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Did they ever explain how Olver was able to sound the horn?


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Let me put my non-acceptance in terms I hope all of you will accept. In all the versions of the Wheel, perhaps reachable by Portal Stone, perhaps not, is a version of the Wheel where everything happened that happened in your books, but Rand walked away(rode away) in his own body, Illusioned by Alivia to look like Moridin, Illusioned so well, Rand had a hand again. I just happened to get that copy of A Memory of Light. How lucky can you get?

To put it another way, it didn't end the way you wanted it to, so you just stick your fingers in your ears and say "lalala I'm not listening" whenever people point out that the text is very clear about what happened, whether you like it or not. Considering your other theories, I'm not surprised. And you still haven't addressed my earlier point, that this is functionally no different to a body swap as Rand is still apparently dead and Moridin's body is missing. Creating a functional hand from the OP requires as much invention as a body swap anyway, so your theory amounts to a needlessly complicated way of arriving at the same destination.

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You are certainly free to look at it that way, Mr Ares. I spent twenty years and hundreds of dollars waiting for this book, so I will consider it ended the way I want it to end. The alternative is to feel so betrayed by the author that I take all the books and burn them. The body swap was the unnecessary complication. It's just a new way for the hero to die once the story was over. But I'll accept it as long as you promise that his body grows back!!!! (Pouts, sucks his thumb).

Do you actually enjoy the concept of a body swap? Or are people just being contrary, because they think I'm being contrary?

And the text said "Moridin was being burned as the Dragon Reborn". The text is in my favor, as I see it. And you're just jealous you didn't come up with the BelTaim theory yourself :rolleyes: . (kidding of course).

And Merry Christmas.

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You are certainly free to look at it that way, Mr Ares. I spent twenty years and hundreds of dollars waiting for this book, so I will consider it ended the way I want it to end. The alternative is to feel so betrayed by the author that I take all the books and burn them. The body swap was the unnecessary complication. It's just a new way for the hero to die once the story was over. But I'll accept it as long as you promise that his body grows back!!!! (Pouts, sucks his thumb).

Do you actually enjoy the concept of a body swap? Or are people just being contrary, because they think I'm being contrary?

And the text said "Moridin was being burned as the Dragon Reborn". The text is in my favor, as I see it. And you're just jealous you didn't come up with the BelTaim theory yourself :rolleyes: . (kidding of course).

And Merry Christmas.

It's not about if you enjoyed it, it's about what happened. There are plot twists and revelations that I'm not keen on, but what the author chose to write and what I want to read are not always in alignment. You can burn the books and feel betrayed if you prefer. Despite the years I spent on this series, despite the money I spent on this series, it didn't end the way I wanted it to, but my having problems with how it ended doesn't magically change the ending to what I would prefer it to be. It's not about like and dislike, it's about right and wrong - and you are wrong. The text says that Rand died, and had been dying for a while before it happened. Hence Nynaeve saying it's not fair that he is dying while the other one lives (which would not make sense if she was talking about Moridin dying and Rand getting better). That the funeral was for his body is pretty clear - Moridin is being burnt in Rand's body, or Moridin is being burnt in Moridin's body Illusioned to look like Rand's (it's explicitly stated to be Rand's corpse). Either Rand is in a body with two working hands after an unprecedented body swap, or Rand is in a body with one real hand and an unprecedented OP hand. And who has the ability to make such a hand anyway, of those who know the truth? And the wounds in his side have Healed, something previously beyond Nynaeve's capabilities. For either explanation to work, there has to be something new, something unprecedented. Given that Rand appears to be in Moridin's body, what are the indicators that this is an illusion, that he is really in his own Healed, two handed body?

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I have to agree, Rand's POV about no pain for the first time in forever, to me makes it pretty clear he is actually in Mordin's body and it isn't just something to do with the OP, NY is clearly the best healer about and its clear she hasn't done anything to takeaway Rand's pain.. She is certain Rand is dead and is suspicious by his three women's reactions.   Moridin soul got stuffed in Rand's body and Rand somehow got stuffed in Moridin.  My assumption was BS didn't go into a lot of detail about how the body swap happened because RJ might not of left a lot of detail about it.  That's just my guess, I have been known to be wrong from time to time.  :rolleyes:  Sure a lot is confusing such as how did Rand know it would happen (he didn't really seem surprised to be in Moridin's body, he seemed more surprised by the lack of pain), what was Alivia told so she would leave the stuff he would need, and neither of Rand's 3 women seemed surprised he didn't die (did he warn them before hand, or maybe Min warned them)

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 and neither of Rand's 3 women seemed surprised he didn't die (did he warn them before hand, or maybe Min warned them)

 

Well there is the bond so it seems likely they would have known....

