Quality Discussion Thread

[Suttree]

Well said Bregah, really highlights the different things people look for in their fantasy. It's awesome that the WoT can work on different levels.

[rane008]

Rj is irreplaceable we all know this. Another writer or a team of writers could have done better. But Brandon Sanderson did a good job and i enjoyed his books. Yes, Bloody Ashes pisses me off and so does some of his kindergarden humor. But he does finish the books well and I liked them.

 

Honestly, I feel sorry for the people that cannot enjoy his 3 books of the series, because I do enjoy them. I just feel sorry for RJ because he could not finish his own series

Don't feel sorry for me, dude-boy. I'm glad I can look at the last three books critically and not with fanboi-goggles.  Because that's how I know I'm not lying to myself.

[Bregah]

Well said Bregah, really highlights the different things people look for in their fantasy. It's awesome that the WoT can work on different levels.

The only other way I could describe it is more of a comparison to music (which will date me and show what kind of music I liked while growing up - hard rock/heavy metal, btw).

 

Back in the 80's and early 90's, when metal was more popular, there was always a debate about who was the best guitarist.  At the time, many said either Joe Satriani or Yngwie Malmsteen.  And IMO they were really, REALLY good guitarists.  But they weren't popular, while other "lesser" guitarists were (in the bands they were in).  I put that down to while these two may have been techinically the best at playing the guitar, they didn't write great SONGS to play, or mesh their solo with the song it was in, so their technical superiority was, largely, irrelevant. 

 

As guitar solos went, their band would be playing a song, and then they'd go into a solo.  The solo was techically great, but didn't actually go WITH the melody of the song.  But (my personal all-time favorites) a band like Iron Maiden - their solos (by Dave Murray and Adrian Smith) almost always matched the melody of the song they were playing.  The song/solo combined as a whole was, to me (and to many others, as Iron Maiden are still going strong - much stronger - worldwide - than nearly every 80's hard rock/metal band - though not so much in the US) superior - and that is/was the point of listening to music - how good the whole song is - and how you feel while listening to it.

 

That's why I don't analyze writing (the actual words, the structure, etc).  The point, to me, of a story, is the whole, which is the words and the plot.  A technically superior (in terms of structure, prose, etc) writer telling a less interesting story is less, to me, than a technically weaker author telling a more creative and inventive story.

 

Early in WOT, there were all kinds of elements that I fell in love with - most notably thinking about things like Amyrlin Seat/Merlin and, due to the wheel turning nature of the setting - which came first.  Did the Amyrlin Seat get it's name because to the people at the time, there was this legend of a great wizard named Merlin, or did Merlin get his name because he was a wizard and people called him that because there was a legend of a time gone by when there were wizards lead by the Amyrlin?  Or was it both (seeing as how the wheel kept turning)? 

 

Or the whole Angreal, Sa'angreal, Ter'angreal stuff relating to Holy Grail (original French, I think, was either San Graal meanning Holy Grail OR Sang Raal meaning royal blood, and was at one time written as sangrall - one word - leading to speculation, etc) which RJ incorporated into the story.

 

There are dozens of things like that, which in the 3rd age may be memories of things from our age (whichever that one is) or maybe ours are memories of the 3rd age.

 

For me, AMOL was pretty much how it was always going to be (in terms of plot).  It was pretty obvious that the Dark One was not going to "win" (or humanity was not going to "lose") from book 1, so it was just a matter of getting the characters to the point where Rand "won".  But there also had to be a big battle - Tarmon Gai'don (armageddon) - because it was built up all through the series.  I thought that was a great chapter, and I also thought Brandon did as well as he could have - given he had to write it with a pre-determined list of who lived and died.

 

Anyways - I've rambled too much on this, but back to the point of how I read and the word tempest - for me quotes are literal things to be taken literally (because, well, this is exactly what the character is saying), but descriptive words are there to give a feeling/setting/context/whatever.  My brain probably processes the word tempest and then translates it quickly, so I'm getting the point of the word without noticing the word - if that makes sense?

[dicetosser1]

n regards to language. For all intents WoT is a medieval type fantasy. At one point BS had a major character saying Okay"

 

This is NOT ok!

 

 

now  i have very weird feelings about this book. Normally I cant put a Wheel of time book down. this  one i could. Someone said they didnt feel invested in the story  I can understand that. It did often read like we were looking in from the outside.

 

 

The last quarter (approx) put me off to the point that i finished it saying I did not like it and even now a couple of weeks later I dont want to reread it which is something i normally do straight away! Im trying but after a few pages i find a reason to put it down.

 

My issues.

