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DRAGONMOUNT

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Dagon Thyne

Did they ever explain how Olver was able to sound the horn?

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I'm pretty sure it was that the horn was unbound from Mat when Rahvin actually killed Mat and then Rand balefired Rahvin.  At least, the Heroes seem to imply so when Mat talks to them.

Yeah Hawkwing said his hanging wasn't it, that it was a time he couldn't remember, so was the balefire incident. 

 

So the horn is not bound to the nature of balefire which would have normally reversed Mat's death completely, as if it nevered happened. 

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Yeah I never totally understood it myself, as soon as Rhavin blasted him, Mat was no longer bound to the horn, but with Rhavin getting balefired and Mat being alive again then technically the death never happened.  You would think then the link was never broken.

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But you know how people that get affected by the balefire rewind thing still remember as if the events had taken place. What if the Horn "remembers" too? It's not exactly an ordinary lump of metal.

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But you know how people that get affected by the balefire rewind thing still remember as if the events had taken place. What if the Horn "remembers" too? It's not exactly an ordinary lump of metal.

I was thinking that the horn was immune to the effects of balefire in some way.  It must be linked to why people still remember events that happened to them even if the cause was removed by balefire. 

 

I just think it would been easier to use the hanging as the cause.  How many people would have looked back at it in hindsight and remembered that Mat was actually dead.  I mean, he is called the hornsounder so much afterwards that you just assume the horn was still linked to him, but that's just me.  I think having it happen by balefire just raises too many questions that are nevered answered. 

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DIdn't see the forum Dagon, my bad. That makes sense wombat, I thought it could be either time, but I guess he actually only really died with the Rahvin one.

 

 

I'd tend to go with the the death at Rhudean.  When he was killed by Rhavin he came back because Rhavin was balefired.  This undid Rhavin's actions so it was like Mat was never killed at this time and therefore would never have been detached from the Horn. 

The Heroes specifically state it was not Rhuidean. Therefore, it was Caemlyn. Balefiring is not absolute, remember. Since the Heroes are outside the Pattern (in Tel'aran'rhiod) at least sort of outside, the effect of Mat's death was not entirely reversed. His connection to the Horn was severed, though he did not know it. Remember it was told him by the SnakeFinn: "to die and live again". That was Caemlyn. He didn't actually die in Rhuidean; CPR only works on people who are dying, not dead.

Since his death was foreseen, does that not mean that Rand owes his life to Mat as much as Mat owes his to Rand? If Mat had not been there, Rahvin's lightning strikjes Rand instead. But Mat's there, draws the lightning to him through his mucho-mongo ta'verenness, and saves Rand: that one of Mat's jobs, to be the self-repairing blown fuse. Mat saves Rand, so Rand saves Mat.

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$anderson was like, "DUDE!!!...OMG....Harriet! YO!!! I was just playing some MAGIC! - The GATHERING and thought the coolest thing EVAR would be to have OLVER blow the horn like LOL!!!"

 

Thats how I heard it anyways...

 

 

Fish

 

p.s. i will soon be addng as an official SIG that AMOL is not canon...have been personally assurrd by mods thats a perfectably acceptable SIG ;)

 

Why is everyone complaining about Book Fourteen? Rand lives, Illusioned to look like Moridin so well that he has a hand again, and the Olver twist was so PERFECT it had to come from RJ.  The beaching should be about Suian's and Gareth's dying. That sucked even worse than E & G biting it.

 

Edited by Asgard Thorin

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Rand is in Moridin's body, Thorin. It's no illusion.

Ain't buying it. Rand is in his body, Illusioned to look like Moridin. It says Moridin was burned as the Dragon Reborn, and that Alivia would "help him die". Therefore, it's his body. Why would Rand have to body swap to die? Besides, the Warder bond was on his body. Rand in Moridin's body? Ain't buying it.

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Cause Sanderson said so

Still ain't buying it. I haven't seen that, and I don't want to. That would make twenty years of story suck. Now, excuse me while I go cry.

Edited by Asgard Thorin

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Rand is in Moridin's body, Thorin. It's no illusion.

Ain't buying it. Rand is in his body, Illusioned to look like Moridin. It says Moridin was burned as the Dragon Reborn, and that Alivia would "help him die". Therefore, it's his body. Why would Rand have to body swap to die? Besides, the Warder bond was on his body. Rand in Moridin's body? Ain't buying it.

 

 

To start anew. Rand's and Ishy's souls were swapped in their bodies. The Warder bond is attached to the Soul, not the body. Look no further than Elayne/Birgitte to see the proof of this.

