Mafia modding: Simplicity, yea or nay

[hazelkrs1]

  On 10/11/2013 at 9:04 AM, Nolder said:

 

  On 10/11/2013 at 5:26 AM, Despothera said:

And using DPR as an example of a good mod is a bit misleading. There are a number of reasons why DPR is a great mod; experience, popularity, cleverness with theme/design. I don't think simplicity is one of his best traits as a mod. He's just good enough to take a relatively basic setup and spice it up just enough with other tricks to make it entertaining.

I couldn't disagree more.

It takes someone with a lot of conviction not to overload a game with roles.

Let's be honest. Beloved Princess, Doublevoter, Flavor Cop, Governor, Gunsmith, Sensor, Nexus, and Voyeur are all really cool roles.

But you just can't stick them all into the same game and expect it to turn out as anything but a random mish mash of how abilities were used.

Balance is achieved with a less is more attitude.

 

Quote taken from another thread (I re-expanded the original quote to make it easier to see what we were referring to)

 

I completely agree that it can be easy to over-complicate things, and throw too many roles into a game and have them all stumble over eachother, but again Nolder, I think you're micharacterizing the kind of mod DPR is. Thinking back, there is not a one of his games that I can think of that I can describe as simple in any way. Every one had it's own dynamic that made it unique from pretty much any other mafia game I had seen.

 

The vampire and steampunk ones gave players the opportunity to move the game to a different thread and return. Spider country sort of did this in a way but that was a whole other bowl of potatoes, we'll get to that in a sec. Plus, the steampunk guild concept and the effect it had on the game was insaaaane.

 

Jaws he gave everyone harpoons. There was a lot of other craziness about that game I know, just never read it that closely.

 

Ghost game started off with no mafia (kinda like in BG's Smash Bros. game), and there were essentially no roles. Just triggers that handed out vig kills and views. Plus other stuff that he put in that never ended up surfacing, like how town could lynch more than one person per phase.

 

Scooby Doo... I didn't play but I know there was some bizarro stuff going on. Releasing monsters and stuff... I dunno I never understood what was going on. It wasn't typical tho. Plus it was an alt game.

 

Spider Country was probable the most unique out of all his games, imo at least. Two mafias (not all that bizarre), two towns (very unusual), was more like a gladiator contest than uninformed majority vs. informed minority.

 

Not to mention a lot of the unique roles in a lot of his games. Like the Spider Country one, the Torturer. Not only found out the role info of his target, but found out EVERYTHING that person had learned if they had an investigative role of some kind. Crazy awesome role.

 

And those are just the ones I know. I'm sure he's had others that had their own kinks. So yeah, once again I agree that you should try to keep from overdoing it with roles when creating a game, but I really don't think that DPR uses simplicity to rise to the top. He's kind of a jerk, and I got my own personal things against him, but the dude is really creative, and is obviously a good lateral thinker, and I think it shows with his setups.

[hazelkrs1]

I also think very few people remember the simple setups. It's always the ones with a twist that stick in people's minds. For better or for worse. So yeah, I've just started modding games, and my opinion might change as I try more out, but for now I don't think I will ever approach a setup with simplicity being a high priority. Something to keep in the back of my head maybe, for when I'm trying to balance roles (addition by subtraction is often easier and better I think), but not at the forefront.

[Darthe]

I'll bite.

 

As the person who has modded the most games on DM in the past two years and has done it in every way, shape, and form, I will say right now that in retrospect it was sheer stupidity of me to create role madness games to start off with.  Not only did it potentially compromise my games for the sake of some cheap endeavor but it additionally took away from the essence of what is mafia and it lessened my ability to learn how everything works together.  

 

To this day I would far rather run a game that was 2/3 vanilla and had some interesting mechanic than a role madness game that even I was a bit lost on.

 

If you need an example, look at the multi-thread game that Wombat and I ran.  Look at Bloodlust.  Then look at Game of Thrones.  

 

Role madness and Kitchen Sink games have a place in the mafia world, nobody will dispute that.  They are amusing, provocative, fun in general.  They are not the way to play mafia though.  If anything they should be reserved for moments when people are getting a bit tired of the norm in the game because they are spice.  

 

If we are honest, too many of them in a row is nauseating.  Completely desensitizes anybody to the excitement of getting a role and worse it lessens the necessity of scum-hunting or town-killing skills.  

 

If I had my way on this the only people who were allowed to run Role Madness games on site would be people selected and approved to through the Mafia Board on DM and no newbie would be allowed to start of running an advanced game without approval or proof of experience.

[michellem]

Sooo you can't run a good advanced game unless you have x numbers of games under your belt?

[Leelou]

To run an advanced game with tons of roles, you really need to know how the roles complement each other and how things balance out. Otherwise it's very easy to have the game be overpowered for either side.

[Darthe]

^ that, and advanced doesn't equal more roles.

 

Nobody is saying that you can't, only that you won't do as well. More pressure on the mod, less on the players, more difficultiss and confusion in the setup (generally), etc. Its a trap people fall in to.