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I have to agree, Rand's POV about no pain for the first time in forever, to me makes it pretty clear he is actually in Mordin's body and it isn't just something to do with the OP, NY is clearly the best healer about and its clear she hasn't done anything to takeaway Rand's pain.. She is certain Rand is dead and is suspicious by his three women's reactions.   Moridin soul got stuffed in Rand's body and Rand somehow got stuffed in Moridin.  My assumption was BS didn't go into a lot of detail about how the body swap happened because RJ might not of left a lot of detail about it.  That's just my guess, I have been known to be wrong from time to time.  :rolleyes:  Sure a lot is confusing such as how did Rand know it would happen (he didn't really seem surprised to be in Moridin's body, he seemed more surprised by the lack of pain), what was Alivia told so she would leave the stuff he would need, and neither of Rand's 3 women seemed surprised he didn't die (did he warn them before hand, or maybe Min warned them)

 

I would guess he knew it would happen because of something the Finns told him.  Given that he had a post TG escape plan I would assume that he either made the body swap happen or at least helped in along.

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Well yes there as the bond, but the lack of surprise or even seeming to care he was dieing leads me to believe this didn't come as a surprise to them.

 

 

 

Since he had Alivia leave him stuff it couldn't of been spur of the moment.

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How was Olver able to blow the horn? How about pure adrenalin? That poor kid was terrified...

 

Balefire has weird and unpredictable effects on the pattern. Cutting someone out of the pattern may undo some of their recent actions, but it doesn't necessarily undo things that may have happened as a side effect to those actions.

 

Take, for instance, when Rahvin killed Mat, Mat's death unlinked him from the horn. Then when Rand cut Rahvin out of the pattern with Balefire, it was soon enough to "unkill" Mat, but it didn't restore Mat's severance from the horn. The horn is a strange artifact (is it ter'angreal?) whose workings aren't completely understood, but apparently a severed link by death cannot be undone, even by balefire causing you to be brought back to life.

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Rand totally escaped in Moridin's body. The references to being pain-free and use of his other hand suggest that. Cadsuane also knew.

 

What's less clear to me is, did this trap Moridin into continuing the existence that he was oh so desperately trying to end, or did it allow the death he'd been wanting via Rand's old body? But maybe even more importantly, does it matter? Somewhere near the end, Rand discovers that the fate of man is the ability to choose, because without that, he is a mere puppet. Does that not imply the ending is whatever you want it to be? It's not the ending; it's an ending, for there are no beginnings nor endings to the Wheel of Time.

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You are certainly free to look at it that way, Mr Ares. I spent twenty years and hundreds of dollars waiting for this book, so I will consider it ended the way I want it to end. The alternative is to feel so betrayed by the author that I take all the books and burn them. The body swap was the unnecessary complication. It's just a new way for the hero to die once the story was over. But I'll accept it as long as you promise that his body grows back!!!! (Pouts, sucks his thumb).

Do you actually enjoy the concept of a body swap? Or are people just being contrary, because they think I'm being contrary?

And the text said "Moridin was being burned as the Dragon Reborn". The text is in my favor, as I see it. And you're just jealous you didn't come up with the BelTaim theory yourself :rolleyes: . (kidding of course).

And Merry Christmas.

It's not about if you enjoyed it, it's about what happened. There are plot twists and revelations that I'm not keen on, but what the author chose to write and what I want to read are not always in alignment. You can burn the books and feel betrayed if you prefer. Despite the years I spent on this series, despite the money I spent on this series, it didn't end the way I wanted it to, but my having problems with how it ended doesn't magically change the ending to what I would prefer it to be. It's not about like and dislike, it's about right and wrong - and you are wrong. The text says that Rand died, and had been dying for a while before it happened. Hence Nynaeve saying it's not fair that he is dying while the other one lives (which would not make sense if she was talking about Moridin dying and Rand getting better). That the funeral was for his body is pretty clear - Moridin is being burnt in Rand's body, or Moridin is being burnt in Moridin's body Illusioned to look like Rand's (it's explicitly stated to be Rand's corpse). Either Rand is in a body with two working hands after an unprecedented body swap, or Rand is in a body with one real hand and an unprecedented OP hand. And who has the ability to make such a hand anyway, of those who know the truth? And the wounds in his side have Healed, something previously beyond Nynaeve's capabilities. For either explanation to work, there has to be something new, something unprecedented. Given that Rand appears to be in Moridin's body, what are the indicators that this is an illusion, that he is really in his own Healed, two handed body?

 

For once, Mr Ares, something you wrote sort of makes sense. Yet I still came to the conclusion the body swap didn't occur. Why?

No pain/no wounds: both the DO and mashadar are gone. Any surviving Shadowspawn would not have enough residual effect for the wounds to draw on to maintain their existence. I.e. Fain's death and the closing of the Bore (possibly helped by Alivia's helping him "die" ) Healed them. As for the pain of the Dragon's, they are gone: He can no longer channel (during this lifetime) so he no longer needs them. I.e. burning out/completing his task has removed them. As for the Illusioning itself, Rand has earned some Creator-given peace and quiet (no one can argue against that). So he wears a new face, a gift from the Creator, but he still gets to be himself. The text does make that plain: "Rand al'Thor--just Rand al'Thor".  He's made up for his error as Lews Therin, so the Creator lets him escape from all he had to become by hiding his identity. To me, it was not much of a stretch that his hand either regrew as a reward or was replaced with an "OP" hand. And I purely thought Alivia was going to do some channeling to "help him die". Giving him a sword, some coin and a horse? Min had a vision about that? The thing that truly sealed it for me though, was the Warder bond. How could that jump from corpus to corpus? Granted, the Bore and its Sealing are super special, but a Bonded body swap did not even cross my mind (given how little I am on-line, if I had ever heard of that possibility before [probably] I had forgotten it). If the Creator could arrange a Bonded body swap, surely he could have brought about my theory, too. I mean, they surely could replace lost limbs in the AOL. I interpreted "Moridin was being burned as the Dragon Reborn" to include the corpse. In a different body, he's not Moridin (Ishy, or whatever name the DO would have given him for his third body.) It wasn't until I talked to another reader that I began to think that a BBS might have been what he was driving at. To my horror, everyone seems to say that is the official version. (Sigh).

