[Advanced] French Revolution Mafia - Day 3

[LilyElizabeth]

I would say it's more likely that between Yates, Des and Ishy there is at least one mafia, who's hoping to make me and the others defending me look bad if they get caught.

 

I've been thinking the same thing for a while now, although not for the same reason you give. I'm leaning Des, but I have more catching up to do before I change my vote. 

[GoldeneyesND]

Yates, if you weren't before, you are now spamming the thread. You're not riling Des up, he posts at a 9 on the emotional distress scale at all times. I actually enjoy your question style, so please continue. Ishy and Pral, do you have any reads? Pral, you gotta up your post count or else you're in danger of losing bread. Mish, your comments have now ventured into whyme frame territory for me. I always vote whyme frymers. If you want people to unvote you, contribute to the discussion in a way that doesn't come off as sullen and defensive by looking at other player's posts. Feel free to ISO me or anyone else you care to make a case on, but I'm over the defensive posts.

 

I said aggressive play style in general, not specific to yours, so that's a misrep-ping. I don't care about past games, I think the number of times they actually help vs hinder useful analysis makes them fairly worthless and are ripe for meta manipulation. I believed you were scum when I voted you, but I also wanted to gauge your reaction to my vote. You've not responded to my liking. 

 

Des if you're up for it, I'd like to hear your opinions on Mish and Ishy, cause I have the three of you as a scum-team right now.

[LilyElizabeth]

Okay. Caught up. I was wrong. The three that I think we'll find scum among are Des, Yates, and AJ. I've already said I think AJ is town. I'm really liking Yates' case on Des, not that there is that much to it, but my gut says he's on to something with that aristocrat stuff. 

 

Mish, you can say my posts are all fluff, but I've posted more on day one than I usually do. Point to ONE GAME in the last year where I dig my teeth in before night two. There isn't one. Yes, I've been playing for years, but I'm not that good a scumhunter, even so. I need some background to go on, and a flip or two. Jack brought out the best in me, and I admit I was a better player when he was around. 

 

Anyway... Vote Des

[LilyElizabeth]

And also, all the non-game related stuff has made this game harder to follow than most. So, yeah, my posts aren't going to be deep for a while. 

[Andrej]

 

 

 

Occam's Razor isn't the issue.

 

Off-topic discussion is. I will quote a few more posts from him this game where he has done essentially the same thing. His aim doesn't seem to be finding scum, but rather discussing mafia theory.

For every one post devoted to off topic stuff from me, I guarantee you I can find 5-10 posts devoted to scumhunting. You're completely full of shit if you're really trying to say I haven't been scumhunting this game. But w/e, iso away. I'll respond at work tonight.

 

 

Where did I say you aren't scum hunting? I am saying you are also posting a bunch of off-topic bullshit WHICH I PROVIDED AN EXAMPLE OF A GAME YOU WERE SCUM IN TO SHOW THE CORRELATION.

 

I don't even need to say that you are still going to 'case' if you are town or mafia, we have played together enough that we both know that and we have both seen each other as either alignment. Just because you are posting WoTs and 'scum hunting' doesn't mean you are town.

 

Where did you say I wasn't scumhunting? In the freaking post I quoted scumhole (bolded and enlarged). You say I'm not focused on scumhunting, but on discussing mafia theory instead. When I had had VERY few posts discussing mafia theory, and a TON of scumhunting posts. You started backtracking on this the second people started calling you out on it, and then had to add this mock outrage in your post and act like you never said it.

 

Doesn't change the facts tho bro. You outright said I wasn't focused on scumhunting, even tho the vast majority of my posts are directly focused on doing just that this game. Then after being called out for your bs, you try to act like you never said it.

 

Okay, let me restate this again for the millionth time. You are going to still present 'cases' and 'scum hunt' regardless if you are town or scum. Just because you are voting and calling people scum DOESN'T ACCOUNT TO ANYTHING. This is how you play regardless of your alignment. My point is that yes, you are still posting and making 'cases' put a lot of your posts are filled with set-up spec. and OT discussion, meaning that your focus isn't to find scum. You are just posting filler outside of your fabricated conclusions.

