[Basic] Christmas Mentors & Maffia

[Turin Turambar]

 

Via, Krak and Hoof are mafia. If the game is still going on then Effie is too.

 

/game

 

You can scrap Effie of that list because we only have 4 mafia. There is also a third party out there though.

 

Do you think in a game of 14 there will be 4 mafia and a third party? 

 

Why are you so sure there are 4 mafia? with a third party player it would seem more like there would be 3 mafia.

 

Why are you so certain there is a third party?

 

If there is how can you conclude so strongly on the townies?

 

The joy of third party is being able to really scumhunt, especially a survivor. they would want to be as "town" as possible

 

I will go back and look at your post now cloud

[csarmi]

Mod's going to sleep. Nothing's happening anyway. Will be around to start the day.

[Tommyrod]

 

 

Via, Krak and Hoof are mafia. If the game is still going on then Effie is too.

 

/game

 

You can scrap Effie of that list because we only have 4 mafia. There is also a third party out there though.

 

Do you think in a game of 14 there will be 4 mafia and a third party? 

 

Why are you so sure there are 4 mafia? with a third party player it would seem more like there would be 3 mafia.

 

Why are you so certain there is a third party?

 

If there is how can you conclude so strongly on the townies?

 

The joy of third party is being able to really scumhunt, especially a survivor. they would want to be as "town" as possible

 

I will go back and look at your post now cloud

 

 

I really hate your posts but you are probably spewed clear.

 

One problem with a mafia lynch D1 is it sucks a lot of the tension out of the game.

[Krakalakachkn]

Krak followed me onto Hoof while he thought I was mafia.

 

Your reads were good man.  His post was bad and you did a good job calling him out on it.

 

 

 

Here's my ISO on Nolder.  

 

 

Nolder, why have you been up Cloud's ass in this game when he is arguably the most pro-town player in this game? Who are your top 3 scumreads right now?

You can make that argument if you want to. I'll laugh and call you dumb though.

 

As for scumreads.

I'm reluctant to narrow my focus to just three people right now, it's too early in the game for that.

Especially given that so many people have barely posted.

If I've noticed something off or wrong or whatever I've called people on it.

Nothing has been held back thus far so what you've seen is what you get.

 

I will say that out of everyone Krak has been the only one to give me a town vibe thus far.

 

 

Tommy really stuck out here.  He gets on Nolder's case for questioning/challenging Cloud, acting as if Cloud is proven town and above reproach.  And of course that is a completely ridiculous statement, nothing is taken for granted besides BFG, so Tommy definitely pings here for defending Cloud.  Then he throws in the 3 reads thing in an attempt to balance out the post and look like he's doing something proactive.

 

 

 

Not sure why this is claiming TOmmy was the author, but it's definitely NOlder.  It's at 27 Dec at 1:15.

Checking in for today.

Don't have much time but I notice Hallia hasn't been around much.

Want to hear more from her before our deadline. If not, I have no problem with sending her to the executioner.

 

##Vote Hallia

 

First vote and mention of Hallia.  Not unusual for his desire to lynch in actives or prod for activity.

 

THis is pissing me off.  Nolder 28 Dec 1:37

Obviously I don't have the time right now to read some of the massive posts some people have made but rest assured when I get to them you'll hate me because I'll just be spamming the thread with catchup. Ketchup? Anyway...

 

I see Hallia hasn't voted anyone yet. Has she even posted since I voted?

I don't want to bury my vote over non participating because it's a null tell but I'm reluctant to vote people who are participating without better reads on them.

Eh whatever. Sorry but this is the best I can manage right now. Next week you'll probably be sick of how much I'm posting but for now you'll have to settle for this.

 

 

Calls out Hallia again.  

 

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/86578-basic-christmas-mentors-maffia/?p=3119030

 

Asks Hallia if she posted since he called her out, she replies that she did and tells him not to be lazy and go look.

 

Turns out she responded to a post from Elae and voted Goldeneyes, 4th person to do so behind Peace, Thia, and Via.

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/86578-basic-christmas-mentors-maffia/?p=3118783

 

 

 

 

I posted before you made some comment or other about me.  I thought that was kinda funny, so yes, I did.

A link or post number would have been helpful...

 

Don't be lazy and go look?

It's not laziness that is taking up my time right now.

In fact I can turn that right around on you and call you lazy for not taking the time to grab a link for me when unlike me you know where to look.

 

 

I posted this before you wrote that, did you skim past it?

 

Apparently I did, yeah.

 

Hrm, looking back, I thought maybe we'd posted at the same time and you'd missed it, but there was a 10 minute gap in between.  

 

 

##Vote Nolder

Well unfortunately I misjudged what time I had and wasn't able to check this.

Instead I made a crippled lady some dinner, did dishes, and took out trash, among other things.

Not that I expect that to matter to anyone nor am I fishing for a break.

Now I have a couple minutes to make this post before we go to pick up her inlaw from work.