My reading of the text may be in the minority, but I came by mine opinion honestly.

 

And Mr Ares, avoiding feeling betrayed by an author you have been reading for twenty years is certainly worth the effort. The ending of the Dune books.... No, no one wants me to feel that. I had to invent a mental device to deal with the betrayal of Frank Herbert. As a consequence of that betrayal, I will not read anything by Kevin J. Anderson because he worked with Brian Herbert, who wrote more stories in the Dune Realms.... May you never, ever, ever feel as betrayed as i felt when I finished my last Dune book. I would not wish that feeling upon you, not upon mine ex-wife, not upon the devil himself. Well, maybe the ex... No not even her. Hell, probably, I wouldn't even wish that upon the ex-mother-in-law! That was for the Dune books: imagine feeling that for a series that had been your friend and companion for twenty years! To quote Min, "You don't want to imagine it.".

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You are certainly free to look at it that way, Mr Ares. I spent twenty years and hundreds of dollars waiting for this book, so I will consider it ended the way I want it to end. The alternative is to feel so betrayed by the author that I take all the books and burn them. The body swap was the unnecessary complication. It's just a new way for the hero to die once the story was over. But I'll accept it as long as you promise that his body grows back!!!! (Pouts, sucks his thumb).

Do you actually enjoy the concept of a body swap? Or are people just being contrary, because they think I'm being contrary?

And the text said "Moridin was being burned as the Dragon Reborn". The text is in my favor, as I see it. And you're just jealous you didn't come up with the BelTaim theory yourself :rolleyes: . (kidding of course).

And Merry Christmas.

It's not about if you enjoyed it, it's about what happened. There are plot twists and revelations that I'm not keen on, but what the author chose to write and what I want to read are not always in alignment. You can burn the books and feel betrayed if you prefer. Despite the years I spent on this series, despite the money I spent on this series, it didn't end the way I wanted it to, but my having problems with how it ended doesn't magically change the ending to what I would prefer it to be. It's not about like and dislike, it's about right and wrong - and you are wrong. The text says that Rand died, and had been dying for a while before it happened. Hence Nynaeve saying it's not fair that he is dying while the other one lives (which would not make sense if she was talking about Moridin dying and Rand getting better). That the funeral was for his body is pretty clear - Moridin is being burnt in Rand's body, or Moridin is being burnt in Moridin's body Illusioned to look like Rand's (it's explicitly stated to be Rand's corpse). Either Rand is in a body with two working hands after an unprecedented body swap, or Rand is in a body with one real hand and an unprecedented OP hand. And who has the ability to make such a hand anyway, of those who know the truth? And the wounds in his side have Healed, something previously beyond Nynaeve's capabilities. For either explanation to work, there has to be something new, something unprecedented. Given that Rand appears to be in Moridin's body, what are the indicators that this is an illusion, that he is really in his own Healed, two handed body?

 

For once, Mr Ares, something you wrote sort of makes sense. Yet I still came to the conclusion the body swap didn't occur. Why?

No pain/no wounds: both the DO and mashadar are gone. Any surviving Shadowspawn would not have enough residual effect for the wounds to draw on to maintain their existence. I.e. Fain's death and the closing of the Bore (possibly helped by Alivia's helping him "die" ) Healed them. As for the pain of the Dragon's, they are gone: He can no longer channel (during this lifetime) so he no longer needs them. I.e. burning out/completing his task has removed them. As for the Illusioning itself, Rand has earned some Creator-given peace and quiet (no one can argue against that). So he wears a new face, a gift from the Creator, but he still gets to be himself. The text does make that plain: "Rand al'Thor--just Rand al'Thor".  He's made up for his error as Lews Therin, so the Creator lets him escape from all he had to become by hiding his identity. To me, it was not much of a stretch that his hand either regrew as a reward or was replaced with an "OP" hand. And I purely thought Alivia was going to do some channeling to "help him die". Giving him a sword, some coin and a horse? Min had a vision about that? The thing that truly sealed it for me though, was the Warder bond. How could that jump from corpus to corpus? Granted, the Bore and its Sealing are super special, but a Bonded body swap did not even cross my mind (given how little I am on-line, if I had ever heard of that possibility before [probably] I had forgotten it). If the Creator could arrange a Bonded body swap, surely he could have brought about my theory, too. I mean, they surely could replace lost limbs in the AOL. I interpreted "Moridin was being burned as the Dragon Reborn" to include the corpse. In a different body, he's not Moridin (Ishy, or whatever name the DO would have given him for his third body.) It wasn't until I talked to another reader that I began to think that a BBS might have been what he was driving at. To my horror, everyone seems to say that is the official version. (Sigh).