 

 

 Lol are you complaining because I purposefully design my town meta and scum meta to be as close as possible? You want me to make it more obvious when I'm scum apparently?

 

 

...

 

My God this is inane. You seem to feel this persistent need to ask people to retrieve all this evidence from outside the game... as if that would prove ANYTHING. I've never seen someone rely on meta as much as you are this game.

 

 

...

 

(this came out after his long multiquote post where he edited out all the gameplay part of various posts to make me look bad).

 

The entire rest of this post is all revolved around me looking for connections and possible teammates in the game. Guess what AJ. THAT'S HOW I SCUMHUNT EARLY ON. You've seen me town in enough games to know I do this. It's not premature either, since my reads of any possible connections can obviously change as we start getting diff flips. The point is, scummies aren't independant islands. They are a team that cooperates together with a joint strategy. As such, looking for early connections and links helps me to uncover their plots. Mebbe you scumhunt by waiting for a scummie to slip up so you can go for them D1. I don't play like that. I am proactive and I work to find my scum, and don't settle for one. I want the whole team.

 

...

 

Spoilered the links from other games. Incidentally, the "setup spec" post you linked to came up in response to my character claim. I claimed Andrea, others said it would be a symp or something, and debate opened up about who the scum would be (whether it was dead characters or zombies or something). So the only reason I was involved in it in any way was because it was directly connected to my survival. Ergo, I didn't bring it up to distract town, I entered the conversation about it to make people believe Andrea would be town.

 

Anyways, bolded is you showing your scum colors proud. You're trying to preempt any defense I could submit before I have a chance to submit it. Trying to deflect the argument you know I'll make, which is RIGHT btw. And your case on me pretty much boils down to you saying it's a "gut" feeling, that my posts "feel off" this game, purposefully trying to be as neutral as possible to make it more difficult for me to respond. The baseless speculation of associative tells is how I scumhunt early on. I fling poo, as people say, and see what sticks. One of the best ways to get reactions from people is linking them to someone. You can judge from their reaction whether or not or how much they're fine with being linked to that other person. And excessive off-topic discussion? Puhlease. You tried your hardest to chop some of my posts together to make it seem like this was the case, and you still failed.

 

...

 

The aristocrat thing is you grasping at straws. We're in a freaking French Revolution themed game. Why WOULDN'T you assume the monarchy to be the scum? Since you seem to be so fond of role pm hints, what does yours say about the Crown? I know MINE doesn't paint a very good picture of them.

 

If you're waiting on me to fetch more meta examples for you, you're going to be waiting an awful long time lol. I'll say it again: I am NOT your lapdog. Fetching examples of stuff I've done in other games will in NO WAY prove myself to be town in this game, so why waste the effort? If you actually thought me providing examples of meta from other games to make me look more townie this game, then you're mafia skills need a lot of sharpening.

 

I prove myself town by trying to actively hunt scum and get my reads and reasoning for those reads out. Here's the catch tho: proving myself to be town isn't my highest priority. Not by a long shot. Catching the scum IS. If I die, my alignment will be proven then for all to see, and my reads will have been confirmed to be genuine. Until that point, you can take your requests for meta examples from other threads and shove em.

 

 

Dead horse by now. This is exactly what I am talking about. We all know you are going to play the same as far as your post count regardless of alignment. I don't care that you are posting cases. I am saying that your cases are bogus. You are fake scum hunting.

 

Yates actually has a good point. It's common on MS to ask for outside game evidence when it comes to meta cases. His point is that I am saying you post more OT as scum. He is saying that if you can provide an example where you also do this as town as well that my case would be moot. Instead of doing so, you continue to proclaim that you aren't his lapdog when you have a pretty good opportunity here to disprove what I am saying.

 

This is true and what I have been saying all along. You will continue to post 'cases' and make connections like you have been even when you are scum so that you look active and engaged. This is more or less a null tell. What I am saying is that yes, you are making cases. But I also think they are baseless and you are just making up fake connections so that you appear like you are scum hunting. Is that clear enough for you yet?