 

1 Mat just gives in to tuon! Turns Seanchan pretty much. That is just so NOT mat!  The biggest BS problem i have had since he started is that he cant write Mat.

2 language things as above

3 Egwene. I really enjoyed her story arc thru the series especially during her imprisonment in the WT. But in this she just suxed and worse yet I EXPECTED her to based on the last bits of her story before this. The fact that she had such a HUGE plot and then she just dies    relatively easily  really really suxed. Gawayn got what he deserved and he has suxed for a while now. Eggy would have been better to not bond him.

4 Demandred  Im glad to say I am one who picked that he was in Shara but overall i didnt like him. He just came across as insane and can someone PLEASE explain how he let himself get beaten by Lan? He can CHANNEL for crying out loud!! Lan cant!

5 Logain. I liked the BT stuff and Androl RULES! but once they saved him Logain blew. Another one who struck me as nuts particularly re the Sceptre. He does NOT deserve to lead the BT.

 

Some of the deaths were not given the epic finish they deserved. Siuan and Bryne dead    just like that?? 

 

Birgittes death was good tho and i was SOOOO happy to see Noal. Olver however annoyed me.

 

Which brings me to a complaint. The continuity got screwed acouple of times. The biggest was Olver being able to blow the horn at all. Hawkwing tells mat he died and owes the dragon his life. BUT didnt RJ confirm that Mat hanging from the tree did NOT break the link? So when did he die? and dont say by Rahvins hand Rand BALEFIRED Rahvin and we all know that depending on the power level that Balefire cause what the victim had previously done to not happen.  Hence why everyone was alive again. This means that Mat NEVER died a second time!! and as such should still be bound.

[rane008]

I'll add this: Perrin's arc in AMOL was bad.  He slept through most of TG.  Also, Slayer should have been killed off books ago, the scene with Lanfear was not only rushed but a waste of her character.  Similarly, his Hammer was a waste.  He didn't even really use it.  To have a character that strong in TAR, along with the ability to enter it in the flesh (sidenote: the long-standing, persistent belief held by several people who are vey knowledgeable that entering TAR in the flesh is evil is just kinda brushed aside in the end.  Which is Lame), only to do almost nothing in TAR aside from hunt a character who outlived his welcome long ago is a waste of a good arc. 

[Suttree]

Which brings me to a complaint. The continuity got screwed acouple of times. The biggest was Olver being able to blow the horn at all. Hawkwing tells mat he died and owes the dragon his life. BUT didnt RJ confirm that Mat hanging from the tree did NOT break the link? So when did he die? and dont say by Rahvins hand Rand BALEFIRED Rahvin and we all know that depending on the power level that Balefire cause what the victim had previously done to not happen.  Hence why everyone was alive again. This means that Mat NEVER died a second time!! and as such should still be bound.

You have to get a better understanding of how that works dice. There is no contradiction there.

[Orange7]

@dice

 

I agree with you on several of those points. However, I don't think that you properly grasp the Horn's bond.

 

Rahvin killing Mat is an interesting case. In terms of the pattern, with exception of balefire, your thread is not destroyed. It is simply not woven in until you are reborn. When Rand balefired Rahvin, His thread was torn, and Matt's was woven back in at the point where it had left, as if it hadn't left. However, the Horn can only be connected to a thread woven into the pattern. The bond is snapped when the thread is outside of the current weaving of the Pattern. Re-entry, even at the same point where it had previously exited, unfortunately cannot repair a bond already broken. Death can be healed, but the Horn's bond is only based on point between life and death, not on either exclusively.

 

In essence: The bond is not a thread in the pattern. It breaks when a thread stops being woven into the pattern, but it's mechanisms are interdependent to those of any individual thread and could not be altered by the reintroduction of a thread.

[jwillis7]

i see the whoe why the horn link was not recreated when tahvin was balefired just like the bruses on mins neck.  the link to the horn had nothing to do with rahvin his actions were taken back not effects of mats death

[Orange7]

i see the whoe why the horn link was not recreated when tahvin was balefired just like the bruses on mins neck.  the link to the horn had nothing to do with rahvin his actions were taken back not effects of mats death

 

Somewhat correct. However, the balefire causes a cascading effect, essentially reweaving any effected segment of the pattern withing the "blast radius." However, the link didn't break because Mat was dead. He never was dead. It broke because he died. The transition of the existence of his thread to an area outside of the weaving of the pattern broke it. Balefire effects the pattern. This can have an effect on threads , whether currently woven in or not, but it cannot effect whether those threads have transitioned. The border is more important than either side in this instance.