Maybe instead of worrying about when a post was made and calling me lazy for not having the time to do more than skim the thread right now, next time you could just point me to the quotes directly so I can be judged on the contents of my thoughts/posts. I asked because I wanted to do that for you and not leave my vote on you for inactivity when obviously that's outdated but I guess no good deed goes unpunished.

 

 

These don't look good for Nolder.  He's got a weird attitude at this point, arguing semantics with Hallia about being lazy (worthless) - the whole "I could turn around and call you lazy" part is pretty unnecessary and I think it's clear that Hallia shouldn't be doing his work for him.  Then he comes out with that random AtE and ends with a "I don't want to vote you but I'm voting you."  This reads weird for NOlder and definitely could be scummates distancing.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/86578-basic-christmas-mentors-maffia/?p=3119069

 

In response to Blackhoof saying Nol is pinging heavily for his Hallia stuff and moves his vote from Peace to Nolder.

 

 

Hoof I'm not sure what you're trying to say but I don't have time to wait for an explanation.

More info would be gained from another lynch but at the same time inactive people cannot be given passes to endgame.

At the time I voted her she was inactive and despite my attempt at having her point out what she could choose to be her most relevant game posts she refused and called me lazy.

In my opinion she's reaped what she has sewn in this case. My vote may not be the most relevant one but because of her I wasn't able to asses whether it would be a good idea to unvote or not.

 

 

More crap. THat last part pings heavily.

 

 

 

I take what is said in game as game play.  Doesn't mean I can't do the same Nolder.  You are way too immature to stand on any high horse. 

 

 

Strong scum vibe from Nolder for his trying to tell people how to play stance.  Major scum tell. 

My horse can beat up your horse.

 

 

Well considering you're already voting me I don't see why I should give you the benefit of the doubt here tbh.
It looks like you're...hmmm what would this be called. Small game hunting?

Blah, blah, blah. If I wanted you lynched I'd be pushing on you.

 

Uh, you kind of are. Hence the vote.

It's not like you're going to make it obvious but placing a vote on me, someone who tends to attract trains early and often, as soon as you enter the game without reason is basically going for the early lynch as far as I'm concerned. Trying to strike up the Hoof joke was the same thing. You're casting a wide net. What I can't tell yet is if you're doing this because you're trying to find a good place to bury your vote or if you're trying to see who would follow you.

 

Defensive play here, brings up the fact that he attracts trains early.  This post reads as Nolder being nervous about the vote on him but trying to play it as Leelou is scummy, not him.  It kinda looks that way too, as she has voted him but states that she doesn't want him lynched.  Then why have your vote on him still?

 

The earlier part with Peace is a continuation of their argument from earlier and smacks of bravado.  Pure posturing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well considering you're already voting me I don't see why I should give you the benefit of the doubt here tbh.
It looks like you're...hmmm what would this be called. Small game hunting?

Blah, blah, blah. If I wanted you lynched I'd be pushing on you.

 

Uh, you kind of are. Hence the vote.
It's not like you're going to make it obvious but placing a vote on me, someone who tends to attract trains early and often, as soon as you enter the game without reason is basically going for the early lynch as far as I'm concerned. Trying to strike up the Hoof joke was the same thing. You're casting a wide net. What I can't tell yet is if you're doing this because you're trying to find a good place to bury your vote or if you're trying to see who would follow you.

 

 
That's for me to know and you to find out. You know damn well me just voting you is different than me pushing a lynch on you.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
It's like saying L-1 isn't a death sentence even if it's close to deadline.
But you and I both know that on DM it is.

 

Quoted in reference to above post.  I happen to agree with Leelou's reasoning and I think she responded well to Nol's earlier post.

[Krakalakachkn]

 

I didn't feel it was enough to vote on, but it was/is enough to poke with a stick, and also get day one going further than merry Xmas posts.

Elf is using the classic "his play was scummy but it wasn't enough to vote him" scum tactic.

 

Could just be more of the same attacks we've seen from Cloud but this was a fair observation.
I don't know that I would go so far as to call it a "classic scum tactic" but it is absolutely something to note later in the game I think.

 

Also what tommyrod said peace, explanation?

 
And also notice how she is trying to shift the attention towards to Peace who voted for her after it was already explained that his lack of reasoning isn't anything out of the ordinary. Her prod towards Peace and her later vote on him means means that she is afraid of OMGUSing me. A townie would be less self-conscious about her votes than she has been thus far.

 

This is much less reasonable.
We want to try to include everyone on Day 1 and not let anyone slip under the radar so we have stuff to analyze as the game goes on.
Not only that, but I think an explanation was absolutely called for.
Just because Elf isn't concentrating solely on defending from your accusations does not mean he (she?) is trying to shift attention.
This further goes to show me that you think Elf SHOULD be the center of attention. Stop tunneling and address the game at large.

 

1. There isn't anything wrong with not having scum reads at the start of the game, and I never expected you to have them. What is pinging however is that even though Tom is your only scum read you didn't want to commit and vote for him.

That's not unusual for Day 1.
 

