Quality Discussion Thread

[Suttree]

The reason a lot of people are reacting bad is they wanted certain stuff to happen that didn't.

Have a feeling like this response is going to be copy and pasted a fair amount as well.

 

"Yes clearly that's what it is. Didn't have anyting to do with the unpolished prose, blunt plotwork, wooden dialogue, "tell don't show" style or poor characterization. All that without even toching on the mistakes and structural issues. I'm just pissed Demandred came out of Shara."

[Mats Spare Hat]

Certain stuff I wanted to happen that didn't:

I wanted to read something that for the most part, didn't reek of being dumbed down toward fifth grade reading comprehension.

I didn't want to read something that felt as though it was partly cobbled together accounts of fan-fiction, straight off of message boards. As though some sort of inclusive readership accommodation was even necessary, or appropriate at this stage.   

I wanted to read something that portrayed a consistent quality, from scene to scene, character to character, reflective of insinuated effort on behalf of the author, rather than feeling jerked around because for example the writer enjoys character x more than character z, feels he 'gets' certain characters better, or won't put forth the effort because he 'couldn't do it as well' - so he won't even push himself to try.

_____

Dear god, my poor, poor molars...

Cardiac Amyloidosis is a bitch, and I hate it to the core for robbing us of what could have been.

[MarkDiLillo]

I just spent the evening rereading various parts of the first 11 books, and I can say with full and absolute confidence that I wish the last three books had never been written.  Not only do they fail to do justice to such a remarkable and enjoyable story, but they also manage to tarnish the professional legacy and masterwork of a beloved author and storyteller.  Robert Jordan deserved better than this.  We also deserved better.

 

Every time I read a comment that lays blame at RJ's feet for how the ending turned out I want to smack Brandon upside the head.  By my estimation, he is owed over a dozen smacks now.  Those comments are exactly the reason RJ originally wanted to burn the notes and obstinately refused to allow anyone to finish the story.  He relented only as a gift to us; his fans.  RJ spent the last months of his life jotting down notes, writing important parts of the story, and dictating important details so that someone could take over and finish his story for us.  He literally worked from his death bed to ensure that the Wheel of Time was finished properly.

 

After rereading parts of the original books tonight it really hit me how badly I feel that we’ve all been let down.  I am by nature critical – sometimes overly so, but right now I really don’t have any mercy or kindness left in my opinion and critique of Brandon's work on WoT.  Specifically aMoL.  I actually feel bad that I was so harshly critical in my opinions of ToM and TGS after finally digesting this book.  The problems of those first two Brandon books pale in comparison to what we see in aMoL.  Sure, ToM and TGS felt “off”, they contained some sloppy prose, and we can generally agree that we lost the voice of some of our favorite characters.  But…they still felt like Wheel of Time.  The original plot and story was still there.

 

This last book, the most important book in the entire series, is a total mess.  It is a disaster on every level.  It screams of sloppiness and a sheer lack of effort.  The saving grace of the last two books, the story and plots that RJ left us with, completely unravelled in this book and fell victim to Sanderon's own schemes.  It felt like he either abandoned most story arcs entirely, changed and redesigned them to his liking, or wrapped them up in such a sloppy and half assed manner that we literally lost the world that RJ left for us.  And this is entirely Brandon Sanderson’s fault.

 

Major plot points simply are forgotten and ignored.  Prophecies are not fulfilled.  Attributes and details of characters are changed or forgotten for plot convenience.  WoT world rules are forgotten, altered, or dramatically expanded in ways that make readers wonder why.  Entire characters that should have been featured are left out and forgotten.  Major themes of the series and questions that we’ve been asking for years are left completely unaddressed.  The text is filled with mistakes that we are taught to avoid in high school creative writing classes.  The list goes on and on.