My reading of the text may be in the minority, but I came by mine opinion honestly.

 

I'm not saying your theory wasn't come by honestly, but many people come up with theories that seem to fit well, only to be disproved later. The body being burnt looks like Rand's. The body Rand walks away in looks like Moridin's. Rand has two hands and lacks the wounds. Now, you mention the Creator doing stuff, but the implication is always that the Creator tends not to take a hand. For him to be so direct would be unusual. The bonds being transferred during a body swap is easily explained by it being a linking of souls or personalities rather than bodies (Moiraine's bond with Lan being severed was as a result of the doorway collapsing - regardless of what the bond is attached to, it's still cut because the passage it passed through doesn't exist any more. Other bonds are severed by death or severing (and given that severing is Healed by Fire and Spirit, it's likely not wholly a function of bodily damage)). The destruction of Shaisam and Shai'tan being locked out aren't enough to explain the loss of the wounds, because the wounds themselves would surely still exist, even if the evil in them didn't, and because there is no indication that the wounds would need their parent evils to still be painful to him (note how RJ stated that the destruction of Shadar Logoth neither increased nor decreased Fain's powers). Regardless of what happened, it is without precedent in the series. We must speculate. You are, of course, free to speculate however you wish. I will, of course, poke holes if I can - this leads to stronger theories, after all.

 

And Mr Ares, avoiding feeling betrayed by an author you have been reading for twenty years is certainly worth the effort. The ending of the Dune books.... No, no one wants me to feel that. I had to invent a mental device to deal with the betrayal of Frank Herbert. As a consequence of that betrayal, I will not read anything by Kevin J. Anderson because he worked with Brian Herbert, who wrote more stories in the Dune Realms.... May you never, ever, ever feel as betrayed as i felt when I finished my last Dune book. I would not wish that feeling upon you, not upon mine ex-wife, not upon the devil himself. Well, maybe the ex... No not even her. Hell, probably, I wouldn't even wish that upon the ex-mother-in-law! That was for the Dune books: imagine feeling that for a series that had been your friend and companion for twenty years! To quote Min, "You don't want to imagine it.".

I don't know if I ever could feel betrayed by an author's choices (save in cases that were directly and personally related to me). Disappointed, certainly, but betrayed? I don't even understand where that feeling would spring from. In the case of Dune, it's clear that Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson were making up far more than Brandon had to for WoT (and he's admitted how substantial his inventions and choices were). In Dune's case, the series died uncompleted with its author. In WoT's case, the published ending has a greater claim to legitimacy. It was certainly disappointing in some respects, but I can live with that.

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"It was certainly disappointing in some respects, but I can live with that."

Good for you. I can live with most of it, too.  As for the Creator's participation, well, he gave Rand the ability to light the pipe with his thoughts. The destruction of the Bore not being enough? He forged anew. We did not see what happened in the part where Rand passed out as Nakomi reached him (the Healing could have happened then). And the Creator directly blessed Rand going in "IT IS TIME", I think He said. Even if He (the Creator) did not participate directly in Rand's renewal, He could certainly have a mechanism for it. And saying the Creator would never intervene directly is not entirely plausible. (I realize those were not your exact words). He did speak to Rand. Why would He not reward His Dragon, and reward him directly? He's the person closest to the Creator in the entire Pattern.

Bonding is broken by death, nor is it possible to bond a Hero or Heroine properly called back into the Pattern by the Horn. Therefore, I have always felt the bonding was on the flesh. And what part did Alivia play in "helping him die"? It can't just be so mundane as her becoming a horse-thief. And how did she know he needed the help? The ending left a lot of opportunity for what I theorized. I suspect also, that in the AOL, regrowing a limb, or replacing it at least, was simple. Even on their way out, Aes Sedai from the AOL built a time machine (the glass columns of Rhuidean). Replacing a limb compared to that? Child's play. Even if the BBS were RJ's  idea, and not Brandon's interpretation of it (I don't know, I haven't looked at any of the things people used earlier to try to prove the point to me; I didn't want to be proven wrong and risk the feeling of betrayal) I don't think he would have told people. He didn't want to leave a world that could "be put on a shelf", I believe he said.  And I remember the Mance Rayder/Lord of Bones twist from ASOIAF.

I am glad you have not felt the feeling of betrayal. I admit, that was in my teenage years, and I invested in the story much more emotionally, and found nothing of merit when I reached the end of Chapterhouse Dune. (I remember reading he died writing the seventh book of the series, so yes, it was unfinished). It took me a week to deal with that, and perhaps I don't invest as much emotionally as I did, (but you of everyone on this page should know that I do invest emotionally to some extent) and I hope I have matured both as a reader and a writer since that week, but if you care enough about the characters in a story, and then the story does something that makes absolutely no sense in all of Hell, than you can feel betrayed. A group of imaginary friends just stuck you in the back, so to say. The BBS idea does not quite go that far, but it comes close. That's the kind of feeling that  turned Iron Man into a serial killer. "Hea-vy boots of lead, fills his victims full of dread." I was expecting a hero tale in the Dune books, since the first book was (and RJ borrowed heavily from it for TWOT, at least in outline [bene Gesserit/Aes Sedai; Kwisatz Haderach/Dragon Reborn; Fremen/Aiel) and one of prophecy. Instead I got a meaningless, plotless, Godless story, (morality-less) that had no point to me, and merely succeeded in kiliing trees.

