giving her a hard time when she gets up in the morning, she'll try to remind them.  I give her a little pep talk about the Red/Mynd game starter meta.

 

Next post after wake-up time: she's a bit disappointed at the amount of off-topic fluff that was continuing after a few solid game kickstarters.  Notes she's suspicious at Despo being off meta.  Explains to Wombat what she meant by her reason for the Xthrax vote.  Asks Cloud to outline exactly how she changed her story because it's a very vague accusation.  Decides that since people are still pressuring her for little to no reason and nobody seems to find me suspicious, it's time to remind them that we're both part of the same hydra.

 

After people clarify that they haven't said anything about me because I've been a slacker and haven't said anything game related yet, she reiterates her point and tries to let it drop.

 

Comes back with a serious response to several points Tommy made attempting to address his questions, including why she hadn't followed up on her original vote of Xthrax, why she expected people to take my play into account in judging our slot, her reads on Dawn, Mynd, Red, and expanding on her comment about Despo being off meta.

 

Last post in response to another Tommy question confirming her reads on Red and Mynd.

 

After this she advised me in the QT she was going to step away from the game because of an outside issue that put her in a bad mood and she didn't want to let it affect the game. There's this kind of spiral that happens when an emotional person lets emotion bleed into a game where people pounce on it and call it scummy, which just makes you more emotional.  Nobody needs that kind of thing to sidetrack the game. I'm guessing she's sleeping now and we'll probably hear from her again in a few hours.

 

My jumping in this morning with my list of reads wasn't timed and calculated as damage control.  As I said before, I'm not all that wound up about the possibility of being lynched today.  We win with town whether or not we live through day 1, and if our death helps in any way to solve the game, that's worth it.  My intent is to get my thoughts out there to help with the game solving bit, regardless.  If Mynd hadn't specifically asked for it, I wouldn't have spent any time at all defending the other half of my slot. 

 

I'd actually planned to post my thoughts with quotes and whatnot last night, well before people started calling me out as not contributing anything game related, but just got too exhausted to form coherent thoughts so I figured I'd get up early and do it today.  My computer monitor dying a slow painful death, plus my laptop requiring updates for my antivirus, Java, and Windows slowed me down to where I couldn't put in the time I intended so I threw a partial list of mostly gut impressions into the QT so I could reference it and update it later, then copy/pasted it here.

 

Now, it's going on midnight and if I was smart I'd be going to bed, but I promised I'd expand on my quick and dirty reads, so I'll do that a bit before I collapse.

 

I'm awarding some town points for this post, because I don't see how it helps a scum agenda other than trying to get Mish clear, but I think the scum approach there would be to attack someone else rather than try to show how pure Mish's thinking is. Basically it highlights a belief in that innocence, which makes me think that innocence actually exists, meaning they should be town. I bolded a few example lines that I think would be difficult to think to fake as scum. 

[Tommyrod]

From a strength of gameplay perspective, I'd rather keep Mish around in case she is town. I'm not as familiar with Tress but I believe she's a good player too. I'm not sure if "don't lynch strong players on D1 just in case they're having a bad day / let the cops sort them out" is a popular tactic here like it is on 2+2, but I prefer to avoid lynching players on D1 who are known for being strong townies and lynch from the scummy distractions instead.