 

Despite some very enjoyable and well written sections, this last book ruined the series and the legacy of one of the greatest stories of all time.  Stories like these live on for many, many years.  Many of us know the truth of how it all went down.  We know that a lot of these faults do not lie at RJ’s feet.  But guess what?  Forty years from now when someone is picking up this series and gets to the end only to be massively disappointed…they are not going to know what happened.  They will see that the series was completed based on the notes of Robert Jordan, and they are going to wonder why Robert Jordan’s ending was so sloppy.

 

My last point here is to explain exactly why I am so harshly critical of Brandon Sanderson’s work on aMoL.  We all know that Brandon Sanderson isn’t the same author as Robert Jordan.  That’s not the problem – a man can only try his best.  But did Brandon try his best on this?  Did he give 110% effort?  To answer that question we only have to look at what he wrote.  Some of it actually is fantastic and well written.  Some of it draws you in and allows you to think you’re reading original RJ written WoT.  I specifically point to Chapter 37 in aMoL.  The scenes with Lan, Olver, Rand, and the Horn of Valere were brilliantly written and woven together to a climax that made for fantastic reading.  Brandon’s own work betrays his sloppiness and lack of effort on this project.  How can certain sequences be so wonderfully written and other parts so utterly terrible?  How can he literally forget to address major cliffhangers that he wrote into the end of the last book?  The answer to those two questions is why I judge Brandon Sanderson so harshly.

 

I’ll stop now before this gets so long nobody reads it.  Hopefully I got most of my complaining out of my system with this post.  I just really feel disappointed, and the biggest let down comes because I see an honest lack of effort from Brandon’s side.  He wrote this as if it were just another project to get off his desk.  He didn’t write this as a professional working to finish another mans legacy.

 

It’s a terrible shame that future generations to come will read The Wheel of Time in its entirety and their final thoughts will be how poor an ending Robert Jordan left us with.

[Musenge_09]

@Mark D

 

How can the book be both "a disaster on every level", yet some of it be "fantastic and well written"? This is just clumsiness on your part, and makes makes it hard to take your critique seriously.

 

You make several allusions to the quality of the writing, yet you reference nothing of substance and spend most of the time complaining of fan boy issues such as "questions we have been asking for years" being left unaddressed. Since when has any author been beholden to address anything other than the questions they themselves want to answer?

 

BS didn't write this in a vacuum, he had extensive and exhaustive resources at his disposal and was very much guided by what both RJ and ultimately Harriet wanted the series outcome to be.

 

I'm certainly not going to sit here and say BS is a better or worse writer than RJ - that's not the point. In all honesty NEITHER of them are particularly great writers. It's fantasy, for crying out loud. RJ was incredibly derivative, and the entire series is probably 13.5 books longer than it could have been in the hands of a genuinely skilled writer - except that a writer like that would never actually touch this sort of pulp.

 

I love The Wheel of Time because it's been a part of my life for 20 years; because I've waited for every book since LOC; because I've known a lot f these characters for longer than a lot of my current friends; because it's comforting, it's familiar, it's a place to go where I can unhook my brain and disappear for a while. I'm incredibly grateful that it didn't die with RJ.

 

Sure there are things that I might have liked to see done differently, but that's me. I don't have a problem with anyone else saying that either. But hysterical, clumsy and ill-considered attacks like yours against BS just show up the ignorance of the reader rather than contributing to any meaningful discussion of the story itself.

[Suttree]

It's fantasy, for crying out loud.

 

Because fantasy can't be good literature? Not saying I agree totally with Mark but statements like this and you dare call other people ignorant. Lol.

[MarkDiLillo]

@Mark D

 

How can the book be both "a disaster on every level", yet some of it be "fantastic and well written"? This is just clumsiness on your part, and makes makes it hard to take your critique seriously.

 

You make several allusions to the quality of the writing, yet you reference nothing of substance and spend most of the time complaining of fan boy issues such as "questions we have been asking for years" being left unaddressed. Since when has any author been beholden to address anything other than the questions they themselves want to answer?

 

BS didn't write this in a vacuum, he had extensive and exhaustive resources at his disposal and was very much guided by what both RJ and ultimately Harriet wanted the series outcome to be.