[jwillis7]

 

i see the whoe why the horn link was not recreated when tahvin was balefired just like the bruses on mins neck.  the link to the horn had nothing to do with rahvin his actions were taken back not effects of mats death

 

Somewhat correct. However, the balefire causes a cascading effect, essentially reweaving any effected segment of the pattern withing the "blast radius." However, the link didn't break because Mat was dead. He never was dead. It broke because he died. The transition of the existence of his thread to an area outside of the weaving of the pattern broke it. Balefire effects the pattern. This can have an effect on threads , whether currently woven in or not, but it cannot effect whether those threads have transitioned. The border is more important than either side in this instance.

i think this is why team jordan said they thought about the bruises for so long.  Rand Balefireing Siem did not take the bruises from min neck even though he would have never actually done it.  This set the precedent and i have no probs with

 

 

and your mat was never dead he died is going in a big circle.  1 he was dead, Rand saw it, Mat says other people tell him they saw him dead it did happen but it was "undone"

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

I'll add this: Perrin's arc in AMOL was bad.  He slept through most of TG.  Also, Slayer should have been killed off books ago, the scene with Lanfear was not only rushed but a waste of her character.  Similarly, his Hammer was a waste.  He didn't even really use it.  To have a character that strong in TAR, along with the ability to enter it in the flesh (sidenote: the long-standing, persistent belief held by several people who are vey knowledgeable that entering TAR in the flesh is evil is just kinda brushed aside in the end.  Which is Lame), only to do almost nothing in TAR aside from hunt a character who outlived his welcome long ago is a waste of a good arc. 

 

I agree and disagree. Slayer is Fenris and Perrin is Thor and Fenris guards the passage to the underworld. Their meeting there was thought out a long time ago, I'll bet good money on it.

But, I do agree with this - I actually said it somewhere recently here - Perrin took far too long to come into his power. ALSO, I totally agree with it being a waste for him to have to sleep through half the book. He should have been forced to fight for some reason before being able to go back to TAR and defeat Slayer. I also said the same thing about his hammer. The only time we see it do anything special is when he breaks a darkhound's head with it. He probably should have fought the darkhounds for a while before going back to kill slayer and rescue gaul. "I need to kill slayer, but if I go to TAR now these Darkhounds will destroy everyone guarding the passage into the bore and then it's all over anyway," etc, etc.

 

 

I think there were a few things that weren't timed right in the books. The Forsaken are far bigger bad-asses in AMOL than in any other book. They accomplish more than they have throughout the entire story.

[Orange7]

 

 

i see the whoe why the horn link was not recreated when tahvin was balefired just like the bruses on mins neck.  the link to the horn had nothing to do with rahvin his actions were taken back not effects of mats death

 

Somewhat correct. However, the balefire causes a cascading effect, essentially reweaving any effected segment of the pattern withing the "blast radius." However, the link didn't break because Mat was dead. He never was dead. It broke because he died. The transition of the existence of his thread to an area outside of the weaving of the pattern broke it. Balefire effects the pattern. This can have an effect on threads , whether currently woven in or not, but it cannot effect whether those threads have transitioned. The border is more important than either side in this instance.

i think this is why team jordan said they thought about the bruises for so long.  Rand Balefireing Siem did not take the bruises from min neck even though he would have never actually done it.  This set the precedent and i have no probs with

 

 

and your mat was never dead he died is going in a big circle.  1 he was dead, Rand saw it, Mat says other people tell him they saw him dead it did happen but it was "undone"

 

Exactly, but a reversal of states does not excuse the original transition, which broke the link.

[Joanna63]

n regards to language. For all intents WoT is a medieval type fantasy. At one point BS had a major character saying Okay"

 

This is NOT ok!

 

 

now  i have very weird feelings about this book. Normally I cant put a Wheel of time book down. this  one i could. Someone said they didnt feel invested in the story  I can understand that. It did often read like we were looking in from the outside.

 

 

The last quarter (approx) put me off to the point that i finished it saying I did not like it and even now a couple of weeks later I dont want to reread it which is something i normally do straight away! Im trying but after a few pages i find a reason to put it down.

 

My issues.

 

1 Mat just gives in to tuon! Turns Seanchan pretty much. That is just so NOT mat!  The biggest BS problem i have had since he started is that he cant write Mat.

2 language things as above

3 Egwene. I really enjoyed her story arc thru the series especially during her imprisonment in the WT. But in this she just suxed and worse yet I EXPECTED her to based on the last bits of her story before this. The fact that she had such a HUGE plot and then she just dies    relatively easily  really really suxed. Gawayn got what he deserved and he has suxed for a while now. Eggy would have been better to not bond him.

