The Min Problem

[cloglord]

This post assumes that you believe that Rand will survive the LB, fake his death, and go live with his women. The problem I have is this. Why would RJ let Elayne and Avhienda live full long channeler lives with Rand, but let Min die of old age 900 years before the other? It lacks the sense of balance and justice that RJ manages to fit into the rest of his writing, I think. I have never been able to square this in my mind, until a few minutes ago I had a thought. A thought, that prompted me to start this thread.

 

What if Min dies a heroic death and is bound to the wheel? Maybe she already is? Wouldn't it swing the inequity in her favor if Elayne and Avhi get Rand for the last 900 years of his life, and then Min gets him for the rest of eternity?

 

Or am I looking to right a wrong, that simply doesn't need righting?

[rd2000]

The quality of the life you live, the love you give and recieve cannot be measured in years. Min and Rand might both die in the next book. The love they shared so far might be enough for a lifetime for either.

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

I can't even begin to speculate how RJ will wrap this up in a semi-satisfactory way. I am just going to sit back and watch.

 

Or not, if someone offers me $1,000,000

[Beowolf]

I thought Rand was supposed to die at the last battle? Unless you're saying Lews Therin dies, which I don't find as likely. Ironically enough, Min was the one who said one of them must die. :D

[trakand01]

I know exactly what is going to happen with this - Rand will fake his death to all his women as well, and come live with me ;D

[RobertAlexWillis]

I would be flabergasted if Jordan altered the WoT reality just to be "fair" to Min. That would really, really suck.

 

Sometimes the people you love die.

[Myyrth]

Even if they both lived through the LB, Rand is already so ridiculously scared and wounded. He'll most certiantly be even more beaten up after the LB.

 

I doubt he'll live the full life time of a Channeler even if they are able to cleanse the tainted wounds.

[SBoydW]

Rand's gonna bite in the LB. So he definatley won't live the "normal" channelers life.

[gaishain]

Well... If you think about it the majority of the series hasn't really been 'fair' to Elayne and Aviendha in terms of equal time with Rand. Sense what book 6... Min and Rand have been together? Rand has hardly seen Aviendha sense she went to Elayne for ji'e'toh. Rand only saw Elayne once after they were together in Tear and that was when she got prego... after that she hasn't seen Rand. Min has been at his hip the whole time. And although the prophecies hint at him living there is no guarantee that Rand or any of them for that matter will live after TG. If you want to talk about equal quality time.... I personally would like to see them all together.

[Narg]

min has him all to herself right now. min will just get him for the first hundred years then after avienda and elayne have their hundred years rand can get sum new chicks.

[cloglord]

Just a quick thought.

 

I find it pretty funny that the same people that assume that Rand has to die because the prophecies hint that he will, refuse to believe that the Horn of Valere will end up in Illian when everything seems to indicate that it will.

 

There is not a single prophecy, viewing, or dream that says that Rand will die durin TG, yet everyone thinks that he will. Everyone in randland assumes that the horn will end up in Illian, but because it isn't in the prophecies nobody, but me, thinks it will.

 

As for Min, the first sentence in my post was that it assumed that Rand and his ladies live, if you don't believe that, fine, I'm not terribly interested in arguing the point. I suppose if we want to have that discussion though, I'm game.

[rd2000]

"The Dragon's blood on the rocks of Shayol Gul" seems a little indicative of the possiblility of death Clog.

 

You contradict yourself in your post. You say not one dream, viewing or prophecy says he will die in TG, yet just before that say the prophecies hint that he will die.

 

Personally, I don't know if Rand will die in the last battle or not. I plan to Read and Find Out. Conjecturing on the myriad of possiblities and outcomes seems futile.

[Mat is the Boss]

That the Finn said "To live you must die" to answer how he can survive the Last Battle, proves that Rand will die at the Last Battle. The only thing in question is whether he will live after Tarmon Gaidon.