@Nolder's case on me:
 
You are calling me out for being too eager, which is actually true because I have been really looking forward to this game. However, since when is eagerness a scumtell? It only conveys excitement for a game which isn't an exclusive emotion for the mafia own. You don't say anything about the content of my posts themselves which is very scummy, and instead only go on how I'm being eager.

Since when is eagerness to lynch a scumtell? Always.
The town has two guaranteed powers. The ability to talk and reason things out during the day, and the ability to vote to lynch someone.
Rushing through the game at any point is ill advised at best. At worst it can be a complete disaster.
Of course I'm someone who is impatient and I hate when we wait until the deadlines but there is absolutely a happy medium in there somewhere.
Trying to rush the day to me seems scummy. I don't need to dig deeper into your posts than that because really...you have nothing.
And I'm not faulting you for that exactly. The game has only been going for how many hours? And this is a game which builds from nothing. That's why we joke around and throw some silly votes. We start attacking each other for those silly accusations knowing that they will lead to reactions and more solid reads and cases. If you are town and you really think you have a scum pegged on Day 1 you need to make a damn good case and so far all I've seen is normal day 1 stuff from Elf. You wanna convince me to lynch Elf? Give them a noose to hang themselves with, aka give it more time. We have no deadline so there is zero need to rush a lynch at this time.
 

You quoted a post of mine where I ask Tom to follow me after he has been promting us to do the same thing the whole game so far, and then you continue that I'm not trying to apply pressure but just want to get her Elf lynched. This isn't true at all because I have actually explained my reasonings for why I'm suspicious about  Elf's play, and by only isolating that post of mine it looks like you are trying to paint events in such a light that would only back up your negative view on me.

Again, that is exactly what seems off to me.
You're so serious about lynching Elf, so convinced.
Why are you so sure on Day 1?
 

I was in no way protecting Tom. I only questioned Elf's lack of vote on him after she said that she found him scummy.

Fine. I'm just telling you how it looked from my POV though.
 

You calling Peace out for apprently not broadcasting his towniness is bull because his play has been spot on so far. You even admitted the same thing yourself by saying that he is on his town meta. It's also hypocrytical because you accuse me of defending Tom and then proceed to openly defend Peace.

Peace is well aware of his meta I think which means a meta read goes right out the window.
Furthermore just because someone is "on their town meta" does not mean they can do no wrong.
Not explaining a vote is wrong. It always has been and it always will be. (Pssst, Wombat, DIAF)
And no I didn't defend Peace. Tom asked what our thoughts were and I answered.
You went out of your way to comment where you weren't asked.

I think you have an ulterior motive behind your attack on me.

I think you think you can't be wrong and so any criticism of your moves or tactics is chalked up to scum attacking you.
You're going to be the guy that says half the game is scum and that you've got it all figured out, calling it now.
 

Now you are just stretching Leelou's vote on you to fit your scum agenda. Nobody besides Leelou even mentioned you until now so your fake paranoid attitude of being lynched is misplaced. It's also good to see that you are trying your best to not mention Elf at all, while she called you calm and reasoned in post #186 which would be her only defense of a player in this game so far.

What agenda is that again? I thought my agenda was attacking you not Leelou.
Or, could it be? No...could it be that just maybe I felt like addressing her vote on me because it would be suspicious not to?
Well damned if I do damned if I don't, as usual.

And lol at fake paranoia. I know you don't play on JN but feel free to ask around how many times I've been lynched on a Wednesday there.
Spoiler: too many times.
 
 

 

 

Oh and yeah, I don't think analysing first posts on day one is helpful except to give scum reads on easy lynchs

 
Actually, it's the most town thing you can do.  It put you out there to be read.  Tommy gives me strong town vibes just for that one action.  He may be the new guy coming in here insulting people before anyone knows him...and has no clues on how to behave in a social setting when you are the new guy but he is town so far.

 

 
You are contradicting the most "logical" process in the game for establishing town behavior.  Giving reads.  You discredit Tommy for giving reads.  Like I said, I've given you my reason.  You chose to ignore it.  In my emotional opinion your logic has failed.
 
(I'm really hoping you can see the sarcasm...when it's being obviously pointed out to you.)
 
 
Let's extrapolate a bit more. 
 
You FOS Tommy for giving his reads.
 
Nolder states, when building a case on me, that giving reasons/reads is the only acceptable town behavior.
 
You never question Nolder on this?
 
Logically that does not add up. 
 
Do you wish to check your logic?

 

Good post.
 

Actively engaging in scum hunting requires a certain degree of defending of other players, or rather of calling out a play that inadvertently defends their attacker.  I understand how a lot of people read that as a scum tell, yet I have many a time have called out a player's bullshit only to have someone accuse me of defending that player's target.
 
Did I put that right?  I think I did.  Defending is sometimes necessary only if it isn't a defensive tunneling.  Then it's scummy.  Or you're a cop with a viewing.

That's true. Especially on Day 1.
I'll tone back the lecturing people on defending others thing for now although I don't think they did it as scumhunting tbh.

