the Seanchan in Last Battle

[nsmallw]

Hi.  I am new to Dragonmount and am excited to share ideas, questions and have fun with others who aren't just fans

of WOT but FANATICAL ones :)

 

I am unsure if this question has ever been asked before but here it goes.  Does anyone else feel like the Seanchan got

a cushy deal in the Last Battle ?  It seemed to me in reading and re-reading "A Memory of Light" that they were barely involved

in the battles and suffered the least number of casualties compared to Egwene et al. There were no POV accounts from Tylie or

Karede. I read a couple scenes where their damane were active and a single time where their calvary was involved in helping

Egwene's forces escape the Trollocs/Sharans but THAT's it. Next thing we hear is that Mat is pulling them out of battle as a

tactic that supposedly helps the battle in some way that I can't see. Meanwhile Egwene, Lan, Elayne , and Rand's forces are

beeing butchered !. Does anyone feel the same as me and if so what effects do you think the seemingly insignifigant losses

that the Seanchan suffer will affect the world post Last Battle.  Thanks for reading this to the end, I tend to ramble sometimes.

I look forward to hearing from you.

[CauthonsLuck]

Well, I believe that the Seanchan left the battle so that Demandred thought that the army was splitting up, and that the battle would be more easily won. He probably didn't anticipate the Seanchan coming back and attacking all his forces. I do have to agree with you though. I feel like they were rarely in the battle field, which wasn't really fair since they had the best channelers. 

[The_Wanderer]

Hello and welcome to Dragonmount.  I agree with you the Seanchan definitely suffered the least in the Last Battle. 

 

A lot of damage to the Seanchan seems to have been implied, so the readers never really know what the extent of the damage that was done to their society by the onging civil wars in their home world after the destruction of Seanchan royal family. 

 

If Aviendha's return to the Aiel waste and the visions she saw carry any weight though, the Seanchan will be a powerful society in the future. 

[Laica Sedai]

I too have to agree with you at the Seanchan lose the least troops. I think the White Tower suffered most (though the Borderlanders lost a lot too in their two battles) as they were constant at the battle, to the point of not being able to channel anymore. Mat should have put all the damane at the front with the White Tower, I bet they would've destroyed all Sharan channelers (and after that their army) quite easy! ;)

 

 

If Aviendha's return to the Aiel waste and the visions she saw carry any weight though, the Seanchan will be a powerful society in the future. 

 

I don't think Aviendha's vision will come true. Not fully, at least. I think the ter'angreal at Rhuidean shows a possible future, or maybe the most likely future at that moment, but I think it can be changed quite easily. I mean, Rhuarc was alive in the vision, but we know that he died at the end of aMoL. And if I remember correctly, the Aiel fought against the Seanchan in the first place because they wouldn't give back their Wise Ones, but Egwene and Fortuona made a deal that the Seanchan could keep all the channelers they had now. (If the deal survived Egwene's death)

[Rhienne]

 

 

I too have to agree with you at the Seanchan lose the least troops. I think the White Tower suffered most (though the Borderlanders lost a lot too in their two battles) as they were constant at the battle, to the point of not being able to channel anymore. Mat should have put all the damane at the front with the White Tower, I bet they would've destroyed all Sharan channelers (and after that their army) quite easy! ;)

I think they were about equal - Borderlanders lost Bashere, Tenobia and about two thirds of their forces (probably more, as I think they lost two thirds when Lan discovered Agelmar had been making mistakes), and the White Tower lost Egwene, Gareth, Romanda and about two thirds of their Sisters (not sure how many of their army was killed).

 

I agree that the Seanchan seemed to be used oddly in the LB.  Mat's tactic of acting like he was losing seemed a bit strange given that it seemed like they really did come perilously close to losing a number of times, and large groups of important soldiers, plus key players like Egwene were killed while the Seanchan essentially sat on the sidelines.  I think this is particularly the case for their specialist units, e.g. the Deathwatch Guards and Aes Sedai (I think at least the Gardeners joined the other Ogier and fought throughout most of the battle).  There's that scene at the end where we see all the Seanchan exotic animals being used just to clear up the remnants of the trollocs once they've pretty much already broken.  From the way the scene is written, the various animals seem extremely powerful, and it just seems bizarre that they weren't utilised earlier in the battle.