 

I'm certainly not going to sit here and say BS is a better or worse writer than RJ - that's not the point. In all honesty NEITHER of them are particularly great writers. It's fantasy, for crying out loud. RJ was incredibly derivative, and the entire series is probably 13.5 books longer than it could have been in the hands of a genuinely skilled writer - except that a writer like that would never actually touch this sort of pulp.

 

I love The Wheel of Time because it's been a part of my life for 20 years; because I've waited for every book since LOC; because I've known a lot f these characters for longer than a lot of my current friends; because it's comforting, it's familiar, it's a place to go where I can unhook my brain and disappear for a while. I'm incredibly grateful that it didn't die with RJ.

 

Sure there are things that I might have liked to see done differently, but that's me. I don't have a problem with anyone else saying that either. But hysterical, clumsy and ill-considered attacks like yours against BS just show up the ignorance of the reader rather than contributing to any meaningful discussion of the story itself.

 

 

Ever play a game of chess that is embarrassingly bad where you get stomped?  Ever play one where inside that particular game you had a brilliant set of moves that captured the enemies queen yet you still lost horribly?  Same concept.  The book was a disaster on many levels that have already been spelled out in detail and in my post above.  Yet it did have some enjoyable to read parts that were well written.  My first read through Chapter 37 left me excited and convinced that RJ wrote the chapter.  After I finished the whole thing and digested it, I realized that there were a few events that were exciting and fun to read but overall this book was sorely lacking as an end to WoT.  Tonight I reread portions of the original books and I realized again how much of an utter failure this thing was for all of the reasons I listed above.  So yes, this book was a disaster.  It didn't wrap the series up appropriately despite its high points.  And yes, at the same time, parts of it were fun to read and well written.

 

Do you see what I mean?

 

Also please stop that crap argument about neither BS or RJ being good authors and how any good author would have done much better.  That is total rubbish and a fail argument for about a dozen different reasons.  The most poignant being that we are not talking about every other author.  We are talking about Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time and Brandon Sanderon's work in finishing it.  Trying to pretend the series is beneath "good authors" doesn't further your line of reasoning whatsoever.

 

These are not ill considered attacks.  Maybe clumsy, but not ill considered.  Most of the issues I list are objective errors and problems.  It is a fact that major characters were forgotten in this book, it is a fact that major cliff hangers were not resolved, it is a fact that prophecies were forgotten and left unresolved, it is a fact that character and plot details from previous books are massively contradicted.  If everything I listed was subjective and I just felt the story sucked then ya I'd just be another jerk talking bad about the author.  This isn't the case though.  These are real mistakes and real problems.

[Musenge_09]

Good point Sutree. I'll amend that statement to "it's fairly average fantasy, for crying out loud".

[pmtang]

It HAS to be good writing specifically because it is fantasy.  Because you are, most of the time, creating your own world, the writing has to be so fantastic to draw the reader into that world.  That's the biggest reason why a lot of books based on video games, even though they have a good story, never make it big.

[Suttree]

Good point Sutree. I'll amend that statement to "it's fairly average fantasy, for crying out loud".

Oh no worries and thanks for clarifying. Just hope you know most don't put RJ on some pedestal. He was an upper tier fantasy writer during his time but people have to be realistic about where his work stands both in genre and out. Regardless for this discussion we have to focus in on the quality of AMoL. There were some good chapters and sections but it was not a well written book over all. The various issues are quite simply far too glaring and it doesn't hold up in relation to the rest of the series.

[The Wolf]

 

The reason a lot of people are reacting bad is they wanted certain stuff to happen that didn't.

Have a feeling like this response is going to be copy and pasted a fair amount as well.

 

"Yes clearly that's what it is. Didn't have anyting to do with the unpolished prose, blunt plotwork, wooden dialogue, "tell don't show" style or poor characterization. All that without even toching on the mistakes and structural issues. I'm just pissed Demandred came out of Shara."