 

 

Big post regarding Cloud's play.  I agreed with Nol regarding Cloud's call out of Elfern for questioning Peace's vote on her.  It smacked of intentional unfair logic intended to make Elf appear wrong for questioning another's vote on her.  It was a scummy thing to say.  Nol accuses Cloud of tunneling and attempting to make Elf the center of attention was a good point, and it would be hard to argue otherwise I think.  Cloud definitely stayed on Elf's ass for a while, looking as if he was going to go down the line of players and hold them each to the flame until he was satisfied or caught scum.  He's not really playing like that anymore, so this is an interesting interaction.

 

Nol is jumping back and forth between Leelou, Cloud, and PEace, but he isn't tunneling and it doesn't read as a desperate attempt to fling mud and see what sticks.

 

 

 

 

So I wrote these in parallel, meaning they are in chronological order by player but the events aren't in order for you as the reader. So you should read them all before replying as some of the commentary for one player will reference other players as I go along. These are my thoughts up until Post #200, will continue developing. Some players have posted wayyyy more than others and will have more meat to chew on.

 

01 - Peace

The meta-aware opening of "yo" in #13. He hasn't posted shit until #114 when he sheeps Cloud's vote on Elf out of the blue. He gets snarky as fuck when I question that move, and makes an art out of dodging my question for a while. Very uncomfortable with the continuation of dodging, particularly in #127 with "why is it necessary to regurgitate Cloud's reasons?" This one pings me harder the second time, because town should know why they're doing what they're doing. It should roll right off the tongue because they have an organic thought process. They develop suspicions and act on them. Yet Peace has difficulty articulating any reasoning for his vote on Elf. No bueno. 

 

When I ask if this is normal behavior, Cloud and Leelou both say yes. It doesn't mean I am going to give him a free pass for that, though. Peace gets uber snarky when I ask for more detail from other players on his play. Then he backtracks and says I'm very town in #151... I don't know how I feel about this one. Yes, townies do this sometimes, to see how people will react. But I've also seen mafia back down with a "hah! just testing you!" excuse. I'll put him down as slightly scummy by this point. Using the 2+2 forums and my ego as a counter-point is working outside of the game instead of inside it... I dislike that behavior a lot. 

 

Peace blows off Elf's vote on him with a "you need to re-read" comment in #177, which I dislike because he is twice now refusing to give reasonable justification for his original action when prompted. Why can't he produce an argument off the cuff? Ping. I dislike how he jumps on Nolder in #184 after Leelou already cast doubt on Nolder. He follows up with that in #189, which is good. 

 

Peace attacking my "you can show me you're town by scumhunting" comment in #198 by trying to spin it as pigeon-holing Turin smells like crap on second read. I've never had someone do that to me before and it doesn't even make sense. But that aside, it stinks because Peace and Turin have had no interaction with each other yet both have defended each other... why would they both be assuming I am scum and they are town? This only makes sense if they are masons or mafia. I'm guessing the latter based on their refusal to be transparent and dissect the gameplay within the thread, instead me-too-ing and OMGUSing and ignoring a large portion of the game's activity up to this point (Turin even moreso). 

 

02 - Cloud (mentored by Darthe)

Opening was timid but doesn't bother me on second read. The chat between Cloud and Leelou felt natural. He could be posting just to get posts on the board when the game starts like #22 and #23. This isn't damning by itself, though, more of a supplement. Not sure what Cloud meant by me chasing shadows in #50. I like that he asked for more details from Theo in #75, but the fact that it all just falls flat bothers me. He inadvertently defends me in #107 when he says he disagrees with Elf's comment that OP analysis is scummy. Has decent reasoning in #110: I can see why he votes for Elf in that same post, so that vote feels natural. Cloud's reasoning against Elf in #141 is fluid; he's a town lean of mine. 

 

03 - Krak (mentored by Verb)

Opening was fine in #30. Says Cloud has the scummiest intro in #44. I don't think it's the scummiest. @Krak, was this a meta read on Cloud?

 

04 - GoldenEyes (mentored by Despothera)

Self conscious opening in #29. I have no idea what he's saying in #65, looks spammy.

 

06 - Leelou (mentored by Wombat)

Opening seemed okay to me. Her chatter with others still feels natural and not forced by the time I enter the thread. She rebuffs me right off the bat, which is probably more town indicative than not; mafia would be more likely to sheep me (since I'm asking people to do so) and observe if I lead a mislynch to start with. It sucks that she won't try to analyze OP's though. Leeloo is getting a little too off-topic for my liking around the time #84 comes around. Votes for Nol in #104; he hasn't posted yet. Why not vote for someone else who hasn't posted like dan? Could be something, could be nothing. She's still jokey around #117 but at least comments on how Elf was backpedaling on suspicion of me. Still grinding against me in #126, but it feels genuine. Leelou is my first comfortable town read. (Looks like Cloud agrees with me in #128 and Peace grinds against that.)