4 Demandred  Im glad to say I am one who picked that he was in Shara but overall i didnt like him. He just came across as insane and can someone PLEASE explain how he let himself get beaten by Lan? He can CHANNEL for crying out loud!! Lan cant!

5 Logain. I liked the BT stuff and Androl RULES! but once they saved him Logain blew. Another one who struck me as nuts particularly re the Sceptre. He does NOT deserve to lead the BT.

 

Some of the deaths were not given the epic finish they deserved. Siuan and Bryne dead    just like that?? 

 

Birgittes death was good tho and i was SOOOO happy to see Noal. Olver however annoyed me.

 

Which brings me to a complaint. The continuity got screwed acouple of times. The biggest was Olver being able to blow the horn at all. Hawkwing tells mat he died and owes the dragon his life. BUT didnt RJ confirm that Mat hanging from the tree did NOT break the link? So when did he die? and dont say by Rahvins hand Rand BALEFIRED Rahvin and we all know that depending on the power level that Balefire cause what the victim had previously done to not happen.  Hence why everyone was alive again. This means that Mat NEVER died a second time!! and as such should still be bound.

 

"......PLEASE explain how he let himself get beaten by Lan? He can CHANNEL for crying out loud!! Lan cant!" Lan was wearing the copy of the Fox Head medallion.

[flinn]

 

n regards to language. For all intents WoT is a medieval type fantasy. At one point BS had a major character saying Okay"

 

This is NOT ok!

 

 

now  i have very weird feelings about this book. Normally I cant put a Wheel of time book down. this  one i could. Someone said they didnt feel invested in the story  I can understand that. It did often read like we were looking in from the outside.

 

 

The last quarter (approx) put me off to the point that i finished it saying I did not like it and even now a couple of weeks later I dont want to reread it which is something i normally do straight away! Im trying but after a few pages i find a reason to put it down.

 

My issues.

 

1 Mat just gives in to tuon! Turns Seanchan pretty much. That is just so NOT mat!  The biggest BS problem i have had since he started is that he cant write Mat.

2 language things as above

3 Egwene. I really enjoyed her story arc thru the series especially during her imprisonment in the WT. But in this she just suxed and worse yet I EXPECTED her to based on the last bits of her story before this. The fact that she had such a HUGE plot and then she just dies    relatively easily  really really suxed. Gawayn got what he deserved and he has suxed for a while now. Eggy would have been better to not bond him.

4 Demandred  Im glad to say I am one who picked that he was in Shara but overall i didnt like him. He just came across as insane and can someone PLEASE explain how he let himself get beaten by Lan? He can CHANNEL for crying out loud!! Lan cant!

5 Logain. I liked the BT stuff and Androl RULES! but once they saved him Logain blew. Another one who struck me as nuts particularly re the Sceptre. He does NOT deserve to lead the BT.

 

Some of the deaths were not given the epic finish they deserved. Siuan and Bryne dead    just like that?? 

 

Birgittes death was good tho and i was SOOOO happy to see Noal. Olver however annoyed me.

 

Which brings me to a complaint. The continuity got screwed acouple of times. The biggest was Olver being able to blow the horn at all. Hawkwing tells mat he died and owes the dragon his life. BUT didnt RJ confirm that Mat hanging from the tree did NOT break the link? So when did he die? and dont say by Rahvins hand Rand BALEFIRED Rahvin and we all know that depending on the power level that Balefire cause what the victim had previously done to not happen.  Hence why everyone was alive again. This means that Mat NEVER died a second time!! and as such should still be bound.

 

"......PLEASE explain how he let himself get beaten by Lan? He can CHANNEL for crying out loud!! Lan cant!" Lan was wearing the copy of the Fox Head medallion.

 It is a man thing, hard for women to understand. It is not unusual at all for a MAN to want to put himself to the challenge. 

 

 I guess you dont remember Rand wearing his sword during the Aiel/Cairhien battle? You dont remember Lan asking why he wore his sword? 

 

 Because if you did remember those things, you would also remember Rand say it wouldn't be fair to use channeling...

 

 It is a man thing.

[Fred Cauthon]

I found this book to be entirely underwhelming... characters didn't feel the same, and the writing was choppy and rushed. The only scenes written well were the ones in which mat was commanding TG. Also, the ending left a lot to be desired. Other books by BS in the series were significantly better I thought. Basically this book left a lot to be desired.

 

Fred

[waffle]

book started off kind of meh. But kept getting better and ended strong. Even if it does feel like there is a whole epilogue chapter missing. That can probably be attributed to RJ wanting to leave room for outrigger novels that will sadly never happen.