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@sabio,

''since he had alivia leave him stuff it couldn't been spur of the moment ''

you merged two different issues here.

the escape plan was premeditated,there is no doubt about it.before rand entered the pit of doom

he did work with one assumption in mind,prepare for the worst but hope for the best,so he said

his goodbyes to his lovers and trusted friends,he even found closure with his extremely obsessive

former girlfriend,but on the same time he asked alivia to prepare provisions for his escape.

was the body swap premeditated?i honestly don't know,if hard pressed for an answer,i would say

no,the body swap was rand's spur of the moment decision.

Edited by jack of shadows
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Did Rand think he was going to live? Yes he did. Remember, when he first went to SG, he did so with the intention of killing the DO. He definitely thought he would live if he won and was prepared for it. If he lost then nothing would matter any way.

 

Was the body swap premeditated? Prolly not, at least not in an soul swapping way BUT he did know that Moridin looked just like him. Chop off the hand, burn the body a bit and he would've passed for a dead Rand. This was most likely the plan as even Rand himself seemed genuinely surprised that he was now in Moridin's body at the end.

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@leopole boothe,

so,in your opinion,was the body swap premeditated? or was it a spur of the moment decision?

 

Given that he had Alivia prepare him clothes and other necessities for his escape I would say it had to be premeditated.  I think the chain of events went something like this

 

-Rand goes through the door in Tear and asks the Aelfin how he can defeat the DO and live.  The Aelfin of course answer with some convoluted riddle.

-Through a stroke of luck Rand encounters Moridin in Shadar Logoth the two have their balefire streams cross and a connection between the tow is established.

-I can't remember when it happened exactly but I know at come point Rand figured out that Moridin was Ishaemal thus he knows that a soul can be transported from one body to another thus he starts to figure out the Aelfin's riddle.

-Rand probably realized at some point that there was a connection between Moridin and himself and theorized that this link could be used to transfer his soul into Moridin's body.  I'm sure Rand was not 100% sure that the body swap would work but he had Alivia make preparations in the event that it did.

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  As for the Creator's participation, well, he gave Rand the ability to light the pipe with his thoughts. The destruction of the Bore not being enough? He forged anew. We did not see what happened in the part where Rand passed out as Nakomi reached him (the Healing could have happened then). And the Creator directly blessed Rand going in "IT IS TIME", I think He said. Even if He (the Creator) did not participate directly in Rand's renewal, He could certainly have a mechanism for it. And saying the Creator would never intervene directly is not entirely plausible. (I realize those were not your exact words). He did speak to Rand. Why would He not reward His Dragon, and reward him directly? He's the person closest to the Creator in the entire Pattern.[/background]

 

Interview: Jan 18th, 2003

COT Signing Report - Tallis (Paraphrased)

Robert Jordan

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from...creating...the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

 

And what part did Alivia play in "helping him die"?

 

Interview: Apr 15th, 2013

Reddit AMA 2013 (Verbatim)

SakisRakis ()

 

I wondered particularly about, in the epilogue, Alivia leaving the supplies for the body-swapped Rand. I honestly had to go look up Alivia as a refresher upon seeing her name; was she included from Robert Jordan's draft, and if so, do you think he envisioned more involvement from her throughout A Memory of Light?

Brandon Sanderson

 

That scene was indeed one of the ones that Robert Jordan wrote before he passed away, and was include as is. He MIGHT have included her a tad more in other scenes, but the notes were blank on her save for this last scene, so I don't know. I know for certain that her helping Rand to die meant only leaving the items for him. It was a very small thing that fandom (perhaps by RJ's design) blew up into something much larger. The characters did too, to an extent.

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"It was certainly disappointing in some respects, but I can live with that."

Good for you. I can live with most of it, too.  As for the Creator's participation, well, he gave Rand the ability to light the pipe with his thoughts. The destruction of the Bore not being enough? He forged anew. We did not see what happened in the part where Rand passed out as Nakomi reached him (the Healing could have happened then). And the Creator directly blessed Rand going in "IT IS TIME", I think He said. Even if He (the Creator) did not participate directly in Rand's renewal, He could certainly have a mechanism for it. And saying the Creator would never intervene directly is not entirely plausible. (I realize those were not your exact words). He did speak to Rand. Why would He not reward His Dragon, and reward him directly? He's the person closest to the Creator in the entire Pattern. This requires a lot of speculation and guesswork on your part - we know Rand had the ability to light his pipe, we do not know that this was given to him by the Creator (it could be a natural side effect of what he was doing). We don't know that the Voice was the Creator's - RJ always refused to clarify - but even if it was it didn't really do anything. And why would he reward the Dragon? The Dragon is merely a corrective mechanism, same as any of the other Heroes or any ta'veren.