 

FTR, you scummate Peace in that game was the one who introduced the idea that your character could be a symp. You certainly took advantage of this when you came in with your misleading set-up spec. and also distanced from your teammates by naming their characters as the scum team. Seeing this and noticing how you keep using the word 'aristocrat' specifically when you are referring to the scum team in this game pings for me. There is nothing in my role PM referring to aristocrats, although I will concede the point that 'the Crown' is mentioned. You also admit here that your speculation is baseless, meaning that it is fake. You don't actually see these connections, you are just throwing out buzzwords and false tells in order to lead mislynches. What's ironic about this statement is how you say my defense was pre-emptive, when you are exactly proving my point. You keep pushing that you've been scum hunting. I have been saying all along (which should be apparent to anywho who has played with you) that you will play the same as town or scum. You will make cases you will scum hunt. Just because you are linking players and spinning things in a scummy light doesn't mean that your interest is in actually finding scum.

 

I don't think the aristocrat mention is grasping at straws at all. I have seen no mention of the word thus far in the game except for you when you refer to the scum team. This looks like a slip on your part. Again with the fetching of meta thing. No, it won't necessarily prove that you are town. But, it would disprove my theory that you post more OT as scum if you can provide a game where you did the same with a town alignment. So think of it less as proving yourself town, but disproving my theory that you are scum. If you can show that you do the same as town, then my point will no longer have weight. This isn't a difficult concept. Again, you will 'actively scum hunt and post reads' regardless of your alignment. If you do flip scum, I would say that at least one of your partners is also in your list for potential scum based on our past experience in games together. You like to target townies for your primary heat but will also list some of your scummates in your reads as the game goes on to distance a bit. This is nothing new and right in line with what I have said.

 

Wanted to do a reread of the thread but I ran out of time. Fyi, I'm off the next two nights so won't be as active.

 

For now, my best guess for the scum team is AJ, Yates, Lily, and Basel. I'm also slightly wary of Ishy since I think he could be buddying me- he hasn't said much this game except for his posts defending me/attacking AJ. And there's most likely a lurking scum out there somewhere. My best guess for that would be GF, he literally has half the number of posts as the mod, which is the bare minimum to not lose bread or w/e. And I don't think any of them were game related in any way. Hallia has been sniping tho, I could see her as scum. Pray and Elf are in danger of starving a lot quicker than the rest of us, not really much point in even trying to get a read on either of them. Interested in what Krak will have to say when he fully catches up. And that's all I got for now.

 

Bolded: This should be read as "I'm aware that the DL is less than 24 hours away, and most of you should know that I post from work. This is my excuse for laying low until after the DL passes."

 

 

@Yates; there's a coding error, you have  [spoiler=] at the beginning, it shouldn't be a = there.

 

 

Has anyone here played a game with Golden where he was mafia? I've only been in one game with him where he was town, and I don't feel like he's playing the same at all. But it might just be his playstyle evolving so I dunno.

 

Oh yes. He is really, really aggressive as mush. He is not like that this game.

 

 

Do you have any other thoughts? DL is in like 24 hours and you haven't voted yet.

[Andrej]

Countertrain as in not any of Basel, Yates, or Peace.

 

Worried this AJ/Mish thing could be trumped up to distract from earlier stuff.

 

So here he is saying that he is worried Mish's wagon is a counter train to that of Basel, Yates, and Peace. None of which were very high in the VCs. This is more or less him saying that he believes one of those 3 are scum. He is consistent at least that Basel and Yates are still on the suspect list but I am curious as to when Peace suddenly dropped off. Also notice the bit where he is saying that Mish and I could be distancing. This is the type of associative tells I am talking about. There is nothing to prove this, and it also counters what he is saying in the first sentence. Needless WIFOM and baseless correlation.

 

Mish jumping to Lily after I fos'd her vote screams scummy to me however. Looks like she thought she would lose the tug of war with AJ and wanted to seek out an easier target.