 

07 - Theodora (mentored by Key)

Lame opening in #12. Being friendly with Blackhoof right off the bat in that post. THEN calls Hoof scummy in #74. Not that I... blame her... but this could be a case of scum-on-scum jostling. This happens surprisingly often in early game, where mafia will point out something dumb that mafia have done and not follow up on their suspicions but later can say "hah! I knew it!" When Cloud asks about it, she instantly backs down. Which is funny, since that Hoof post pinged me hard. I would expect a townie to probe into it a bit more? 

 

08 - Elffern (mentored by Dap)

Opening is corny but not scummy in #26. Disappears for a while and then calls me too eager in #93. But that's not the most interesting part... saying Hoof is obviously scummy and not doing anything about it is. Is Hoof the least valuable player in every game or something? People don't seem to take his antics seriously, which could be dangerous if he gets to coast to endgame without serious scrutiny. Elf throws a little suspicion on me in #106 by saying that OP analysis is looking for an easy excuse to lynch. But what bothers me is the way Elf instantly retracts once Cloud disagrees. Is Elf a very timid player?

 

Elf reappears in #137 and defends and says "I haven't seen anything else suspicious." I dislike that post a lot. He defends himself, says he's got nothing to add, and adds misdirection by asking Peace to explain himself when I questioned him. Hmm. His defense is getting a little too fluffy for my liking in #153 and #154. Comments like "maybe I'm rusty." I'm noticing he tends to end posts with a misdirection question. Elf's vote for Peace in #176 is OMGUSing I think, which is kinda funny. 

 

Elf is still trying to get info out of Peace by #186, so I am doubting that they would be scumbros. 

 

09 - Hally (mentored by Yates)

Opening post #27 pinged me on second read considering how little has been said by Hallia. It's both off-topic and me-too-ing the friendly chat that Theo and Hoof had already. Notably, Hally joins in on Hoof's spam-fest in #53. 

 

11 - dansyc (mentored by Kaylee)

No posts yet.

 

12 - Nolder

Appears in #165, hella late. He goes after Cloud right away. Throws out some fluffy comments in #178 but I agree with what he says about Peace here. I'm noticing that he's grinding against Cloud and Leelou, two of my town reads so far, so I'll be curious to see how that develops. Grinding against Peace and Turin is good, I think. Is Nolder an inexperienced player? 

 

13 - BlackHoof

Weak opening in #8 and #11. I'm not a fan of the cthulu jokey stuff. Post #51 just reeks of bullshit trying-too-hard-to-be-harmless stuff. He outright ignores any attempts at discussing the game so far. He's still spammy in #85, but what pings me about this is his comment "normally you would be on the money" regarding him being scummy. Who the hell writes a comment like this? It's too self conscious. Votes Hallia right off the bat in D1 #92 for literally no reason. Really stupid. But what's stupider is how this reinforces the spam-party that Theo, Hoof, and Hally are having now. I'm finding it to be a little too... comfy. More spam in #102. The spam is pinging me harder now. 

 

14 - Turin (advised by Pray)

#88 is his opening... to wish a merry christmas? Whatever. He's gone for a while and comes back in #169 asking why his opening looks busy and what that means. So we've got >150 posts and he only cares to defend himself in a pretty lousy way? Ping! Also refuses my attempt to start a wagon on Peace in #170. Good to keep in mind for later. He's self conscious and sassing me for lousy reasons (like Peace was) in #173... and then mentions how he's NOT defending Peace. Ping pong! 

 

Turin returns in #188 and is once again defensive and shows no interest in getting to the bottom of things. His first paragraph is about personal attacks and only defends himself and OMGUS's me without looking around the rest of the thread. Bad ping. I'm noticing Peace and Turin have yet to interact with each other. In #191 he posts about how he dislikes people who "teach" and links me to Nolder. It's hard to follow his logic in that post. He ends it by saying he'll be out for a while, which also pings me, as mafia likes to "appear" active without actually being active, and thus tends to check out. It matches his vibe of really only being defensive so far, and having defended Peace despite not having communicated with him at all. 

 

 

tl;dr: Town leans on Leelou and Cloud; scum leans on Peace and Turin who I think are either aligned or Turin is doing the scum-buddying-town thing. 

 

Quoting this to say I will read it later and hopefully people will remind me if I forget.

If I haven't said I read it in thread then I haven't read it yet.

 

 

Not sure if you've done this yet, but here's a reminder.

 

 

 

Nolders refusal to vote one of the larger trains is suspicious.

Nolder, can you explain why you were trying to start a brand new train just before the deadline?

 

This.

 

 

 

*Edited to condense.

[Blackhoof]

Nol is looking bad to me, and the votes on krak so close to deadline were blatantly pointless. Rhey dont ping as much as Nolder seemingly doing anything he could to get s train going that wasnt his own or golden's.

 

I second Peace's question, why vote theo? For inactivity, no less? Not a pro-town move at all.

 

 

 

 

 

There's a lot of votes on Nolder. If he flips town we should go after Hallie.

I don't like this post. Why would Hallia be scum if Nolder flips town? It sounds like you are trying to set up lynches.