 

Bonding is broken by death, nor is it possible to bond a Hero or Heroine properly called back into the Pattern by the Horn. Therefore, I have always felt the bonding was on the flesh.

But death is when the soul leaves the body and passes on - the body remains. If the bond were attached to the flesh and the flesh remains, surely the bond should too? Why can one not remain bonded to a corpse?

I suspect also, that in the AOL, regrowing a limb, or replacing it at least, was simple. Even on their way out, Aes Sedai from the AOL built a time machine (the glass columns of Rhuidean). Replacing a limb compared to that? Child's play.

We know there were limits to Healing, even back then. Further, there is the question of the available tools. We know Aginor couldn't resume his Shadowspawn creation in the Third Age because he didn't have the tools to make the tools to make the tools he would need to do so. Just because something is possible with the OP, doesn't mean it can be done with the OP alone (see: flight - an OP-fueled plane works but a flying weave wouldn't). You still have the question of who Healed him? Nakomi? Given we don't really know who she is or what she's capable of, that's invention. The idea of the body swap is that it uses the bond between Rand and Moridin that was formed in SL, a bond which was an obvious Chekhov's Gun, and the body swap could be considered the firing of that gun. Narratively, a body swap works better than any other explanation, leaving fewer unanswered questions and loose ends, and requiring less invention on the part of the reader. Luckers (the creator of the body swap theory) always maintained that he thought it was cheesy, and hoped he was wrong for that reason, but that aside I don't see how or why this might cause one to feel betrayed? A well foreshadowed plot twist ends up happening? The greater betrayal is to not follow through on the promises made, by setting up plot points and then not resolving them.

 

I am glad you have not felt the feeling of betrayal. I admit, that was in my teenage years, and I invested in the story much more emotionally, and found nothing of merit when I reached the end of Chapterhouse Dune. (I remember reading he died writing the seventh book of the series, so yes, it was unfinished). It took me a week to deal with that, and perhaps I don't invest as much emotionally as I did, (but you of everyone on this page should know that I do invest emotionally to some extent) and I hope I have matured both as a reader and a writer since that week, but if you care enough about the characters in a story, and then the story does something that makes absolutely no sense in all of Hell, than you can feel betrayed. A group of imaginary friends just stuck you in the back, so to say. The BBS idea does not quite go that far, but it comes close. That's the kind of feeling that  turned Iron Man into a serial killer. "Hea-vy boots of lead, fills his victims full of dread." I was expecting a hero tale in the Dune books, since the first book was (and RJ borrowed heavily from it for TWOT, at least in outline [bene Gesserit/Aes Sedai; Kwisatz Haderach/Dragon Reborn; Fremen/Aiel) and one of prophecy. Instead I got a meaningless, plotless, Godless story, (morality-less) that had no point to me, and merely succeeded in kiliing trees.

My objection to Dune was that I simply found it boring - I couldn't engage with the writing at all, so getting through it was just a slog. Thomas Covenant was the same problem. No matter how interesting the ideas, how well developed the characters, how intricate the plot, if you find the prose to be that boring the rest just doesn't matter.

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We agree on something! Thomas Covenant sucked!

 

I cannot believe Rand went into Shayol Ghul knowing about a BBS. The Dragon ain't got that kind of Power, nor would he want it. And remember, to me, the BBS was the betrayal, not the Illusioning. There was no foreshadowing of the BBS, not to me. However, the Shadar Logoth connection was something I had not considered, not in relation to the BBS. The bond is broken by death, even when the body remains. If the BBS occurred, the Creator must have been involved; the Dragon Reborn could neither do that, nor justify it, but if the Creator did it for him. Asd to liits of Healing, this is true, but I picture the Sealing of the Bore as a Harry Potter moment: all the random factors aligned so that Voldemort faced Harry with Harry's wand, and so he was defeated; the backwash of the Sealing let Rand be Healed. That's how I picture it. The available tools argument was cogent, however. Still, Aginor might have been just as limited because the Bore was still sealed, even partially. As for the Creator not rewarding Rand: Creator good. Dark One bad. At least the DO is bad when he touches the Pattern. The difference between a Creator and a destroyer implies that the Creator would want to reward Rand. At the very least, the Creator would not simply view the Dragon Reborn as a "corrective mechanism". If He had no caring for His tools, His Heroes, He would be no better than the DO, I think.

Still, a couple questions: Chekov's Gun? I fear I do not understand the reference.

And on a completely unrelated note, I have encountered several references in British television to a thing called "Torchwood". Is that like Area 51 over here? A rumored secret government agency, facility?

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We agree on something! Thomas Covenant sucked!

 

I cannot believe Rand went into Shayol Ghul knowing about a BBS.

He didn't. The link between him and Moridin is the means by which it would be enacted, and that was largely an unknown to both men. He had no way to know he would be coming out in Moridin's body.

The Dragon ain't got that kind of Power, nor would he want it. And remember, to me, the BBS was the betrayal, not the Illusioning. There was no foreshadowing of the BBS, not to me.

The foreshadowing was there, that's why the body swap theory came into existence and stuck around. It was a solid theory.