 

 

Certain stuff I wanted to happen that didn't:

 

I wanted to read something that for the most part, didn't reek of being dumbed down toward fifth grade reading comprehension.

 

I didn't want to read something that felt as though it was partly cobbled together accounts of fan-fiction, straight off of message boards. As though some sort of inclusive readership accommodation was even necessary, or appropriate at this stage.   

 

I wanted to read something that portrayed a consistent quality, from scene to scene, character to character, reflective of insinuated effort on behalf of the author, rather than feeling jerked around because for example the writer enjoys character x more than character z, feels he 'gets' certain characters better, or won't put forth the effort because he 'couldn't do it as well' - so he won't even push himself to try.

The point of my post was that people are so emotionally invested in this series that they are finding problems for the sake of finding problems in regards to the plot.  

As far as the writing quality, I think the same idea applies.

[Morsker]

 

The reason a lot of people are reacting bad is they wanted certain stuff to happen that didn't.

Have a feeling like this response is going to be copy and pasted a fair amount as well.

 

"Yes clearly that's what it is. Didn't have anyting to do with the unpolished prose, blunt plotwork, wooden dialogue, "tell don't show" style or poor characterization. All that without even toching on the mistakes and structural issues. I'm just pissed Demandred came out of Shara."

 

It's ignorant to include "tell don't show" amidst a bunch of generic negatives. If you think "showing" is always better, I suggest starting at Wikipedia, or even just thinking about it instead of latching onto it as a catch phrase.

 

"Showing" takes orders of magnitude more space, and there are plenty of reasons to tell something instead of showing it.

[TheAngryDruid]

First off, I want to thank Brandon and all of Team Jordan for seeing this through. I'm happy that the series got an ending and that I got to read it. But that is a different story from how I felt about the book.

 

I just didn't feel emotionally connected to anyone very often. Egwene is my favorite character from the Two Rivers gang, and her death didn't really bother me much. It was a heroic and fitting one.

 

I thought the first 15 chapters or so were pretty bad. Lots of characters regressed (Rand and Egwene yelling at each other). The Dragon's Peace scene was particularly poor. Rand doesn't discuss his plans for it with anyone, and Aviendha doesn't discuss her trip through the columns with him. Same thing with his other three women. The Rand/Avi scene should have gone more like: Shad of my heart, I am a Wise One now, and I have seen something in the columns that needs to be addressed, for the future of my people, your people...." And then we should have had a discussion about what to do. Instead, we got, "you will be me now." And then the whole thing falls together by happenstance because Moiraines back?

 

I thought the Mat/Tuon scene was similarly painful. And the Rand/Tuon scene more so. No evolution in thinking from Tuon at all. And then she thinks about breaking her word? This, from the "I always keep my promises" person? She almost backs out with the world itself at stake, after she has already decided that the world IS at stake (look at the sky?).

 

The battle scenes kept things moving along. But I expected some more craftiness (from both sides) on using weaves. Would have been nice if Rand would have taught some 2nd Age weaves to some of the channelers on his side. Maybe then, you know, more of them would have survived.

 

I DID like the idea that Mat had already died and thus been severed from the Horn, but thought the whole "Faile in the Blight" arc was unnecessary. And Lan's ride to Demandred. Birgitte's return. Galad revealed as Tyr. But like I said earlier, the emotional connectivity read like a David Eddings book. More Belgarion than Frodo for me at the end. Sorry. And that makes me sad.

 

Anyway, it's a bottom 5 book in the series for me. And even though I thought ToM was bad, I had more emotional connection in certain scenes (Hopper's death, Perrin's forging of the Hammer) and at least some characters showed some growth (Gawyn, Galad, Faile, Berelain) rather than regressing, as was the case in aMoL (Rand, Egwene, Tuon).

 

Anyway, I know I'm probably in the minority on this one, and aside from some of the scenes I mentioned, it wasn't good. It just felt like a Hollywood action flick that keeps throwing more action scenes at you but there isn't much depth to it. Thick book, but mostly shallow.