Nolder - 7 - BFG, Elf, Hally, Hoof, Cloud, Leelou, Golden

 

Because if he's town, then a few probable townies now have a scum read on Hallia: Leelou, Nolder, myself. The wagon on Nolder went a little too smoothly, IMO. BFG (confirmed town) started it, another probable townie (Elf) got on, and then some grays/scum leans piled on it. Hallie, Hoof... Golden being on the end of that wagon seals the deal in my mind that Nolder is town (assuming Golden is mafia, which his low activity, weird interaction with Via, and behavior just now leads me to believe). Interactions-based reads can change a lot based on new info.

 

I'm also uncomfortable with it because high scum suspects (Krak, Turin) aren't on the wagon.

Golden could have jumped on to a)save himself or b)bus his scummate or even c)make nol look good.

[Turin Turambar]

@BFG #517:

 

 

Here I quoted the two posts that Turin wrote on page 10. Now allow me to point out I where I disagree with him.

 

 

First of all re personal attacks. I personally do not like or tend to employ them. I do treat everything on thread as gameplay. My main point was that Tommy was being hypocritical as I believe saying someone is a poor player (i.e. you suck at mafia ) is a personal attack. to then get hurt about Peace calling him out on ego was a bit much to me. Like a nerve was struck or he was worried his ploy was failing(worse in game IMO). That he now is after me after I called him on it and am refuting his(or anyone's with the exception of BFG who is confirmed) right to lead the town at this time is anti-town in itself. 

 

As to what Nolder and Csarmi have said. Fair enough. *hands over 5 more imaginary points to BG*

 

Few thoughts.

 

I forgot 2+2 was a poker forum since I only play mafia there and nothing else

 

I don't think elf is particularly scummy in her defense, it seems like something I would write, so that's good

 

Commenting on someone's play style is not a personal attack, it's precisely game related. Getting snippy about my ego qualifies as personal though

 

Darthe is an asshole

 

I have to figure out who is grinding against me due to actual dislike for my grandeur or due to being scum

 

Re: the busy question... I've noticed that mafia tend to enter the thread after having read everything and town just jumps in

 

Turin's self-conscious "not a defense" of Peace is AIDS. The way peace responded to me seemed non-bullshitty so I could swing toward this being Turin as mafia defending a townie for cred, while also indicting another townie AND leaving the floor open to later lynching Peace because of the wording suggesting Turin thinks Peace could still be mafia. Win-win mafia play.

 

##Vote Turin

 

*** Elect Tom for mayor ***

 

That is all

I doubt that anyone on here would forget that this is a fantasy novel website. Even those that just have come in to play mafia usually at least poke fun about being amongst the "geeks"

 

Something that you wrote. Maybe you did... 

 

direct inrerence, but I see it as an unneeded attack and also gameplay.

 

Darthe is a lovable demented crazy man. Cloud may indeed be mafia tho.

 

Both??? The big facade is great for mafia to hide behind.

 

Why wouldn't town read the thread? That would just be lazy play. Townies should read the thread to look for slips/pings/oddities. But thank you for your clarification.

 

AIDS??? I am assuming this is a term for really bad on a site you play? but well done on taking it there. Of course I think that Peace could be mafia. I only know BFG's alignment aside from my own. 

 

well, if you want to be elected then you must be asking people to vote for you... I aim to please.                                      

 

 

        ##Tommy

 

 

 

I think that Tommy's entire act is just that. trying to lead the town down the primrose path. I have seen skilled players do it when Mafia and If you can get the sheep to follow it works very well. 

 

I only agree with Turin about the personal attack bit.

 

The rest I mostly disagree with:

 

- It looks like Turin is trying to descredit Tom because he forgot that another forum also was a poker website. Sounds cheap.

- He is implying that Elf and Tom are teammates without backing it up. Turin appears to be fond of using these comments to pressure people.

- They disagree what justifies as a personal attack and what not. I think this is fair because the matter is very subjective.

- He says that I may be mafia. You can literally say this about everyone in the game except for BFG. I see no reason why he put his "read" on me in here except to just appear to be scumhunting.

- I actually agree with his next comment that it would be a good place for his mafia to hide behind. 

- I have seen a lot of townies jump into a game without having read the entire thread first. I think there is a certain pressure from the mafia team to know what is going on and they usually also inform each other of recent events through the QT.

- Another safe response by saying that Peace could be mafia, and that he only knows his own and BFG's allignment.

- Again I disagree that trying to take on the role of town captain automatically makes someone scum.

- And lastly he is giving a vague example how it all went wrong when someone was doing the thing Tommy is trying to do. Of course you shouldn't trust someone who is trying to take the lead, but you do that by actually analyzing that person's play and not just coming to the conclusion that if he is trying to lead the town he must be scum.

 

 

Stick to teaching the rest of your team on your QT for now please. 

 

 

And BTW, I think I said I've seen skilled players do it to great effect, not that you were doing that now. I further disagree that there is any one way to play mafia. So trying to imprint your playstyle on others is not in the best interests of the game itself. It may be in your own best interest as it makes it easier to play with others that play a similar style. You and nolder going  all "sole arbiter of play" here is pinging quite loudly to me. 