[The_Wanderer]

I too have to agree with you at the Seanchan lose the least troops. I think the White Tower suffered most (though the Borderlanders lost a lot too in their two battles) as they were constant at the battle, to the point of not being able to channel anymore. Mat should have put all the damane at the front with the White Tower, I bet they would've destroyed all Sharan channelers (and after that their army) quite easy! ;)

 

 

If Aviendha's return to the Aiel waste and the visions she saw carry any weight though, the Seanchan will be a powerful society in the future. 

 

I don't think Aviendha's vision will come true. Not fully, at least. I think the ter'angreal at Rhuidean shows a possible future, or maybe the most likely future at that moment, but I think it can be changed quite easily. I mean, Rhuarc was alive in the vision, but we know that he died at the end of aMoL. And if I remember correctly, the Aiel fought against the Seanchan in the first place because they wouldn't give back their Wise Ones, but Egwene and Fortuona made a deal that the Seanchan could keep all the channelers they had now. (If the deal survived Egwene's death)

 

I hope you're right, I liked the Aiel, I would hate to see them get destroyed.

[avernite]

I can see one good reason;

 

Mat didn't know Demmy expected Rand to show up. Thus, the only thing that could make him hold back from slaughtering EVERYONE was fear; the same fear Rand explains in Maradon: using so much power you're vulnerable.

 

So long as the Seanchan were held back, Demmy knew any too-exhausting things might provoke them to carve his heart out. Not likely, but still, he wants to live (well, so we and Mat might think; his duelling suggests otherwise). Sure, the whole trickery with pretending they were leaving doesn't seem to fit that entirely, but I think uncertainty was the goal; make the Seanchan a wildcard, so Demandred overreaches (but only slightly, because the Seanchan still worry him).

 

Now, Mat could as well have done so with the AS, scaring Demmy about as much, but choosing between the AS and Seanchan him choosing to save the Seanchan seems expected, given his relations with both groups.

[David Selig]

 This bugged me while reading. The leaders of the non-Seanchan armies should've objected strongly to this.

[Plato]

True, why didn't Egwene flip the F*** out when they left.  I could have totally seen her cursing a storm at Mat for letting personal issues effect the Last Bloody Battle!

[Coldenn]

The Wheel Weaves as the Wheel wills.

 

Mat is based around luck, and feinting in battle and pretending to lose is taking huge risks. When the odds are stacked against him, his luck kicks and and forces chance. Mat's knowledge combined with perfect luck allowed a much superior force to be whittled down to where it could simply wiped out. I think that if the Seanchan had entered the battle, and evened the numbers out a bit, Mat's luck wouldn't have been as good, and the Light would have lost the fight.

[Orderofolde]

Well, I believe that the Seanchan left the battle so that Demandred thought that the army was splitting up, and that the battle would be more easily won. He probably didn't anticipate the Seanchan coming back and attacking all his forces. I do have to agree with you though. I feel like they were rarely in the battle field, which wasn't really fair since they had the best channelers. 

Not to mention that they had thousands, and had collared many thousands of women in all the lands that they had taken over.  It would take only weeks before they could channel, given the methods of the trainers, so yes, another greatly underplayed/forgotten of thing from the books being wrapped up.  So much was said about all the women going weak-kneed drinking tea made from Forkroot, balanced with there being more Damane than Suldam, but still...even Mat's captured Damane he took himself kind of vanished in the book as well.

[Falcan]

Hi.  I am new to Dragonmount and am excited to share ideas, questions and have fun with others who aren't just fans

of WOT but FANATICAL ones :)

 

I am unsure if this question has ever been asked before but here it goes.  Does anyone else feel like the Seanchan got

a cushy deal in the Last Battle ?  It seemed to me in reading and re-reading "A Memory of Light" that they were barely involved

in the battles and suffered the least number of casualties compared to Egwene et al. There were no POV accounts from Tylie or

Karede. I read a couple scenes where their damane were active and a single time where their calvary was involved in helping

Egwene's forces escape the Trollocs/Sharans but THAT's it. Next thing we hear is that Mat is pulling them out of battle as a

tactic that supposedly helps the battle in some way that I can't see. Meanwhile Egwene, Lan, Elayne , and Rand's forces are

beeing butchered !. Does anyone feel the same as me and if so what effects do you think the seemingly insignifigant losses

that the Seanchan suffer will affect the world post Last Battle.  Thanks for reading this to the end, I tend to ramble sometimes.