[Mr. Micawber]

No, the idea that this book is a major disappointment is pretty strong here. Haven't you noticed how few of the really, really long term posters like Luckers are willing to comment? It's because it kind of sucked

[Orange7]

Honestly, I felt that the book was thrilling from beginning to end. Unfortunately, it almost had too much in it for a single book, so things like Shaisam were cut a little short.

 

Pros:

-The battle scenes were great.

-Ituralde.

-Mat.

-I really liked that scene with Min discovering the traitor.

-Thom killing the Aes Sedai (although it was unrealistic).

-Finally, some clarity on how Turning works/Explanation why the entire tower wasn't already a group of darkfriends.

 

Cons:

-WTF was up with Demandred? I know he's crazy, but letting himself die in a sword fight when he has the power of a god is overkill.

-I feel like Moridin and the DO fell into more architypical roles than they should have.

-Honestly, I didn't really feel that the struggle between Rand and the DO was as well thought out as it could have been. However, I did like that Rand went to all capitals, seeming to imply that he was the Creator, even though that was to be expected.

-No clarification on Rand's abilities at the end. To what extent can he change things?

-The rest was wrapped up a little too nicely.

-Moghedien is a damane. However, I believe that Egwene's agreement stipulates that damane who wish to be free can be set free.

 

Either (depending on how you think about it):

-The Horn of Valere

-The Generals

 

Honesty, I felt that it was good. I just wish that Rand vs. the DO would have been a little better.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Morsker,

Considering BS often times teaches an undergrad section of creative writing at BYU, and also taking into account that 'show, don't tell' is one of the golden rules of creative writing taught in even the most basic freshman composition courses, regardless of locale & instructor, it's more than a little funny that you'd suggest someone as being ignorant to the meaning behind the "catch-phrase," let alone dropping a link to wikipedia as a starting point.

Although from what I gather I feel as though I would, more than likely, drop a few coins betting on Suttree and your(Morsker) own perceived ignorance of his capacity for literary critique, with regard to basic tenements of creative writing craft - Which as evidence suggests, since we've now three volumes for examination, quite more than often eluded the grasp of BS on a considerable stage.

Furthermore, to point out the matter of 'showing' taking up 'orders of magnitude more space,' implies either inherent laziness: an unwillingness to apply oneself further, perhaps under the rationale of 'good enough,' or a matter being of ill importance - Or plain inability itself, a lack of creative talent, etc. along that line, on behalf of the writer.

[flinn]

Honestly, I felt that the book was thrilling from beginning to end. Unfortunately, it almost had too much in it for a single book, so things like Shaisam were cut a little short.

 

Pros:

-The battle scenes were great.

-Ituralde.

-Mat.

-I really liked that scene with Min discovering the traitor.

-Thom killing the Aes Sedai (although it was unrealistic).

-Finally, some clarity on how Turning works/Explanation why the entire tower wasn't already a group of darkfriends.

 

Cons:

-WTF was up with Demandred? I know he's crazy, but letting himself die in a sword fight when he has the power of a god is overkill.

-I feel like Moridin and the DO fell into more architypical roles than they should have.

-Honestly, I didn't really feel that the struggle between Rand and the DO was as well thought out as it could have been. However, I did like that Rand went to all capitals, seeming to imply that he was the Creator, even though that was to be expected.

-No clarification on Rand's abilities at the end. To what extent can he change things?

-The rest was wrapped up a little too nicely.

-Moghedien is a damane. However, I believe that Egwene's agreement stipulates that damane who wish to be free can be set free.

 

Either (depending on how you think about it):

-The Horn of Valere

-The Generals

 

Honesty, I felt that it was good. I just wish that Rand vs. the DO would have been a little better.

 

 I dont think the agreement was "freed". I think they are given a choice to either be damane or go to the White Tower.

Letting "wilders" run free has never been a White Tower thing. They just now will be given a choice of damane or training in the WT or possibly as Wise One apprentices.