[Safia al-Maaz]

To rd2000: Yes, that part of the profecy it idicative, but it could also mean he just bleeds (I don't presonally believe this, but that's not the point). Or it could mean someone related to him dies or bleeds (even though I'm sure he's going to end up bleeding at some point. I mean really, what's a battle without blood?)

 

As to the original idea, I'm hoping they all end up together after TG, and all live long lives. Especially since Rand will be crushed when Min eventually does die, even if he does have Elayne and Avienda. He's closest to Min, even if he does love all three of them the same. Anyway, I know the idea that there will be no channeling after TG has been tossed around, though I'm not quite sure I agree with that... but that would solve the problem of them living different lengths of time, wouldn't it?

[algspkr]

Why do both sides of the "Will Rand live?" debate ignore Nicola's foretelling: "He who was dead, yet lives." (or something like that)?

 

Foretelling is never wrong, so Rand will die, and then he will be alive.

[Luckers]

Actually what it says is that Rand will be both dead and alive at the same time. He is dead, yet he lives. It is present, both are occuring, not one then the other.

 

Just a quick thought.

 

I find it pretty funny that the same people that assume that Rand has to die because the prophecies hint that he will, refuse to believe that the Horn of Valere will end up in Illian when everything seems to indicate that it will.

 

Amongst other things we have only second hand sources on these supposed 'prophecies of the horn'.

 

Why would RJ let Elayne and Avhienda live full long channeler lives with Rand, but let Min die of old age 900 years before the other?

 

It's not 900 years. The longest a channeler can live is 750 years, and that was in the age of legends where the average lifespan was 200 years. Vased on the Kin it seems unlikely that channelers see much beyond 600 years.

[Safia al-Maaz]

That is still a long time compared to average life spans.

[cloglord]

R2D2000 I did not contradict myself. The point was that several people assume that Rand must die based on a series of prophecies, dreams, and viewings that seem indicative, but do not come out and say it. Yet those same people refuse to even consider the possibility that the Horn of Valere will end up in Illian, based on similar indications that it will.

 

Before I get the flaming rebuttal, I know that the indicators of Rand's death are based in prophecy, and the indicators of the Horn's final destination are not. However, there are strong indicators within the writing that I believe to be similarly strong indicators.

 

BTW Luckers what is a prophecy if it is not a second hand source? The inconsistency between the seanchan and Randland versions of the Prophecies of the Dragon should be proof enough of the fallibility of the prophecies we have to work with. Every version of the prophecies of the dragon that we can reference from the books is at least a translated version, and often those translations are quoted by a third person.

[Tea with the Dark One]

Rand's three ladies represent the primary reasons people in this type of society marry: noble bloodlines, tribal bloodlines, and companionship. Elayne fulfills the need to continuation of the noble bloodline. Aviendha is a continuing connection to his people. Min is his truest companion- his best friend that will sleep with him. By that rationale it seems equitable to me that Min gets the lion's share of his attention.

 

What doesn't seem fair to me is the relative unbalance between the quality of life that Lews Therin had versus that of Rand. It seems Lews Therin got to enjoy his Lord-of-the-Morningness before the war of power, what with a fancy castle and a thriving family to slaughter, but Rand gets the snot beat out of him from day one to TG. This causes me to wonder if the time from LTT's death to TG is one complete cycle of the Wheel, or perhaps only half a cycle. But maybe that's a discussion for another time.

[Magicana]

R2D2000 I did not contradict myself. The point was that several people assume that Rand must die based on a series of prophecies' date=' dreams, and viewings that seem indicative, but do not come out and say it. Yet those same people refuse to even consider the possibility that the Horn of Valere will end up in Illian, based on similar indications that it will.

 

Before I get the flaming rebuttal, I know that the indicators of Rand's death are based in prophecy, and the indicators of the Horn's final destination are not. However, there are strong indicators within the writing that I believe to be similarly strong indicators.

