2nd most powerful Sangrael a man can use?

[mb]

Some scene called that weave "Finder".  the Finder weave seems to be more of a tracking weave.

though tracking weaves could probably be considered a kind of locator weaves.

 

The weave I mentioned; I recall somewhere calling it "Delving".

Though that name was also applied to another weave; relates to the heath status of others.

[wotfan4472]

The main statues were finished, but the access keys were completed immediately before the razing of the Hall of the Servants. The Light had only enough time to hide them. The attack on Shayol Ghoul was a few days after the razing. The access keys were sent for, but were never recovered until the Breaking started, and Lews Therin was already dead.

[wotfan4472]

Double post......MOTHERS MILK IN A CUP!! :p

[Suttree]

The main statues were finished, but the access keys were completed immediately before the razing of the Hall of the Servants. The Light had only enough time to hide them. The attack on Shayol Ghoul was a few days after the razing.

 

Not sure where you get much of the above? IIRC the Hall of Servants was a governing body located in Paaren Disen and I don't remember ever hearing about the timing you mention.

[wotfan4472]

Loial states it was a few days between the razing of the Hall and the attack on Shayol Ghul. There are a lot of comments from the Forsaken that hint that this razing marked imminent victory for the Shadow, as the Light's resources were diminishing, and not just people.

 

The statues stuff is from the BWB. It actually fits. The access keys were not found until the Breaking was started. We know the Aiel had them when they began their enormous journey, so it would not have been long after Lews Therin's death that these were found.

 

Sakanen is quite neat. I always knew the second sa angreal would show up. RJ does not put things like that in without it meaning something, or not showing up with impact. Boy, what impact!!

[Suttree]

Loial states it was a few days between the razing of the Hall and the attack on Shayol Ghul. There are a lot of comments from the Forsaken that hint that this razing marked imminent victory for the Shadow, as the Light's resources were diminishing, and not just people

Some quotes would be great. I'm blanking for some reason. Thanks.

[fionwe1987]

 

Loial states it was a few days between the razing of the Hall and the attack on Shayol Ghul. There are a lot of comments from the Forsaken that hint that this razing marked imminent victory for the Shadow, as the Light's resources were diminishing, and not just people

Some quotes would be great. I'm blanking for some reason. Thanks.

 

Pretty sure there's no such quote. There's not even evidence the Third Agers knew of the Hall of Servants. All we know is that Aginor boasts of facing Lews Therin there.

[wotfan4472]

But Loial specifically mentions the Hall when he is talking about Be'lal's history. He says that it was only a few days before the Shayol Ghul strike.

 

From the Dragon Reborn, Chapter 50:The Hammer

 

Loial cleared his throat, a sound much like firewood tumbling down a chute. "Be'lal."........

 

" I do not know what can be in the stories about him you do not already know. He is not mentioned, except in the razing of the Hall of the Servants just before Lews Therin Kinslayer and the Hundred Companions sealed him up with the Dark One."

 

That was straight from the book, and is proof of the timeline. Lews Therin would have died not long after that strike, meaning there was not much time to find those keys.

[wotfan4472]

Double re created post thinking previous did not save. Bloody flaming tablet :P

 

The BWB says the statues stuff is a few days before the events that Loial mentions.

 

Other quotes regarding that the Shadow was winnng are one liners scattered throughout the novels, but Graendal discusses it with Sammael, and Mesaana also mentions this a few books later during a meeting.

Semirhage's reaction to it always makes me smile by the way, and is in a Demandred POV, so we get his emotional reaction.

[Suttree]

So here is what the BWB has to say:
 

Just as the sa'angreal were completed, disaster struck. The ter'angreal required to use them were being made at a place far removed from the sa'angreal, because of the danger of "uncontrolled resonances during the final stages," and that region was overrun by Shadow forces under Sammael. Fortunately the ter'angreal themselves were hidden and the place where they were made destroyed just before the invasion (it had been a secret all along), so neither Sammael nor anyone else for the Shadow knew that any of the tools of Power were within their grasp. The side of the Light still had the sa'angreal, but no safe way to use them; without the ter'angreal it was certain that even the strongest Aes Sedai would be burned out by the huge flow of the One Power, probably within minutes.

Lews Therin argued again for his plan, acknowledging the risks but saying that it was now the only chance; yet Latra Posae maintained her opposition. Belief in the danger of misplaced seals had spread, and more female Aes Sedai had pledged to the Fateful Concord, even many who were nowhere near strong enough to qualify for the circle. Latra Posae managed to have agents sent to attempt to smuggle the access ter'angreal out of Shadow-controlled territory.