[Orange7]

 

Honestly, I felt that the book was thrilling from beginning to end. Unfortunately, it almost had too much in it for a single book, so things like Shaisam were cut a little short.

 

Pros:

-The battle scenes were great.

-Ituralde.

-Mat.

-I really liked that scene with Min discovering the traitor.

-Thom killing the Aes Sedai (although it was unrealistic).

-Finally, some clarity on how Turning works/Explanation why the entire tower wasn't already a group of darkfriends.

 

Cons:

-WTF was up with Demandred? I know he's crazy, but letting himself die in a sword fight when he has the power of a god is overkill.

-I feel like Moridin and the DO fell into more architypical roles than they should have.

-Honestly, I didn't really feel that the struggle between Rand and the DO was as well thought out as it could have been. However, I did like that Rand went to all capitals, seeming to imply that he was the Creator, even though that was to be expected.

-No clarification on Rand's abilities at the end. To what extent can he change things?

-The rest was wrapped up a little too nicely.

-Moghedien is a damane. However, I believe that Egwene's agreement stipulates that damane who wish to be free can be set free.

 

Either (depending on how you think about it):

-The Horn of Valere

-The Generals

 

Honesty, I felt that it was good. I just wish that Rand vs. the DO would have been a little better.

 

 I dont think the agreement was "freed". I think they are given a choice to either be damane or go to the White Tower.

Letting "wilders" run free has never been a White Tower thing. They just now will be given a choice of damane or training in the WT or possibly as Wise One apprentices.

Sorry about that. I just checked, and Tuon ran off in a huff without answering. I'm not sure what the implications are.

[John Everyman]

I could post something longer if I wasn't so tired, and I may do so later.  For now, I'll say that I was thoroughly pleased with AMOL.  I have lots of little critiques, but my two big ones are

 

- Moiraine did not have nearly as much presence in the novel as she should have.  As of now, I'm hoping River of Souls covers this. 

 

- Nynaeve got majorly shafted in the POV department.  I don't know for sure, but I'd guess that Uno got more POV space than Nynaeve did.

[Suttree]

 

 

 

 

 

The reason a lot of people are reacting bad is they wanted certain stuff to happen that didn't.

Have a feeling like this response is going to be copy and pasted a fair amount as well.

 

"Yes clearly that's what it is. Didn't have anyting to do with the unpolished prose, blunt plotwork, wooden dialogue, "tell don't show" style or poor characterization. All that without even toching on the mistakes and structural issues. I'm just pissed Demandred came out of Shara."

It's ignorant to include "tell don't show" amidst a bunch of generic negatives. If you think "showing" is always better, I suggest starting at Wikipedia, or even just thinking about it instead of latching onto it as a catch phrase.

 

"Showing" takes orders of magnitude more space, and there are plenty of reasons to tell something instead of showing it.

Lol don't quote a wiki page at me Morsk(or maybe you just don't understand what the criticism means?) This what I studied in school and youre straw man doesnt help the discussion. It most certainly was a negative in the way it was used excessively these last three books. As for space, that wasn't an issue. If there was room for all of that filler, there was room to do better here and it certainly want a conscious choice on the authors part.

 

Further the negatives are not generic in the slightest. Don't be disingenuous by pretending each one of those issues are not prevalent. This is a discussion for the quality of the work. Not a place to call other posters ignorant. If you don't agree please provide examples from the text that show me to be wrong.

 

@mats spare

 

Good on ya.

[John Everyman]

Since this thread is becoming quite massive, I've only skimmed a few pages here and there, but I've noticed many of the complaints are leveled not at the story developments, but quality of prose.  That's valid of course.  In a direct prose comparison, Robert Jordan is the more skilled of the two (though I still maintain he has always written very wooden dialogue). 