Rand no longer having the wound in his side and having a left hand again is no illusion.

Edited by Finnssss

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Then why is the Warder bond broken by death? The bond is attached to the flesh, not the soul. Maybe that's what Brandon said, maybe RJ wanted them to swap bodies. But I'm not accepting that. Rand would get half-a klick before Maidens went berserk hunting down the 'escaped Forsaken', and he ended up with a spear in his liver. If other people can reject Book Fourteen as 'not-canon', I can reject an idea I do not like that wasn't in the Book. And it wasn't. Respectfully, Ain't buying it.

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Then why is the Warder bond broken by death? The bond is attached to the flesh, not the soul. Maybe that's what Brandon said, maybe RJ wanted them to swap bodies. But I'm not accepting that. Rand would get half-a klick before Maidens went berserk hunting down the 'escaped Forsaken', and he ended up with a spear in his liver. If other people can reject Book Fourteen as 'not-canon', I can reject an idea I do not like that wasn't in the Book. And it wasn't. Respectfully, Ain't buying it.

 

And what "flesh" exactly did Elayne bond to?

 

The Soul goes to another realm, the tie is cut off.

Just the same as when Moiraine was cut off from Lan when the Doorway was destroyed.

One could try to make the argument that Mo passed the Bond at that moment but if that were the case, then Lan wouldn't have been affected by the cutting and wouldn't have been in the state he was afterword.

Edited by Finnssss

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Then why is the Warder bond broken by death? The bond is attached to the flesh, not the soul. Maybe that's what Brandon said, maybe RJ wanted them to swap bodies. But I'm not accepting that. Rand would get half-a klick before Maidens went berserk hunting down the 'escaped Forsaken', and he ended up with a spear in his liver. If other people can reject Book Fourteen as 'not-canon', I can reject an idea I do not like that wasn't in the Book. And it wasn't. Respectfully, Ain't buying it.

But given that the burnt body was apparently Rand's (it was his funeral at the end), and the missing body was apparently Moridin's, even if there was some sort of illusion it changes nothing in that regard - the Maidens should surely be hunting down the "escaped Chosen" anyway. What you propose is functionally no different to a body swap - Rand is apparently dead, Moridin's body is gone - it's just a more complex way of arriving at the exact same conclusion.

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Then why is the Warder bond broken by death? The bond is attached to the flesh, not the soul. Maybe that's what Brandon said, maybe RJ wanted them to swap bodies. But I'm not accepting that. Rand would get half-a klick before Maidens went berserk hunting down the 'escaped Forsaken', and he ended up with a spear in his liver. If other people can reject Book Fourteen as 'not-canon', I can reject an idea I do not like that wasn't in the Book. And it wasn't. Respectfully, Ain't buying it.

 

It's not only broken by death. Remember that Lan and Moiraine's bond was broken, despite Moiraine never dying. As for hunting Moridin... remember that virtually nobody knows who Moridin is. Even Nynaeve didn't (although she suspected he was Forsaken), and she was in the cave with him. As far as everyone else is concerned, he's the dude Rand saved. Maybe they think he's a DF, but he can't channel (so that'll rule out Forsaken for most of 'em), and the DR still saved him for whatever reason. They're likely to let him go even if they recognise(ish) him, which they're unlikely to do.

 

As far as the rest goes... you're certainly free to believe whatever you want, just as you can believe in faeries in elves in the real world. And certainly, when it comes to fiction, not everything that's explicitly stated is true in a story, and not everything that's true in a story is explicitly stated. That said, your interpretation is not particularly plausible, especially since it forces us to revise many more of our beliefs about WoT than the soul-swap does. But you can hold whatever beliefs you please. That doesn't mean the rest of us share them, or that when you assume they're canon you're going to find us agreeing.

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Then why is the Warder bond broken by death? The bond is attached to the flesh, not the soul. Maybe that's what Brandon said, maybe RJ wanted them to swap bodies. But I'm not accepting that. Rand would get half-a klick before Maidens went berserk hunting down the 'escaped Forsaken', and he ended up with a spear in his liver. If other people can reject Book Fourteen as 'not-canon', I can reject an idea I do not like that wasn't in the Book. And it wasn't. Respectfully, Ain't buying it.

 

It's not only broken by death. Remember that Lan and Moiraine's bond was broken, despite Moiraine never dying. As for hunting Moridin... remember that virtually nobody knows who Moridin is. Even Nynaeve didn't (although she suspected he was Forsaken), and she was in the cave with him. As far as everyone else is concerned, he's the dude Rand saved. Maybe they think he's a DF, but he can't channel (so that'll rule out Forsaken for most of 'em), and the DR still saved him for whatever reason. They're likely to let him go even if they recognise(ish) him, which they're unlikely to do.