Almost immediately on the heels of Sammael's advance, and well before Latra Posae's agents had time to reach their objective, armies commanded by Demandred and Be'lal struck heavily, threatening (although perhaps unknowingly) the great sa'angreal. At this point in the war, halting the Shadow's advance was the best that could be hoped for; the forces of Light had regained no conquered territory in over two years. Lews Therin's forces barely managed to contain these two drives, but Demandred and Be'lal kept the pressure on. Sammael began a new offensive, also barely held, and there is mention of heavy military activity elsewhere. It was clear that the final defeat was at hand; should any of the three major offensives commanded by Forsaken break through, the end would be only a matter of time, perhaps as little a months. Massive riots swept a number of cities still held for the Light as people panicked in expectation of the Shadow's victory. The Hall of the Servants itself was razed by those once loyal to Lews Therin, and "the peace faction" reappeared. This faction was apparently a group demanding negotiations with the Forsaken.

 

The available evidence does not state whether there were several peace factions during the course of the war or only one, with fortunes that waxed and waned. This was not the first time that a faction had pressed for peace with the Forsaken, for the manuscript makes it clear that this group, acting on its own, sent parties to the Forsaken on several occasions to seek a negotiated settlement. In each case, however, members of the returned delegation were later discovered aiding the Shadow's cause. Apparently they did not heed a saying supposed to have originated during their time: "There is never peace with the Shadow."

Latra Posae's opposition to the Dragon's plan continued despite these events, and the female Aes Sedai—perhaps in the manner of animals that, seeing a boulder rushing downhill, freeze in the path of destruction—held to their pledge, making the circle impossible. Lews Therin plainly knew it would be impossible to hold the huge sa'angreal long enough for the access ter'angreal to be smuggled out, even if the smuggling were successful. In his view, there was no longer any choice, and he resolved to carry out his initial plan without the women.

Unknown to anyone at this point, all of the agents responsible for recovering the ter'angreal had been caught and killed, and the artifacts were scattered widely across areas held for the Shadow. News of this tragedy was not received until well after events had far outrun anyone's plans.

A group of powerful young male Aes Sedai, vocal to the point of disrupting meetings at the Hall of the Servants, had supported Lews Therin during the struggle with Latra Posae. This group was popularly called the Hundred Companions, though they actually numbered 113 at this point. With the Hundred Companions and a force of some ten thousand warmen, Lews Therin launched the planned attack on the Bore.

While the exact events of that day can never be known, some of the details have survived. The Dragon and his companions arrived at Shayol Ghul to discover an unexpected bonus: a gathering of the thirteen most powerful leaders of the Forsaken Aes Sedai was taking place at the Pit of Doom deep within the mountain at the same moment, perhaps summoned by the Dark One for a conference. The Companions struck quickly and mercilessly, sealing the Bore safely, without ripping open the Dark One's prison as many opponents had feared. Forty-five of the Companions were killed in the battle, and apparently the warmen took a much higher percentage of casualties. The strike trapped all the attending Forsaken within the sealing, thus removing with one stroke the Shadow's touch and his leadership in this world. With the seals safely placed, the cuendillar disks were carefully hidden.

 

So yeah, no mention of the timing and it's clear from the description it was much more than a few days. The narrative for the keys is quite a bit different from what is mentioned as well.

[Orderofolde]

 

 

Loial states it was a few days between the razing of the Hall and the attack on Shayol Ghul. There are a lot of comments from the Forsaken that hint that this razing marked imminent victory for the Shadow, as the Light's resources were diminishing, and not just people

Some quotes would be great. I'm blanking for some reason. Thanks.

 

Pretty sure there's no such quote. There's not even evidence the Third Agers knew of the Hall of Servants. All we know is that Aginor boasts of facing Lews Therin there.

 

I think that Rand quoted it in his rambling tying it to Culan Cuhan weeping.  I know I butchered the name, but it had Asmo in shock.

[wotfan4472]

I would agree Sutt, except that Loial's quote says otherwise. the BWB has the statues history, while the quote I put in from Loial gives how long between the razing and the attack. I suspect that Sakanen may have been hidden at the same time that Callandor was placed in the Stone or deffinately after.

 

The BWB gives the event that Be'lal is involved with. That attack by Demandred and Be'lal led to the razing mentioned by Loial, and is pretty much putting the puzzle together.

 

Culan Cuhan was at the time that Sammael betrayed the Light and became Destroyer of Hope in the fall of the Rorn M,doi and the Gates of Havan. That was in the fifth book of the series.

[Orderofolde]

Yes, I see now.  Culan Cuhan was from yet another betrayal of the Shadow.  There is nothing known about him other than Sammael's actions made him weep.  Maybe he was the man's mentor?

[wotfan4472]

It is actually quite intriguing. Culan Cuhan could be Sammael's mentor, or a sort of Age of Legends Pope-like figure. The Gates of Havan name seems to me to have a religious connotation.