 

That said, I've never understood the notion that Robert Jordan is himself a master of the written word.  He has considerable strengths- he knows how to convey a lot of information in few words (he pulls back on that somewhat in later books, but it is very prevalent in some passages, such as Rand's visions in TSR), he has a gift for describing scenery, and is great at writing tight POV's- but personally I've never been impressed by simply the strength of writing in the WOT series.  Rather, it's always been the plot.  Some writers can write about the most mundane subjects and make them interesting or moving through their descriptions.  Robert Jordan's prose tends to be rather pedestrian, and has a lot of trouble with character interaction, but is an incredibly gifted storyteller.  That's what drew me into the WOT, and that's what refused to let go.

 

Now, everything I said about RJ goes even more so with Brandon Sanderson.  But like Jordan, what he lacks in eloquence, he makes up for in construction.  I could compare Sanderson's writing to a well written action movie.  You may laugh at some of the details, and sometimes the pacing is so obnoxiously breakneck that there's no time for any meaningful character interaction, but he knows when to amp up the tension.  The battle scenes, in particular, were very well done (chapter 37 in general was fantastic).  As I've said, i think Robert Jordan is at present the better writer, but I do not believe the chasm between them is large as some others do. 

 

So, I really can't say that some of the prosaic missteps really bothered me, because WOT is solely a plot driven series to me.  For some authors, I do look to admire the quality of the writing.  For Wheel of Time, and books like it, I'm concerned with the plot above all.  I'm a highly visual reader, though, so that may have had something to do with it.

 

Which itself was not perfect, don't get me wrong.  I was incredibly annoyed the way both Moiraine and Nynaeve were shafted, for instance.  I felt many parts of the book was rushed, and could have benefited from another one hundred pages at least, both to better space things out and to potentially tie up loose ends.  That said, I felt some of the more rushed sections of the book, near the end, were the ones obviously written by Robert Jordan, namely the Rand scenes, and the epilogue itself.  The epilogue had some tearjerking moments, but overall I feel Robert Jordan's tendency towards brevity backfired on him here.  The book closed with a bit of a whimper.  The final section of the epilogue itself was fine; the rest of it could have used some evening out. 

 

So yes.  A Memory of Light is not a perfect book by any stretch of the imagination.  Wheel of Time is not a perfect series by any stretch of the imagination.  But amidst the flaws, there is some greatness to be found.  Overall, I'm happy with it. 

[Suttree]

That said, I've never understood the notion that Robert Jordan is himself a master of the written word. 

For the record has anyone been saying this? People need to be realistic about Jordan as well, he was an upper tier fantasy writer for his time. Unfortunately though these last few WoT books have fallen well behind the curve for what is "upper tier" fantasy these days.

 

Also question, you said you're concerned with plot above all. Where you satisfied then with how that was handled these last few books? I would not say plot work was a strength in the slightest.  It is all too often blunt and the execution was frequently flawed. When taking the three books as a whole the structural issues stand out quite clearly as well.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Bloody Nice to see flaming Uno being bloody back but his first flaming appearance was bloody flaming awful and bloody ashes but he flaming bloody overused the bloody flaming curses in his dialogue which was a bloody shame.

His pov was much better than his flaming first appearance.

[MarkDiLillo]

All in all, I think if the plot points and story arcs had been wrapped up adequately then the critics would be mostly quieted and our complaints would only be acknowledged amongst the serious core fans.  The plot and story arcs that were left unersolved or hastily finished is what hurts the series the most.

[John Everyman]

 

That said, I've never understood the notion that Robert Jordan is himself a master of the written word. 

For the record has anyone been saying this? People need to be realistic about Jordan as well, he was an upper tier fantasy writer for his time. Unfortunately though these last few WoT books have fallen well behind the curve for what is "upper tier" fantasy these days.

 

Also question, you said you're concerned with plot above all instant. Where you satisfied then with how that was handled these last few books? I would not say plot work was a strength in the slightest.  It is all too often blunt and the execution was frequently flawed. When taking the three books as a whole the structural issues stand out quite clearly as well.