 

As far as the rest goes... you're certainly free to believe whatever you want, just as you can believe in faeries in elves in the real world. And certainly, when it comes to fiction, not everything that's explicitly stated is true in a story, and not everything that's true in a story is explicitly stated. That said, your interpretation is not particularly plausible, especially since it forces us to revise many more of our beliefs about WoT than the soul-swap does. But you can hold whatever beliefs you please. That doesn't mean the rest of us share them, or that when you assume they're canon you're going to find us agreeing.

 

You are right. What I believe doesn't affect you, and vice versa. To me, the idea of a body swap was not implied by the story, nor was it intended by either author. That is what I got from the story.

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First off, no Maiden or any other Aiel for that matter are going to hunt "Moridin". Avi would put a stop to that so that point is moot.

 

Second, there have been body swap theories in one form or another floating around for almost as long as the series itself. How anyone could come in now and not "buy it" or even remotely say that it wasn't hinted at previously in the story or by either author is off their rocker IMO. 

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First off, no Maiden or any other Aiel for that matter are going to hunt "Moridin". Avi would put a stop to that so that point is moot.

 

Second, there have been body swap theories in one form or another floating around for almost as long as the series itself. How anyone could come in now and not "buy it" or even remotely say that it wasn't hinted at previously in the story or by either author is off their rocker IMO. 

Because I don't buy it. Who cares what has been prattled around on the internet-how can any of that be trusted as coming from Robert Jordan? There were theories that as Rand was being defeated by the Dark One, Lews Therin would show up and save the day! I did not buy it, I do not buy it. It seems an unnecessary twist, and I am not the only one who thinks so. To me, it didn't happen.

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Asgard, you can't just ignore what happened in the text and what has been explicitly stated by the author.

 

Interview: Feb 16th, 2013 Mageen

Can you shed any light on how the Rand/Elan body swap happened? I'm wondering whether it was like the Dark One's transmigration of souls, if it's tied to Rand's apparent new abilities, or something else.

Brandon Sanderson

It's not outlined in the notes, but I think of it as the soul that wanted to live found a body, and the one that wanted to die, did.

Mageen

I knew going in that Brandon has said RJ didn't explain how it happened, but a friend wanted me to ask and I'm glad I did! It was a much better answer than the shoulder shrug I expected based on the torchat.

 

 
  Interview: Feb 11th, 2013 Anna HornbostelBrandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

A fan asked him if Alivia's role in the epilogue was her fulfillment of Min's viewing and he said that it was very clear that that was all that that viewing meant. He said that fans are speculating that she played a part in the body swap but she did not.

 

Brandon went in to little detail about the body swap, saying he knows as much about it as we do and the notes just didn't give more. He asserted that he has to do with the balefire streams touching and the fact that Moridin no longer wanted to continue to exist but that Rand very much wanted to continue to exist.

 

Interview: Feb 22nd, 2013 Question

And the decision to exchange the bodies at the end?

Brandon Sanderson

That was his (Robert Jordan). And it began with the crossing of the balefire streams, way back when, and continued on through the series up to here. He actually wrote those scenes at the end himself.

 

I can keep going if you like? You are wrong on this...give over.

 

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First off, no Maiden or any other Aiel for that matter are going to hunt "Moridin". Avi would put a stop to that so that point is moot.

 

Second, there have been body swap theories in one form or another floating around for almost as long as the series itself. How anyone could come in now and not "buy it" or even remotely say that it wasn't hinted at previously in the story or by either author is off their rocker IMO. 

Because I don't buy it. Who cares what has been prattled around on the internet-how can any of that be trusted as coming from Robert Jordan? There were theories that as Rand was being defeated by the Dark One, Lews Therin would show up and save the day! I did not buy it, I do not buy it. It seems an unnecessary twist, and I am not the only one who thinks so. To me, it didn't happen.

 

 

See now, that's funny because in a way, that is what happened on Dragonmount in VoG.  :wink:

Edited by Finnssss

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Let me put my non-acceptance in terms I hope all of you will accept. In all the versions of the Wheel, perhaps reachable by Portal Stone, perhaps not, is a version of the Wheel where everything happened that happened in your books, but Rand walked away(rode away) in his own body, Illusioned by Alivia to look like Moridin, Illusioned so well, Rand had a hand again. I just happened to get that copy of A Memory of Light. How lucky can you get?

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