 

All the Forsaken's stuff is fascinating to me, and makes me wish there was more to their story. There just seems so much that could have been done and explored.

[mbuehner]

Why is everyone automatically assuming Sakanen was made by the Light?

[Sabio]

Maybe it was made my the shadow, but seems likely if it was they would of used it in the age of legends and Ishy would of grabbed it one of the times he was spun out.  I never read BS story on Dem taking over Shara, there might be stuff in there on how he came to get Sakenen.  Many assume that the light had it then tried to hide it.

[Orderofolde]

It is possible.  Strange though how all the Forsaken seem to know how many Sa'angreal are left and which is more powerful than the other regarding Sa'angreal, but aside from Graendal obtaining the gold ring and the small knife, and Moiraine leaving one for Lanfear to find at the wagons, none can find an Angreal.

[wotfan4472]

If the Forsaken had access to Sakanen, they would have used it. They only got a hold of it when Demandred fought the Last Battle with it.

If Sakanen was present when any one of them fought the Dragon, then another sa'angreal would probably have been used if Callandor was not.

[Sabio]

We know some of the forsaken have a collection of items of power.  Sammuel had some, Graendel we know was lurking around when Rhavin and Samm died trying to grab some of the things they found, and Moridin had a huge collection of items.  Wouldn't surprise me if they also raided Rhuidean once it was opened up or took some of the stuff on the wagons.  Seeing how we have no idea what happened to the stuff on the wagons we have no idea if any measures were taken to protect them or what measures were taken to protect the stuff left in Rhudiean.  I know they were worried the stuff in tear was trapped.

[mbuehner]

Here's the trick... if the Light had access to Sakarnen, they would have used it as well. In fact, they had a far greater incentive to use it, survival.

 

We know that Ishmael didn't keep ANY angreal or sa'angreal as far as we know, despite gathering a considerable cache over the millenia. He was playing a far different game, so it seems reasonable that he wouldn't necessarily go grab it back in the war of power.

 

So lets start with the premise that both sides should have used Sakarnen all things being equal. The White in me would note it is particularly illogical to spend huge resources to create something you have no intention of using, even at the last extreme.

 

That being said- we know one sa'angreal that wasn't used when it might have been, Callandor- assuming it was created before the strike on SG, and if it wasnt, who was left sane enough to create it?  Actually, here's an interesting thought, perhaps Callandor was created after the Strike on SG by some of the men who werent taken by the taint yet (like the Eye of the World)... and it was Saidin's connection to the taint that created the 'flaws' in the sword, particularly its ability to channel the TP. As far as we know, it could well have been the last angreal created for men ever made.

 

but i digress.

 

Regardless, the only reason either side would have to lock Sakarnen away is for some future use. Now it could have been the light, perhaps some foretelling etc. But I think the stronger possibility is that Sakarnen was locked away on the specific instructions of the DO, the only entity on either side that could make such a command and have no argument over it. Perhaps Sakarnen was used as intended, in the LB, just as Callandor was. There is a nice symmetry to that.

 

Sakarnen is also a bit of nasty business in itself. Its name means "causer or instrument of greatest punishment" in the old tongue. Its also seemingly unique amongst Angreal, having two pieces. Taim noted that "it took something out of him, something more than just the normal strength required for channeling", and Demandred claims he bonded with it somehow. If this was devised by the shadow at the direction of the DO, that would explain how it differs from the angreal we're more familiar with.

[Sabio]

There is Case that if the light had access to Sakarnen there might of been the fear of using it since it was pretty powerful.  The shadow defiantly wouldn't of feared to use it in the Age of Legends.  Kind of like the statues where some feared why use them to destroy the shadow if there is the chance you might destroy everything else in the process.  If the DO had Sakarnen hidden, why not let Ishy use it when he was occasionally spun out?  It may of been specifically made for the shadow, but like Callandor we have no idea when it was made. So its hard to say, if it was made after the sealing then clearly it was a device created by the Shadow.   I always wished there would of been more history of Callandor given in the books.

[mb]

I recall somewhere telling that Callandor was used prior to the Strike.  do not remember where.

[Sabio]

Also could of been if it was made up of two pieces that each side had one peace, so maybe no one could use it during the age of legends.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I recall somewhere telling that Callandor was used prior to the Strike.  do not remember where.

 

Callandor was made before the Strike, it is unclear if it was used. However, Lews Therin never used it, it was only related to the Dragon Reborn after the Strike in the Breaking. 

[DemandredFO]

If Sakarnen was made by the Shadow, it must've ended up with the light since what was once a Nym was guarding it.FYI, there in no info on how Demandred took Shara, it's basically how he got the 2nd piece of Sakarnen. Hopefully the encyclopedia will give a little more background