 

Yes, my biggest problem with AMOL, one that was somewhat inevitable for a book of this nature, was that everything happened so fast, that character moments were sacrificed for tons and tons of battles.  Like I said, inevitable, but disappointing (I wish there were more scenes like the one between Rand and Tam). 

 

As for where I think Brandon succeeded, I'd say that he handled the battle scenes very well (AMOl is the closest WOT has been to military fantasy), and that he made most of the important expected events happen.  The problem is, of course, that they're simply not given room to breathe.  I like that Rand and Mat got to interact, for example, but it was only something like two pages. 

 

If I were to simply outline AMOL, I think it would look very good.  Almost all the characters (except Nynaeve... grrr) are given moments to shine.  Looking at just this hypothetical outline, I would think AMOL would be a five star book.  As written, it's about a 3.5 for me.  Personally, though, I'd attribute this to both Brandon Sanderson and Robert Jordan.  Some of the later parts of the book, penned by Jordan, felt just as rushed to me. 

 

You could argue that it's impossible to fit everything that needed to be put into this book in and give everything the attention it deserves, and that's true, but I think there would have been justification for stretching the book out just a bit more. 

 

And I just realized I went from defending the book to criticizing it.  It happens.  I still felt the book captured the essence of the Last Battle, in that it successfully conveyed the fact that the characters were dealing with the absolute end of the world, so overall I can say that I'm satisfied.  If I can enjoy COT for what it is, I can certainly enjoy AMOL for what it is. 

 

 

 

All in all, I think if the plot points and story arcs had been wrapped up adequately then the critics would be mostly quieted and our complaints would only be acknowledged amongst the serious core fans.  The plot and story arcs that were left unersolved or hastily finished is what hurts the series the most.

 

 

Obviously I don't know specifics, but Brandon did mention that Jordan wanted certain plotlines to be left open ended.  There are some things, like completely shafting Nynaeve and Moiraine, that I will lay at Brandon's feet, though most of the plotlines that weren't concluded I'd personally be more inclined to think of as a Jordan thing.

[jjstraka34]

I thought the Prologue was for the most part excellent. It gave Talmanes a moment of glory he deserved and Sanderson has never had any trouble writing from the Forsaken POV, which is why the reveals in the first 70 pages work so well. Things really went off the rails for the first part of this book after the prologue. The biggest problem I have with Sanderson is that things just HAPPEN with almost no thought or discussion whatsoever and it's jarring.  I think one of the reasons we all enjoyed this series so much is that Jordan's deliberate pace, while maddening at times, did have a point, which was to completely immerse us in the world. He certainly fell into a bit of a plot rut in books 8-10, but it was never less than enjoyable to watch the characters go about their business. 

 

The entire "Dragon's Peace" meeting of world leaders was almost laughable, which in turned ruined what should have been one of the series highlights, Moiraine's reunion with Rand (and it is unforgivable the level of non-interaction Lan and Moiraine have after spending 20 years side-by-side to get to this moment). The meeting with Tuon had the same problem. I have to keep telling myself in my head that the increased pace of the plot is due to the fact that everyone now can travel instantaneously, which helps some, but to have major plot lines wrapped up in 3 pages is just too much. 

 

Ultimately Sanderson had a impossible job. Even with the increased pace of "Knife of Dreams", it would have taken Jordan at least 5 more books to finish this series. I thought Sanderson wrapped up the White Tower plot in TGS and TOM very nicely. I thought Demandred ended up being everything we had hoped (though much of Chapter 37 bears Jordan's mark much more than Sanderson's). He resolved the Black Tower situation as best as could have been hoped for. The second half of the book is significantly better than pages 80-400. Certain scenes and quotes are quite memorable.

 

But in the end, as much as it is great to get an ending to this series, at least 50% of the time when I am reading the Sanderson trilogy I feel like I am reading Wheel of Time Cliff Notes. He did an admirable job, and we should all be grateful for that. But the experience of reading them just make me appreciate Jordan's talent all the more.