 

Unvote, Vote Mish

 

Could give some info on others as well. If she's scum her initial snipe post could have been meant to clear heat off of Basel, Yates, or Peace.

 

Here he joins the Mish wagon finally. Says her voting Lily after he FoSs her scummy, although prior to this he mentions that Lily's vote could be a bus move if Lily and Mish are teammates. He then set-ups up the next 3 based on Mish's flip, which we won't have yet.

 

 

 

Countertrain as in not any of Basel, Yates, or Peace.

 

Worried this AJ/Mish thing could be trumped up to distract from earlier stuff.

I'm beginning to worry you are trying stall the Mish wagon.

Hehe ninjad.

 

If Mish flips town, Imma be even more interested in AJ. I felt like part of his push and casing on Mish was kinda weak, felt forced. Lily would also be a good suspect were she to flip town as well, and mebbe Hallia for her nudging of Mish.

 

 

Another example. This time it's me, Lily, and Hallia. Again, he is pre-emptively setting up future mislynches by making these types of associations without prior evidence. So regardless of how Mish will flip, Des still has 3 suspects in either direction.

 

 

 

Hehe ninjad.

If Mish flips town, Imma be even more interested in AJ. I felt like part of his push and casing on Mish was kinda weak, felt forced. Lily would also be a good suspect were she to flip town as well, and mebbe Hallia for her nudging of Mish.

 

 

What part? Your general statements like this don't mean much.

 

 

I pretty much already said what part. You fos her for aggressiveness, but Mish is aggressive as town or mafia, so that's a null tell for her. And I think you've played with her enough to know that.

 

This is a misrep. I didn't FoS Mish for aggressiveness, although I did mention her defensive and aggressive tone when she cased me. I voted her saying that her assumption that I was scum and Hallia town came across like a slip that she knew already that Hallia was town aligned.

 

 

 

 

Jumping on the easy train I see, Lily.

Do you really think you are an "easy train?"

 

Anyway, who is the scum on your wagon? You just Town slipped like a boss [and no, I won't clarify].

 

 

Nah I gotcha.

 

Not speaking for Mish, but I'd say Lily or Des.

 

 

Lol you freaking kidding me? AJ is obviscum.

 

Pulling a 180 like that because someone else said Mish "townslipped", when you yourself were still going back and forth with her moments before.

 

Yeahhhh Unvote, Vote AJ

 

ALL ABOARD!

 

 

This exchange is interesting. So his vote is on Mish. Yates (who I am town reading) comes in to say that Mish just townslipped. I catch what he is talking about and answer the question that of the people on Mish's wagon that could be scum I think it could be Lily or Des. Des immediately jumps off Mish's wagon and changes his vote to me instead. Sorta OMGUS, no? This also gives me the feeling that he knows that both Mish and Yates are town, so seeing as how Yates came to her rescue he wanted to avoid the backlash of being on the train.

[keyholder21]

Official Vote Count:

 

Yates (1) - Hallia

Thorum (1) - Basel

Mish (2) - Lily, golden

Elf (1) - Thorum

Lily (1) - Mish

AJ (3) - des, Peace, Ishy

Des (2) - AJ, Yates

Basel (1) - Elf

 

Not Voting (3) - Krak, GF, pral

 

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch

 

.Deadline:http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140107T09&p0=22&msg=Day+1

A deadline is now in effect.

[LilyElizabeth]

Crap! Unvote Vote Des

[keyholder21]

Official Vote Count:

Yates (1) - Hallia
Thorum (1) - Basel
Mish (1) - golden
Elf (1) - Thorum
Lily (1) - Mish
AJ (3) - des, Peace, Ishy
Des (3) - AJ, Yates, Lily
Basel (1) - Elf

Not Voting (3) - Krak, GF, pral

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Deadline: http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140107T09&p0=22&msg=Day+1


23 hours until deadline.

[Graendals favourite]

Vote Des, by previous case.

[John E. Kelley]

Vote Des, by previous case.

Which case? Who's case?