 

BTW Luckers what is a prophecy if it is not a second hand source? The inconsistency between the seanchan and Randland versions of the Prophecies of the Dragon should be proof enough of the fallibility of the prophecies we have to work with. Every version of the prophecies of the dragon that we can reference from the books is at least a translated version, and often those translations are quoted by a third person.[/quote']

 

The evidence indicates that the Seanchan copies of the prophecy were tained by Ishmael, who "Sealed one doom and one yet to come". The first doom was that there was no son to take over the Empire of Hawkwing (So it disintegrated), and the second is to have the Seanchan try and make Rand kneel to the Crystal Throne (Which he would never do, driving a wedge between him and the Seanchan).

[RobertAlexWillis]

R2D2000 I did not contradict myself. The point was that several people assume that Rand must die based on a series of prophecies, dreams, and viewings that seem indicative, but do not come out and say it. Yet those same people refuse to even consider the possibility that the Horn of Valere will end up in Illian, based on similar indications that it will.

 

Min's viewing: "Alivia will help you die"

 

Aelfinn answer: "To live you must die"

 

Nicola's Foretelling: "He who was dead yet lives"

 

There are at least three Rand prophecies/viewings that say right out "You're gonna die". Those combine with other textual clues like "his blood will be shed" etc.

 

No prophecy or viewing says "the Horn goes to Illian." Frankly, I don't even see it implied in prophecy. Its just a common misconception based on the fact that they have a Horn party every couple hundred years.

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

Aelfinn answer: "To live you must die"

 

Nicola's Foretelling: "He who was dead yet lives"

 

There are at least three Rand prophecies/viewings that say right out "You're gonna die".

 

Has it been discussed that the Aelfinn answer says that in order to LIVE he must die. As in... if he dies' date=' he then gets to live.

 

And Nicola's Foretelling says he who WAS dead, but is now living?

 

The 'blood on the rocks' snippet is vague enough to go either way.[/color']

[RobertAlexWillis]

Has it been discussed that the Aelfinn answer says that in order to LIVE he must die. As in... if he dies, he then gets to live.

 

Well, its in order to win Tarmon Gai'don and live that he must die. So, the death is clearly in the future at that point, and his death is involved in the victory at Tarmon Gai'don.

 

And Nicola's Foretelling says he who WAS dead, but is now living?

 

Actually, Luckers' quote is correct, I misquoted it. It says, "He who is dead yet lives." (Lord of Chaos chapter 14, I checked multiple sources to make sure it isn't a typo) The use of the present tense "is" makes this statement a little more confusing, but it may refer to the transition moment (which seems to be facilitated by Rand's harem on the boat). Of course, Luckers will say it means Rand's body dies and he lives on in Moridin's ... and who knows, maybe he's right. The phrasing doesn't eliminate the possibility of a sequential death and resurrection, but it certainly opens the door to other possibilities.

 

In any case, the living (after or concurrent with the dying) is in a post Tarmon Gai'don timeframe.

 

The 'blood on the rocks' snippet is vague enough to go either way.

 

I threw in Min's viewing to make it three prophetic statements that actually use the word "die" or "dead". This is to show that while snippets like "his blood on the rocks" are inconclusive by themselves, in the context provided by the other prophetic statements, they become pretty darn clear. At the very least, the body Rand is in now will die.

[Hero of Satsuma]

It doesn't matter, none of them will live to be 900 anyway.

 

When Rand seals the bore anew, it will completely seal away the true source from which the one power is taken. After Rand seals the bore, no one in Randland will be able to channel anymore.

 

Without the ability to channel, life spans will be greatly shortened.

[Bob T Dwarf]

"He who is dead, yet lives."

 

I agree. It's an interesting turn-of-phrase.

 

Part of the problem we have whenever discussing Rand, prophesies, viewings, foretellings, etal - is, what part pertains to Rand, what part pertains to LTT, and what part pertains to the Rand/LTT amalgam?

 

Only Rand, ( and we readers ) know about LTT. All of the characters know only about Rand. Thus, they would interpret anything they saw having to do with the Dragon as pertaining only to Rand, and present it in that fashion, being limited in their interpretation by their ignorance of LTT's presence.

 

"He who is dead, yet lives." Sounds like LTT to me.