[Verbal32]

  On 10/11/2013 at 5:13 PM, Misheru Sedai said:

Sooo you can't run a good advanced game unless you have x numbers of games under your belt?

 

If we are being completely honest here, there are people who just don't get the idea of game balance.  Pure and simple.  Those are folks I would never want to run advanced games - too easy to have an imbalanced game that people complain about.  That said, I'm not the mafia police and I'm not about to impose rules like that on this board.

 

Some people learn by doing, so they need to mod a handful of games before getting more complicated.  Awesome for them, and awesome for the players that play their games.

 

And some folks just get it from day 1.  Doesn't make them good "players", but perhaps they excel at game design.  Whatever.  Again, awesome for them and players.

[Darthe]

I would rather mod than play most of the time. Anyone else feel like that?

[Kathleen]

I definitely feel like that. And to be honest my first game modding was a kitchen sink game, with a twist. Every game I've modded has had some sort of twist. I usually balance them pretty well on my own, but I still send them to verbal o give them a check over before I start them.

 

And yes, a lot of times games with twists or lots of roles can be more fun for the mod watching behind the scenes, but I like to think they are fun for the players too.

[Verbal32]

  On 10/11/2013 at 8:12 PM, Darthe said:

I would rather mod than play most of the time. Anyone else feel like that?

 

Sometimes.  When I mod my bastard games, I have more fun than anything.  This is why I only do it once in a while.

[Andrej]

What do you guys think about combining roles versus adding more to a set up?

 

Like masons who share an investigation/protect ability, etc.

[Nolder]

  On 10/11/2013 at 10:05 AM, Despothera said:

I completely agree that it can be easy to over-complicate things, and throw too many roles into a game and have them all stumble over eachother, but again Nolder, I think you're micharacterizing the kind of mod DPR is. Thinking back, there is not a one of his games that I can think of that I can describe as simple in any way. Every one had it's own dynamic that made it unique from pretty much any other mafia game I had seen.

Yes exactly.

That's the thing about DPR that I can't emulate.

It'a the natural creativity for melding storytelling and game mechanics.

I think the closest I've come to that (in my own opinion) was a Dodgeball mafia that I ran on JN.

 

  On 10/11/2013 at 10:05 AM, Despothera said:

Spider Country was probable the most unique out of all his games, imo at least. Two mafias (not all that bizarre), two towns (very unusual), was more like a gladiator contest than uninformed majority vs. informed minority.

I didn't play spider country (because I'm afraid of spiders and iirc didn't have time for a big game at the time) but that is something I try to avoid when making games. That is, making the game anything other than uninformed majority vs informed minority. Once you change that it's no longer mafia imo.

 

  On 10/11/2013 at 10:05 AM, Despothera said:

And those are just the ones I know. I'm sure he's had others that had their own kinks. So yeah, once again I agree that you should try to keep from overdoing it with roles when creating a game, but I really don't think that DPR uses simplicity to rise to the top. He's kind of a jerk, and I got my own personal things against him, but the dude is really creative, and is obviously a good lateral thinker, and I think it shows with his setups.

I can agree that it's a blend of the two things.

What I admire more is the simplicity though because everyone has the potential to utilize that it just takes some self control whereas the creativity with mechanics and storytelling is not something people can just DO. Like being a writer or an athlete.

 

 

  On 10/11/2013 at 10:08 AM, Despothera said:

I also think very few people remember the simple setups. It's always the ones with a twist that stick in people's minds. For better or for worse. So yeah, I've just started modding games, and my opinion might change as I try more out, but for now I don't think I will ever approach a setup with simplicity being a high priority. Something to keep in the back of my head maybe, for when I'm trying to balance roles (addition by subtraction is often easier and better I think), but not at the forefront.

I tend to remember games I run vs games I've played in. 

 

  On 10/11/2013 at 5:13 PM, Misheru Sedai said:

Sooo you can't run a good advanced game unless you have x numbers of games under your belt?

You can. But experience usually helps most people.

 

  On 10/11/2013 at 8:12 PM, Darthe said:

I would rather mod than play most of the time. Anyone else feel like that?

I bounce back and forth.

 

  On 10/11/2013 at 8:56 PM, Andrej said:

What do you guys think about combining roles versus adding more to a set up?

 

Like masons who share an investigation/protect ability, etc.

Very easy to overpower the role. I've done it a few times though.

[Lenlo]

  On 10/11/2013 at 8:12 PM, Darthe said:

I would rather mod than play most of the time. Anyone else feel like that?

Ive only ever modded once, and that was co modding. It was fun but I think I prefer playing.

[WWWwombat]

Simple is best. That's not to say that you shouldn't put twists in a game, but every mechanic or role in a game should be there for a compelling reason and should be thoroughly examined. Try to think of every way to play every role that you can. Then do it again a couple weeks later. Then a third time.

 

A game that has too much going is usually a pain to run, confusing to play, and most likely imbalanced. I try to design my advanced setups with one major twist. There might be a couple minor ones too, but only if they complement the overall theme. I like my games to be cohesive, coherent, fun, interesting, and illuminating. I like to think of every setup having a gameplay theme as well as a flavor theme.