 

If you are not sane enough to realise where you are at any particular time then maybe you are not the best choice to follow. And it was more along the lines that you used Peace's comment about poker as a means to attempt to distract you when again you were the first to mention it. So maybe you shouldn't introduce things that you don't wish to talk about? 

 

From the mouths of babes appear some of the most universal truths...

 

Carry on. I shall be out for a bit

 

- He is again implying that Tom and a couple of other people are mafia in a jokingly way without backing it up with any kind of convincing argumentation.

- I agree with Turin that there isn't just one way to play mafia, and I personally find mafia as a game enjoyable because every player has a different playstyle. I however don't see how acting like the sole arbiter means that someone is again mafia. It's a null tell in my opinon.

- He is trying to discredit Tom because of his chaotic playstyle, and he is again attacking him because he forgot that 2+2 also functions as a poker site.

First part:

1.) Wrong I was trying to discredit Tom because he accused  Peace of trying to distract him by mentioning poker when he brought up the fact that he frequents a poker website. Maybe I am in the minority in this but I wouldn't go to another site just to play more mafia unless I thought I would also enjoy other activities on the sire.

2.) my thought process is maybe a bit off here, but it was more a chance to tweak at Tommy because he struck me as a big ego player. Many of them hate to have their ego bruised. it is as follows: Tommy has big ego>Say he did co-write it on their QT>It is conceivable that he would like to get credit (at least on his QT) for tweaking town in manner like this. It is my experience that some players will do a few extra things just to have a little more fun. It is a little thing overall for me however.

3.) Fair enough

4.) It was more a matter that Darthe happened to be your mentor. Also that you were doing things(buddying Tommy mainly) that gave me a mafia feel to you.

5.) This seems a slight contradiction to me. You say that there is pressure from the mafia teammates to know what is going on and then state that the mafia will be putting out pertinent facts in the QT meaning that you don't necessarily need to read all the thread in order to jump in. The funny thing about all of this is that the situation in question (my mentioning something in your post, the immediate post before mine) did NOT require me to read anything except that post if I was on my computer at the time. So you could say that I only appeared to read the thread. wrap your head around that.

6.) Is it not true however? 

7.) Not necessarily scum for trying to become town leader, but needing to be watched before giving them that title. 

8.) Exactly what I wanted to do. Analyze his play and decide for myself if I thought I trusted him. there were pings initially so I chose to dig my heels in a little. My point on your play was that you were usuing the thought process of follow first ask questions later. This of course merely my opinion.

 

Second part:

1.) Purely a tweak at Tommy. He is a big boy and can obviously handle it.

2.) The tactic is used as a means to beat opposition into submission. combine the arbiter of play and the town leader in one and you have lemmings.

3.) He stated that he might not be sane> why should we follow a crazy person? the poker site thing was already addressed but you appear to have dismissed my point. so no worries.  

 

It still looks to me like your main thought of why I am mafia (or thought that) was that I attacked Tommy, a player you had a "town read" on early on D1. You have since stated that you are NOT masons with him so I find it difficult to see how you are so trusting in any read from that early in the game to defend him so hard. 

 

I don't have a lot of time so I will respond to the most important bits right now: 

 

@Turin #524: 

 

Fair enough. We disagree on what constitutes as scummy play and that is fine with me. I'm also not fond of posting things just for reactions and I agree with you that it makes you lose credibility which is very difficult to gain back. I however didn't say anything I didn't stand behind in my post to Golden. I do think that Effie is town, and I didn't see why he was pushing for her lynch after I backed away from her. The way that I was fishing for reactions is in the presentation of my post to him. I decided to post in an arrogant way to see how convinced he was of Effie's mafianess, but I have to admit that I didn't get any good result from him because he reacted very emotional.

 

Of course I refuse to play your little mindgame. I never said that I was the greatest scumhunter in the game. I said that I was arguably the most effective scumhunter so far, meaning that I have been hunting the most and trying my best to establish good reads. I don't think that I'm the best player in this game, not by a long shot, but I do try my best to improve my play. I say this because I can easily be wrong about my reads and following you in your game can only lead to disaster because the entire discussion would be centered around me and the mafia would have a very easy excuse to hide their votes behind my actions. You seem to be awfully sure that I will flip mafia because of your proposal to play this game which I think is very anti-town, and yet I haven't seen any good argument from you why I'm mafia or any vote on me to back up your claims.

 

So you do not see that just because someone is cleared in your mind that someone else might still think they are mafia? that is a very dangerous mindset for this game. It leads to disregarding what people are saying which leads to mislynches and to mafia victory. What did you think of Golden's reply? I don't think you voted him right away. I could be wrong there tho.

 

It was never a mindgame. You defended your actions in defending Tom by stating that it was your townhunting ability. That you were the most effective scumhunter in the game. Doing your best is exactly what everyone needs to do. Do you not see that in making those statements like "you can't be serious for voting Elf" or "when do we lynch Turin and Hoof" that you are giving the mafia places to hide as well? They can still be clumsy and get caught following where you lead but it aids them in their quest to stay hidden amongst the town. And since the night began you have now given a list of who the mafia are and your reasoning(some I do agree with) So you obviously are confident in your choices. So why now and not then. you seemed very confident when you gave those most recent reads. No hemming or hawwing about the possibility of being wrong. 

