Cadsuane Bothers Me

[EmperorAllspice]

Okay. This is probably just me being me right now, but I need to get it off my chest.

 

Cadsuane is INSUFFERABLE. I honestly cannot comprehend what RJ was thinking with her.

 

One of the most brilliant things about this series is that all the characters suffer from some kind of bias and don't always make good decisions. (unfortunately this seems to happen a lot for the villains too. Seemingly even more so but whatever)

 

But Cadsuane is ALWAYS right. I've yet to see her be wrong about anything and characters who don't listen to her are treated as at worst fools or at least misguided. She's always in control of a conversation. She's always got a plan and a backup and she commands an incredible amount of respect. and she has an ultra powerful and useful ter'angreal in her hair (I know she destroys Semirhage with it. I'm still mad about that in and of itself) How am I meant to take the antagonists seriously if they're always making mistakes and yet she never does?

 

In fact it's annoying because it defies a trend RJ had been building up in the series. That people of legendary status aren't as good as the stories say. This is apparently true for every character who isn't Cadsuane, Name one Forsaken who lives up to their hype.

 

you might be able to give explanations  but it's not gonna help the underlying tension destroying issue that this creates... or maybe this is all just me since most people seem to love her.

[clutzyninja]

Cadsuane will eventually show some cracks in her character.  Keep reading

[ratswot]

Cadsuane = Harriet. Nuff said.

[Suttree]

You are wrong about Cads destroying Semi. For the rest, just RAFO Emperor.

 

As for who Cads equals:

 

RJ

And Cadsuane? She's the tough maiden aunt a lot of us have had. Not the one who tries to keep you a child your whole life. She's the one who began expecting at least some adult responses out of you at about age six, the one who was willing to hand you responsibilities that everyone else thought you were too young for. You probably had a more nerve-wracking time, and more excitement and adventure, with her than you did with any three or four other adults in your life.

[ratswot]

 

You are wrong about Cads destroying Semi. For the rest, just RAFO Emperor.

 

As for who Cads equals:

 

RJ

 

I wasn't sure who did the spanking, slapping and calling people "boy" in RJ's family. My guess was Harriet.

[Suttree]

Ha. That's your take away from the character? Very deep reading there rat.

[EmperorAllspice]

By destroying I meant ruining her plan. Semi wouldn't have been caught if it weren't for her and that damn net

[clutzyninja]

And besides, Cad always right?  She failed at her most important task, keeping Rand in line.  Made a bloody mess of it would be more accurate.  Her attitude and "always being right" IS her weakness and character flaw.

[nolirion]

Cadsuane is a Meta Aes Sedai , she was anoying at first but I saw the merit of what she did .

[Rhienne]

Cadsuane is about as good as an AS can get - she does everything that AS are supposed to do, but often don't.  She has genuinely noble goals, doesn't have time for fools, and gets things done rather than manoeuvring for personal gain.  However, she also has many of the flaws that most AS have - mostly a very condescending attitude, and the expectation of respect from everyone before she has done anything to earn it in their eyes.  She is also likely to have an inherent bias towards men given she is from Far Madding.

[EmperorAllspice]

Cadsuane is a Meta Aes Sedai , she was anoying at first but I saw the merit of what she did .

 

Yes, but I don't just think in terms of "merit" and "the right thing to do". A character's personality has to be likeable on top of that.

 

and again, the fact that she's so often doing the correct thing is annoying, because the story is then expecting me to side with a catastrophically condescending jerk.

[David Selig]

 How is she always right? The way she treated Rand right from the start was just dumb, insulting and provoking him every step of the way. If not for Min's viewing that he needs Cadsuane (which she had no idea about), he wouldn't have allowed her to become his advisor in a million years.

[nolirion]

 How is she always right? The way she treated Rand right from the start was just dumb, insulting and provoking him every step of the way. If not for Min's viewing that he needs Cadsuane (which she had no idea about), he wouldn't have allowed her to become his advisor in a million years.

Most of what she said is usefull to Rand , and you forget easely how Moraine treated him , her approche his actually a good one , she don't try to cajole him or threathen him into doing what she want . In a way she is like Min, while she do what she does because he his the dragon reborn she don't treat him as the mythic figure he his .

She keep him grounded , amongs other thing he needed to be reminded he was not the "Creator ";

 

 

Cadsuane is a Meta Aes Sedai , she was anoying at first but I saw the merit of what she did .

 

Yes, but I don't just think in terms of "merit" and "the right thing to do". A character's personality has to be likeable on top of that.

 

and again, the fact that she's so often doing the correct thing is annoying, because the story is then expecting me to side with a catastrophically condescending jerk.

 

Just like Sorilea , Cadsuane as experience , she is quite likeable when you come to understand her motive and a part of her past . Good friends are not often the one who keep being nice to you , they are the one tell it rough to you when you need it . You are right to be annoyed with her off course , I am just telling you the way I see it .

[Plato]

I don't understand how people can be bothered by her.  She is so no-nonsense and gets things done well enough.  Compared to the other Aes Sedai, it's a breath of fresh air!

[EmperorAllspice]

I don't understand how people can be bothered by her.  She is so no-nonsense and gets things done well enough.  Compared to the other Aes Sedai, it's a breath of fresh air!

 

I don't read stories to watch people get things done. I read them to watch the heroes fail and grow as a result of said failures, only to fail again. And if you're going to have a character who gets things done I'd rather they not be a condescending jerk.

 

And again, I just hate how she lives up to her legend but the Forsaken don't. It makes it hard to buy the Forsaken as credible adversaries. (shrug)

[Suttree]

The way she treated Rand right from the start was just dumb, insulting and provoking him every step of the way. If not for Min's viewing that he needs Cadsuane (which she had no idea about), he wouldn't have allowed her to become his advisor in a million years.