However, the Shadar Logoth connection was something I had not considered, not in relation to the BBS. The bond is broken by death, even when the body remains. If the BBS occurred, the Creator must have been involved; the Dragon Reborn could neither do that, nor justify it, but if the Creator did it for him.

That doesn't follow. Just because Rand couldn't do it under his own power doesn't mean that the Creator must have done it for him.

As for the Creator not rewarding Rand: Creator good. Dark One bad. At least the DO is bad when he touches the Pattern. The difference between a Creator and a destroyer implies that the Creator would want to reward Rand. At the very least, the Creator would not simply view the Dragon Reborn as a "corrective mechanism". If He had no caring for His tools, His Heroes, He would be no better than the DO, I think.

I think it's a mistake to think ofthings in terms of "Creator good, Shai'tan evil". Neither is human, neither thinks in the way we do. The creator creates, then moves on - he has no reason to reward Rand. There's no reason why he should be better than Shai'tan. He is merely a being with his own goals and motivations who has created a universe. Look at Rand's thoughts on the Creator in CoT 24, where he thinks of the Creator as a gardener.

Still, a couple questions: Chekov's Gun? I fear I do not understand the reference.

Chekhov's Gun is a term for a storytelling device where things are introduced before they are needed, and are not included unless they are needed. It's named for Russian writer Anton Chekhov, who outlined the principle: "Remove everything that has no relevance to the story. If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there." In this case the link between Rand and Moridin was introduced, and should therefore have been introduced for a reason. If it is the means by which a body swap is able to occur, then it has served a purpose - the gun has been fired.

And on a completely unrelated note, I have encountered several references in British television to a thing called "Torchwood". Is that like Area 51 over here? A rumored secret government agency, facility?

Torchwood is a fictional secret government agency set up by Queen Victoria for dealing with aliens and such like. It featured in Doctor Who (of which it is an anagram) and in its own spin off show (called Torchwood). The key difference from Area 51 is, of course, that it's fictional and was deliberately created for a TV show, while Area 51 is a real place.

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Well, Area 51 is a real place, but I don't it's a real agency :wink: . Nevada is real... It was a great twist in Independence Day and Stargate: SG-1, though. The purpose of the link between them from Shadar Logoth onward was, I believe, to increase the strain upon Rand so that he would ultimately stop the Wheel of Time, using the Choedan Kal. That was Moridin's plan.The death of Sammael to the sacrifice of Semirhage was all intended to create the link so Rand would use the True Power to break the cuendillar collar and increase the influence the DO had with him. It also drove him to the 're-integration' he achieved in VoG. When he did that, the instant he destroyed the Choedan Kal, the Last Battle started. Shadowspawn had hardly been seen in the Blight for nearly a year, and then boom, the nations of the Border are awash with Trollocs. Coincidence? I think not. Still, the link does support the idea of the BBS, though I still think Rand was expecting to die--hoping to live, but expecting to die. Remember what Cadsuane told him when she told him the Black Tower was free? 

And, Mr Ares, (nearly forgot and put a period there) I agree that the Creator has His own motivations, but one of them is free will, and benevolent caring for His Creation. These are implied by the very name Creator. I don't think that Rand's opinion at that point is really a good judge of the Creator's character. People say ill things about God all the time. That doesn't mean what they say and think is true. I reckon the same would apply to an analogy for God in an analogy of the Earth.

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Chekhov's Gun is a term for a storytelling device where things are introduced before they are needed, and are not included unless they are needed. It's named for Russian writer Anton Chekhov, who outlined the principle: "Remove everything that has no relevance to the story. If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there." In this case the link between Rand and Moridin was introduced, and should therefore have been introduced for a reason. If it is the means by which a body swap is able to occur, then it has served a purpose - the gun has been fired.

 

 

 

You got this off Wiki and it's wrong.

It's supposed to be ACT not Chapter. That's a huge difference.

It's foreshadowing directly related to a specific object in its very, usually passive, presence in the beginning instead of the usual foreshadowing that is presented by a characters words or actions.

It's something that is introduced early in the story, supposed to be forgotten about, not mentioned again until it is then used, generally at the end of an Act or a climax.  

 

Either way, the mention of Chekhov's Gun in the series was due to BS's twitter comments below. It was about something introduced in tDR, it was not in reference to the Balefire bond between Rand and Moridin which didn't happen until aCoS. 

I also wouldn't classify that "bond" as a Chekhov's Gun as it was not introduced and then forgotten about. It was referenced many times through the books leading up to the swap. 

 

 

 

 

 BRANDON SANDERSON (30 SEPTEMBER 2011)

 

FINALLY done with the through line I've been working on for weeks now. Progress bar moved to 70% done.

SRINATH UPADHYAYULA

When can we expect it??? What do you think?? #reallyreallycan'twait!!

BRANDON SANDERSON

Sometime next year. I suspect they'll set a date when I give them the first draft in November.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Now, to fire a gun that has been sitting on the mantle since the middle (chapters 30-40) of book 3.

 

On another note...while going through these chapters I found a rather interesting quote from Thom.