 

Why I see you as potential mafia:

1.) extreme buddying to Tommy including chainsaw defense for him against Elf originally and then me. THIS is the main thing that bugs me. It was too soon to give this much trust to anyone without a special reason. You have denied being masons so that aint it. You can't have viewed him as town as it is D1. that aint it. it just doesn't make sense.

2.) the string of statements  "for reactions"  Just like I don't like Krak for saying his vote was for reactions when he followed you guys onto Hoof. Like I said before it feels like your are floating ideas and then only standing by the ones that gain traction.

 

As someone that has done a fair share of buddying on occasion, I kind of know what it looks like.

 

VoteCount Day01#14

 

 

01 - Peace: -> Elf -> Golden

02 - Cloud: -> Elf -> Turin -> Hoof -> Turin

03 - Krak: -> Cloud -> Hoof -> NULL

04 - GoldenEyes: -> Elf -> Via -> NULL

05 - TommyRod: -> Peace -> Turin -> Hoof -> NULL -> Nolder -> Hally

06 - Leelou: -> Nolder -> Hally

07 - Theodora: -> Golden

08 - Elffern: -> Peace -> NULL -> Nolder

09 - Hally: -> Golden -> Nolder

10 - BFG: -> Golden -> NULL -> Nolder

11 - Via: -> Golden

12 - Nolder: -> Hally

13 - BlackHoof: -> Peace -> Nolder

14 - Turin: -> Tommy -> NULL -> Krak

 

 

 

Golden - 3 - Peace, Thea, Via

Hally - 3 - Nolder, Leelou, Tommy

Turin - 1 - Cloud

Nolder - 4 - BFG, Elf, Hally, Hoof

Krak - 1 - Turin

 

Not voting: Krak, Golden

8 to lynch.

Deadline: 2013-12-29, 20:00 GMT

Countdown: http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20131229T21&p0=50&msg=ChristmasMM-D1

 

In 8 hours and 32 minutes.

quoted to show where the VC was at the time of his posting.  Hey does that mean you followed me onto voting Krak? lol

[Hallia]

In hindsight, relieved was probably the better word

[GoldeneyesND]

No party can contain me.

YOU KNOW IT!

 

 

Scum rules Town drools.

[csarmi]

As a special holiday allowance, I'm being very flexible with accepting night actions. Things are going to change once new year breaks.

[csarmi]

Warning.

 

Mod' s just had a tooth pulled. Will be grumpy. And might be inactive.

 

Step lightly and be good.

[Blackhoof]

I would give you a cookie, but you don't have a tooth....

 

so here is a cookie milkshake instead!

 

[csarmi]

Thanks. I can't drink or eat anything with milk in it for about three days.

[Blackhoof]

well..... that is a tad awkward.... 

[csarmi]

It's dawn. Do not post.

[csarmi]

Key is replacing Thea.

[csarmi]

...

 

 

It was Turin's turn for karaoke. He was halfway through "Tubthumping" when the phone rang.

'Really? But that's impossible! I'm sure I turned it off.' He rushes off the party, clearly alarmed, leaving his invitation car behind.

 

Turin, Vanilla Town has left the party.

 

...

 

It's day 2. There is no deadline in effect. With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

 

[You may post now]

[Blackhoof]

Interesting.

 

This definitely casts Tommy and Cloud in a bad light, but I think that they were just mistaken. Like I said, town on town violence. In fact the mafia did us a favour by NK'ing turin- it removes that distracting fight, which Turin seemed to be losing anyway.

 

As my second scum suspect, however, I will vote nolder

 

##Vote nolder

[keyholder21]

Hey everyone. I've been sorta following along, but I'll need some time to catch up. I have the baby this week, so it'll more likely be quick catchups on my phone when he's napping. I'll make sure to get to it today when he goes down.

[Blackhoof]

38 pages by the end of night 1? good luck key :P hahaha

[BFG]

Welcome Key.

[csarmi]

Don't worry Key. Half of that is me spamming. Just ignore those and you'll be good.

[BFG]

Don't drink the punch

[BFG]

Interesting.

 

This definitely casts Tommy and Cloud in a bad light, but I think that they were just mistaken. Like I said, town on town violence. In fact the mafia did us a favour by NK'ing turin- it removes that distracting fight, which Turin seemed to be losing anyway.

 

As my second scum suspect, however, I will vote nolder

 

##Vote nolder

[BFG]

 

Interesting.

 

This definitely casts Tommy and Cloud in a bad light, but I think that they were just mistaken. Like I said, town on town violence. In fact the mafia did us a favour by NK'ing turin- it removes that distracting fight, which Turin seemed to be losing anyway.

 

As my second scum suspect, however, I will vote nolder

 

##Vote nolder

 

 

 

Why