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Just finished AMoL and I certainly agree. Based on the fact how much they had conquered, descriptions of their armies and their damane of course, that's really odd they just sat there for the most of the battle while others where butchered. I think Sanderson actually made a mistake here. Based on the information in the books Seanchans should have superior forces compared to any other nation. I would estimate 1/4 of all of the Forces of Light (before the beginning of Last Battle!),+ over 1000 well-trained damane and much more in-training.

 

It would be just plain stupid to wait until you are outnumbered 10 to 1 before ordering them to battle. No battleplan can work that way. It was either a mistake from BS, or he just had to get book finished so he focused on plot and let the story bend to make it work the way he wanted. He have had a bad habit with that in other books as well, it has grown worse with each book. He still did a very good job.

[Sabio]

Mat holding the Seanchan back was to protect Tuon until the spy could be located.  Holding the Seanchan back was playing into Dems hands so there was no need for assassination attempts on her.  Because once Dem crushed the forces of light taking out the Seanchan would of been easy because they simply could of resorted to turning the minds of their generals.  Also he couldn't trust all the seanchan, Tuon was getting advice from some of her generals who were already feeding her bad information.  Now did I think it was dumb to pull back your most powerful forces yes, didn't make a lot of sense to me but Mat was certain a spy was hiding so had to make the seanchan seem like they were no longer a threat. 

[Bannakaffalatta]

I think even with the Seanchan not losing as much as everyone, they have the civil war in Seanchan to settle. So while it seems that they have the most forces left to be able to go back on the Dragon's Peace, and run through the mainland, they won't. I think it will be a generation or two before the Seanchan are ready to continue their attempt to reclaim Hawkwings land, and by then the forces of the mainland will be nearly back to what they were. 

 

That being said, I did feel that the Seanchan did get it a little easy, but at the same time, would you have cared if the Seanchan were butchered? Rand and everyone else's forces getting massacred was a lot more effective in keeping you interested. A few of the Seanchan might have been "wept" for (Tylee is the only one I think, though I really like the Seanchan) so it just seemed like BS and possibly RJ didn't want to put too much effort into something they knew wouldn't tug your heart strings.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Mat holding the Seanchan back was to protect Tuon until the spy could be located.  Holding the Seanchan back was playing into Dems hands so there was no need for assassination attempts on her.  Because once Dem crushed the forces of light taking out the Seanchan would of been easy because they simply could of resorted to turning the minds of their generals.  Also he couldn't trust all the seanchan, Tuon was getting advice from some of her generals who were already feeding her bad information.  Now did I think it was dumb to pull back your most powerful forces yes, didn't make a lot of sense to me but Mat was certain a spy was hiding so had to make the seanchan seem like they were no longer a threat. 

 

That's part of it, yeah. Not having the enemy know your plans is pretty important. The other reason for doing it was so that the Seanchan could take the Trollocs in the rear once they'd exposed themselves. Matt had to ensure that pretty much all of the Trolloc forces had been committed to the battle before that could happen, otherwise the Seanchan would find themselves flanked instead, and cut off from the rest of the army. To do that, Matt had to lure the Trolloc reserves off the Heights and cut off their retreat (with the river), so that they'd be caught between the Seanchan and the Randland armies. He also had to wait until Demandred and his circle were gone/exhausted, so that they couldn't balefire away the Seanchan hammer.

 

The dicey part was that the dominos only all lined up when they did, by which time the main Randland force was nearly out of commission. I suppose that there was one more wrinkle to Matt's plan, which was that if he couldn't pull it off and the main Randland force was exterminated too early, the Seanchan would be relatively unharmed and out of harm's way, and so could gateway back to Seanchan, rally some troops, and have a second go at wiping away the Dark One's armies.

 

 

 

I take it that was the gist of the plan, although the way it was written made it far from obvious (especially because Fortuona has what seem like real doubts, and nearly abandons the plan for the good of the Empire--but I guess that's in keeping with her character, even if it was confusing). And, you know. Disappearing channelers and stuff.