[Graendals favourite]

I meant Andrej's

[peacesells]

UNVOTE

[Basel Gill]

Unvote, vote AJ. My scum read on Thorum is producing nothing today. However, AJ has been linking himself to Hally and a re-read focusing on him gave me the creepy crawly feeling. That unvote by Peace makes me wonder if he was trying to derail the AJ train once it got to a certain point.

[peacesells]

sorry...hit enter too early.  Watching the Kansas Sdsu game on tv while catching up.

 

AJ's case is getting better.  There are a few pile on items that keep ruining otherwise good points so it looks like piling on..

[peacesells]

Unvote, vote AJ. My scum read on Thorum is producing nothing today. However, AJ has been linking himself to Hally and a re-read focusing on him gave me the creepy crawly feeling. That unvote by Peace makes me wonder if he was trying to derail the AJ train once it got to a certain point.

 

If you are convinced I am scum...why not just vote me and stop using me as a basis to vote others?

[John E. Kelley]

Is DL really at 3pm on a workday on the east coast?

[Basel Gill]

 

Unvote, vote AJ. My scum read on Thorum is producing nothing today. However, AJ has been linking himself to Hally and a re-read focusing on him gave me the creepy crawly feeling. That unvote by Peace makes me wonder if he was trying to derail the AJ train once it got to a certain point.

 

If you are convinced I am scum...why not just vote me and stop using me as a basis to vote others?

 

 

Voting you at this point would be a total outlier vote, and would be totally useless to town. I went with the scummiest person out of the ones I think actually stand a chance of being lynched at this point in the voting. I think Des is town, he is just being Des. Since I have scum reads on you and AJ, and AJ is much closer to being lynched, it helps town more for me to vote him. Have plenty of fear, cause I will remember you for future day phases.

 

"Being Des" =

[Andrej]

I think Des is town, he is just being Des. 

 

You obviously haven't read anything said on the last page or two.

[peacesells]

Basel, your theory is complete BS.  You think I'm derailing an AJ train when I've been his toughest critic.

[peacesells]

How about we all lynch Basel who is the obvious scum today?

 

VOTE BASEL

[Basel Gill]

Basel, your theory is complete BS.  You think I'm derailing an AJ train when I've been his toughest critic.

 

You removed your vote from him with less than a day before DL, when he was one of the two leading trains at the time. If you're his toughest critic, then unvoting him looks pretty dodgy.

[Basel Gill]

 

I think Des is town, he is just being Des. 

 

You obviously haven't read anything said on the last page or two.

 

 

I've read your tunneling on Des, your buddying on Hally, your nonsense arguments, and your flogging dead horses. I've read plenty.

[hazelkrs1]

Well then. Looks like I am the lynch du jour for today. Meh. I think I need a break from teh mafiaz anyways. Town could do much worse besides, I'm just vanilla. And I think it has been a somewhat productive day for a first day, so I think town will still have a good chance of pulling this through. I'm fairly confident in my reads, so my flip will hopefully help lead to some scumbags being strung up.

 

Just wanna say that almost all of my train consists of my highest scum reads this game. Only one that's missing is Basel, and I think he's staying away from my lynch to try and distance himself from a townie lynch. AJ, Yates, Lily, GF, are all prime scum candidates. GF literally posting the bare minimum to keep his bread and bandwagons onto AJ's weak case on me. Lily is sniping and bandwagoning as well, just saying she agrees with Mish that one of me, AJ, or Yates (or Ishy?) is scum, even tho she had recently been saying how she thought Mish was scum, and then votes me and says I seem scummiest without explaining why. I think it's fairly obvious my train is being pushed by scum. But whatevs, that will make my death that much more helpful to town.

 

@Golden: I already gave my thoughts on Ishy recently. I think it's possible he's buddying me to make himself look better with my flip. Haven't really seen him say much this game besides defending me. As for Mish, I initially thought her possible scum cause her emotional reaction didn't seem genuine considering how it switched fairly fast, but her explanation of why that could have been as well as her explanation of why she thought Hallia could be town and AJ scum all gives me a townie lean on her. Plus the people I saw pushing on her a little while ago are now the ones I mostly suspect.