 

TSR-31: "Kill a man who needs killing, and sometimes others pay for it. The question is, was it worth doing anyway? There's always a balance, you know. Good and evil. Light and Shadow. We would not be human if there wasn't a balance."
Edited by Finnssss
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Well, Area 51 is a real place, but I don't it's a real agency :wink: . Nevada is real... It was a great twist in Independence Day and Stargate: SG-1, though.

Area 51 isn't an agency (and no-one claims it is), it's a secret military base. Conspiracy theorists and alien hunters often think they have alien technology there (an idea used by works of fiction, such as those you reference), but though that might be far fetched (or maybe that's just what they want you to think) the place is a real base.

The purpose of the link between them from Shadar Logoth onward was, I believe, to increase the strain upon Rand so that he would ultimately stop the Wheel of Time, using the Choedan Kal. That was Moridin's plan. The death of Sammael to the sacrifice of Semirhage was all intended to create the link so Rand would use the True Power to break the cuendillar collar and increase the influence the DO had with him. It also drove him to the 're-integration' he achieved in VoG.

Rand was under immense strain anyway - the high stress of being the Dragon and the taint had pushed him to breaking point. We can say with reasonable certainty that Moridin didn't know what effect the bond would have, at least not in full - that's a plan with a lot of holes and a lot of guesswork. It can hardly be said to have played a part in the reintegration, anyway.

When he did that, the instant he destroyed the Choedan Kal, the Last Battle started. Shadowspawn had hardly been seen in the Blight for nearly a year, and then boom, the nations of the Border are awash with Trollocs. Coincidence? I think not. Still, the link does support the idea of the BBS, though I still think Rand was expecting to die--hoping to live, but expecting to die. Remember what Cadsuane told him when she told him the Black Tower was free? 

And, Mr Ares, (nearly forgot and put a period there) I agree that the Creator has His own motivations, but one of them is free will, and benevolent caring for His Creation. These are implied by the very name Creator. I don't think that Rand's opinion at that point is really a good judge of the Creator's character. People say ill things about God all the time. That doesn't mean what they say and think is true. I reckon the same would apply to an analogy for God in an analogy of the Earth.

The name Creator doesn't imply benevolent caring or free will, it implies only creation.

 

 

Chekhov's Gun is a term for a storytelling device where things are introduced before they are needed, and are not included unless they are needed. It's named for Russian writer Anton Chekhov, who outlined the principle: "Remove everything that has no relevance to the story. If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there." In this case the link between Rand and Moridin was introduced, and should therefore have been introduced for a reason. If it is the means by which a body swap is able to occur, then it has served a purpose - the gun has been fired.

You got this off Wiki and it's wrong.

It's supposed to be ACT not Chapter. That's a huge difference.

Not really. It's a minor and pedantic point, and the meaning was got across anyway. 

 

Either way, the mention of Chekhov's Gun in the series was due to BS's twitter comments below. It was about something introduced in tDR, it was not in reference to the Balefire bond between Rand and Moridin which didn't happen until aCoS. 

I also wouldn't classify that "bond" as a Chekhov's Gun as it was not introduced and then forgotten about. It was referenced many times through the books leading up to the swap.

No, Brandon mentioned an instance of Chekhov's Gun. That does not make it the only one in the series - in point of fact, the series has often made use of them. I was not referring to Brandon's comment. And Chekhov's Gun doesn't require that it be forgotten about, it requires that things not be introduced without significance. The bond was introduced, but had not yet been significant to the plot, despite being referenced. It therefore fits the criteria.

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Chekhov's Gun is a term for a storytelling device where things are introduced before they are needed, and are not included unless they are needed. It's named for Russian writer Anton Chekhov, who outlined the principle: "Remove everything that has no relevance to the story. If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there." In this case the link between Rand and Moridin was introduced, and should therefore have been introduced for a reason. If it is the means by which a body swap is able to occur, then it has served a purpose - the gun has been fired.

You got this off Wiki and it's wrong.

It's supposed to be ACT not Chapter. That's a huge difference.

Not really. It's a minor and pedantic point, and the meaning was got across anyway. 

 

Either way, the mention of Chekhov's Gun in the series was due to BS's twitter comments below. It was about something introduced in tDR, it was not in reference to the Balefire bond between Rand and Moridin which didn't happen until aCoS. 

I also wouldn't classify that "bond" as a Chekhov's Gun as it was not introduced and then forgotten about. It was referenced many times through the books leading up to the swap.

No, Brandon mentioned an instance of Chekhov's Gun. That does not make it the only one in the series - in point of fact, the series has often made use of them. I was not referring to Brandon's comment. And Chekhov's Gun doesn't require that it be forgotten about, it requires that things not be introduced without significance. The bond was introduced, but had not yet been significant to the plot, despite being referenced. It therefore fits the criteria.

 

 

Hardly pedantic when it's supposed to be used to conclude an ACT or to factor heavily in a climax. Just say you made a mistake and that I provided the correct definition or don't say anything at all.

 

And IMO the Bond doesn't fit the criteria. It IS used in significant plot issues throughout the books prior to the body swap. From Rand being able to visit Moridin's Shard, to Rand being able to use the TP to free himself from the male a'dam and to kill Semirhage, to Moridin using it to stab his own hand so Rand would drop Callandor.

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