[Suttree]

@Flinn

 

A man thing? Come on dude. Demandred did channel with the rocks and he knew indirect weaves were effective so he had already figured a way around the medallion.. It requires a suspension of disbelief that he wouldn't have just erupted the ground under Lan's feet or any if the other hundreds of things he could have done.

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

I understand both sides of the argument about Demandred and the duels. I can believe that he wouldn't use the OP or the TP to beat his adversaries.  I also understand the wtf, why doesn't he just destroy these guys with the OP or TP? arguments.

That's how I felt about the new Star Wars movies. The Force is barely used. 100s of Jedis an barely any use of the force except to jump around or lift and space pear.

[waffle]

Rule of cool. Roll with it.

[Barid Bel Medar]

It is the problem when you have an overpowered character. There is no realistic way for someone to defeat Demandred with a sa'angreal and circle of 72.

 

Even without all that, it is almost impossible for anyone but Rand to defeat him in a channeling conflict. 

 

So RJ/Brandon had to improvise logic for the good guys to win. 

 

It's the same reason Demandred mysteriously didn't go to Shayol Ghul. RJ/Brandon gave a decent explanation via various pieces of evidence that makes it seem like Rand is on the battlefield, however, it is still clearly an improvise. 

 

There is just no convincing way for anyone to have defeated Demandred, but Demandred needed to be killed off. 

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

It is the problem when you have an overpowered character. There is no realistic way for someone to defeat Demandred with a sa'angreal and circle of 72.

 

Even without all that, it is almost impossible for anyone but Rand to defeat him in a channeling conflict. 

 

So RJ/Brandon had to improvise logic for the good guys to win. 

 

It's the same reason Demandred mysteriously didn't go to Shayol Ghul. RJ/Brandon gave a decent explanation via various pieces of evidence that makes it seem like Rand is on the battlefield, however, it is still clearly an improvise. 

 

There is just no convincing way for anyone to have defeated Demandred, but Demandred needed to be killed off. 

 

Lot of truth to that. The overpowered character is a problem. It would also be a problem if Demandred, or some other Forsaken, didn't use a large circle. You know there'd be people saying, "COME ON! They had hundreds of dreadlords and Sharan channelers. Why wouldn't they form large circles and destroy huge swaths of the light side armies??!!?!!?! This is ridiculous. Total BS!!!" ETC.

[Noir Ronin]

It was a good yarn. I enjoyed the quality of the writing, the character development and plot structure. And I guess any literature that keeps the reader turning the page is to be considered successful.

 

But am I the only one who found the "philosophy" debate about the nature of good/evil between Rand and The Dark One to be shallow and rather trite?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeahh... unfortunately it's a lose-lose. People have wanted to Forsaken to do that kind of thing for ages, yet when they do, they are stupid. 

 

However, that's the whole point. You can't make your villains super strong and have the good guys be able to win. 

 

You either have to make them super strong and sacrifice logic - since logic would dictate the bad guys win. 

 

Or you make them defeatable, but sacrifice the intelligence of the character for not doing it awesome. 

 

Meh, I thought they did a reasonable job explaining why Demandred believed Rand was there. It was convincing enough not to be beyond belief. However, I knew at the same time it was a deliberate compromise.

 

After all, if Demandred had gone to Shayol Ghul, the story would have been over and the DO wins. 

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

Yeahh... unfortunately it's a lose-lose. People have wanted to Forsaken to do that kind of thing for ages, yet when they do, they are stupid. 

 

However, that's the whole point. You can't make your villains super strong and have the good guys be able to win. 

 

You either have to make them super strong and sacrifice logic - since logic would dictate the bad guys win. 

 

Or you make them defeatable, but sacrifice the intelligence of the character for not doing it awesome. 

 

Meh, I thought they did a reasonable job explaining why Demandred believed Rand was there. It was convincing enough not to be beyond belief. However, I knew at the same time it was a deliberate compromise.

 

After all, if Demandred had gone to Shayol Ghul, the story would have been over and the DO wins. 

 

I agree. If I were to get picky about the whole thing, I'd probably have Gawyn sacrifice his life in a different way and have Galad "Will you fight his brother instead?!!!" (which I thought was pretty cool - gave meaning and purpose their being brothers) and then Lan fight him. I think 3 people in 100 pages doing the same thing made it more difficult for people to suspend disbelief. That said, I had no problem with it. I can see Demandred's ego getting the better of him. That is his M.O., right? Ego-man?

[Noir Ronin]

Killing Egwene was gratuitous. Better arc: An unhealable stilling, and the White Tower keeps her as the Amyerlin anyway.