 

@Yates: Most irritated with you right now. I mention multiple times that I greatly dislike using stuff outside the gamethread to try and catch scum, stuff like role pm matching. If you're town, I find this to be a completely classless way to play, and I suspect you are relying on it so much to try and earn as much town cred as possible, while keeping from actually having to scumhunt. Nothing in my role pm makes me think in any way of Guns and Roses. Don't like that group anyways. Slash kicks ass, but Axle is a whiny little turd. Apparently since my character's backstory isn't really indicative of alignment, the "Crown" stuff might not actually indicate the mafia team to be the monarchy. THAT'S where I got the whole thing about the aristocracy btw.

 

@AJ: Ah where do I begin. Y'know, you've talked so much stuff about me not trying to actually catch scum, but I've been participating the entire game and have consistently shown myself to be studying all interactions and observe everything around me. You on the other hand, have pretty much done NOTHING but tunnel on me most of the game. So which of us has actually done more to contribute to the scumhunt? By focusing only on me most of the game, and ignoring everything else around you, once I flip you will have gained NOTHING if you are town, and will most likely have put yourself in prime position to get lynched tomorrow. And if you're scum, like I think you are, you'll no doubt try to pull a page from my book and act like it was all my fault that I got lynched, that I played poorly or some crap. It won't work, and you'll have overextended yourself just to get a VT lynched D1. Grats for you I guess.

 

Here's a HUGE thing tho you apparently don't realize: My job in this game is NOT to try and prove myself to be town. That's ridiculous. There's essentially no way to truly prove this without a flip on me anyways, but either way focusing my efforts on trying to prove myself to be town would be doing a tremendously poor job of being town. My job is to try and broadcast my reads and reasoning as much as possible to try and help my team win. Survival isn't my main concern, not even close. So all these requests from you to try and "prove" myself to be town read as you just trying to make me look as defensive as possible.

 

I will say this however, since you apparently can't seem to drop this concept: I go offtopic in games, a fair amount. I post at night, when most are asleep, so if I have someone to talk to, I'll prob talk about whatever just to keep myself occupied. As far as setup talk, I know I'm sounding like a broken record at this point, but yes I do usually do a bit of this in every game I'm in, regardless of alignment. I like trying to figure out puzzles, whether from the town's or mafia side. Honestly you could pick just about any game I've played in and I could show you parts where I was discussing setup. Not gonna fetch links, cause to me that's wasted energy as my job isn't to try and prove my towniness, but off the top of my head Darthe/Wombat's trigame I was town in all three threads, and delved pretty deeply into setup talk, thinking that there might be a common mafia team through all three threads because of the Macbeth references in each thread. I ended up being right btw, and iirc the only other person to pick up on that mechanic was Key or someone else. In TTSS, I was town cop and went into setup talk when the other cop claim came out, and through my theory talk we ended up lynching scum instead of the other claimed cop, which would have happened most likely in other similar situations. In Weasley vs. Malfoy I was town Lover, and my theory/setup talk in that game helped me deduce that my partner was scum, and we ended up winning. Those are just the examples from the main page, I could go on and on.

 

Virtually every game I play in I usually end up in setup talk in one way or another (if it's advanced, since most the time basic setups don't require as much sleuthing), and I pride myself on thinking outside the box to try and help figure out mechanics that might need figuring out. In fact, I've been invited to games before precisely because that mod thought I'd be good for that game since I have those kind of lateral thinking skills. And are you completely overlooking the fact that this game itself is using a unique mechanic which could very well demand that players like myself try and figure it out in order to help their team? And looking at all interactions, and trying to pick up on connections between various players, that's how I scumhunt. Usually to good results. So if you don't like me doing that stuff, by all means keep your vote on me. But know you're gonna look pretty awful once I flip. If you're town, you've been dreadful so far, tunneling on one player most the time and throwing confirmation bias out the window. If you're scum, you'll hang soon anyways so carry on.

[Andrej]

^ This is scum Des posting his pre-lynch AtE lol

 

I can link you to another game if need be.