 

David I thought I remember you being in on some of the old Cads discussions and having a different view? In fact we know she did a ton of research on Rand and tested his character and sanity in their first meeting. She fell on a course of action based on the results that the WOs advocated as well.

 

"Most men will take what is offered, if it seems attractive and pleasant," Sorilea said. "Once, we thought of Rand al'Thor so. Unfortunately, it is too late to change the path we walk. Now, he suspects whatever is offered freely. Now, if I wanted him to accept something, I would pretend I did not want him to have it. If I wanted to stay close to him, I would pretend indifference to whether I ever saw him again." Once more, those eyes focused on Cadsuane, green augers. Not trying to see what lay inside her head. The woman knew.

 

- The Path of Daggers, New Alliances

 

Here decision on how to proceed was absolutely correct:

 

"If you want to see what a man is made of, push him from a direction he doesn't expect. There's good metal in that boy, I think, but he's going to be difficult." Steepling her fingers, she peered across them at the wall, musing to herself. "He has a rage in him fit to burn the world, and he holds it by a hair. Push him too far off balance .... Phaw! Al'Thor's not so hard yet as Logain Ablar or Mazrim

Taim, but a hundred times as difficult, I fear."

 

- A Crown of Swords, Diamonds and Stars

 

 

After how he was treated by other AS there was no other course of action she could have taken. He would have been distrustful of anything else.

 

But I must wait for him to come to me. You see the way he runs roughshod over Alanna and the others. It will be hard enough teaching him, if he does ask. He fights guidance, he thinks he must do everything, learn everything, on his own, and if I do not make him work for it, he won't learn at all."

 

- Winter’s Heart, Bonds

 

 

It should be noted that Moiraine told Eggy and AVi that this was exactly what Rand needed.

 

Rand will need both of you in the days to come. You handle his temper well – though I may say your methods are unusual. He will need people who cannot be driven away or quelled by his rages, who will tell him what he must hear instead of what they think he wants to.”

 

- The Fires of Heaven, News Comes To Cairhien

 

Towards the end the deterioration of things was as much do to Rand's pyschological disintegration, he saw not only Cads but everyone in the worst possible light. The reality is she saved his life multiple times, she executed a perfect defense at the cleansing, and she out of all the AS swore to do what was best for him, not herself or the WT. It may have taken a lucky stroke at the end but Rand states the truth of the matter:

"I was broken," Rand said, hands behind his back. "And then, remarkably, I was reforged. I think he almost had me, Egwene. It was Cadsuane who set me to fixing it...

 

- Towers of Midnight

 

 

 She is also likely to have an inherent bias towards men given she is from Far Madding.

 

 Again she treats people based on merit. She isn't put off by the unconventional when it comes to things like bonding men.

 

While Merise had become somewhat accustomed to doing the unthinkable—most sisters would faint at the very idea of bonding a man who could channel—she was never comfortable giving them voice. Cadsuane was, yet she kept her voice neutral.

 

- Crossroads of Twilight, Ornaments

 

In addition she was the one AS to develop a method of care in which men who are severed can go on to live a full, productive life. She thinks outside the box and per RJ is "remarkably adaptable".

[Mr Ares]

 

I don't understand how people can be bothered by her.  She is so no-nonsense and gets things done well enough.  Compared to the other Aes Sedai, it's a breath of fresh air!

 

I don't read stories to watch people get things done. I read them to watch the heroes fail and grow as a result of said failures, only to fail again. And if you're going to have a character who gets things done I'd rather they not be a condescending jerk.

That sounds tremendously dull.

 

Personally, Cadsuane reminds me of me somewhat, and if I've learnt anything from being me, it's that it is entirely possible to be right almost all the time, be incredibly condescending and rude to everyone, and still, bizarre as it may seem, manage to be likeable. Some of use being better gives the rest of you something to aspire to.

[MarkDiLillo]

The only thing about Cadsuane I didn't like was how she acted towards Rand in public.  She can call him boy and talk down to him all she wants in private because that is their understanding, but it was just flat out unrealistic and absurd for her to treat him that way with others in the room.  Nobody would ever act that way in the real world.

[EmperorAllspice]

 

 

I don't understand how people can be bothered by her.  She is so no-nonsense and gets things done well enough.  Compared to the other Aes Sedai, it's a breath of fresh air!

 

I don't read stories to watch people get things done. I read them to watch the heroes fail and grow as a result of said failures, only to fail again. And if you're going to have a character who gets things done I'd rather they not be a condescending jerk.

That sounds tremendously dull.

 

Personally, Cadsuane reminds me of me somewhat, and if I've learnt anything from being me, it's that it is entirely possible to be right almost all the time, be incredibly condescending and rude to everyone, and still, bizarre as it may seem, manage to be likeable. Some of use being better gives the rest of you something to aspire to.

 

 

Well you're failing at being likeable right now.

 

But whatever. It's obviously just me who has a problem with her.

 

... not sure what I can do about that :(

[EmperorAllspice]

I just feel completely lost. Being the only person who finds a character detestable and not being able to defend that view in any way.

 

I just look at a character like Nynaeve. A jerk who was done so well because the story and the characters are AWARE that she's a jerk and has a sense of irony about it. She pays for being condescending and mean. I can't side with the person who's completely in control of a situation. But whenever I say that. I'm called out on it. I don't get it!

 

... (deep breath) I'm losing my mind

[Rhienne]

I just feel completely lost. Being the only person who finds a character detestable and not being able to defend that view in any way.

 

I just look at a character like Nynaeve. A jerk who was done so well because the story and the characters are AWARE that she's a jerk and has a sense of irony about it. She pays for being condescending and mean. I can't side with the person who's completely in control of a situation. But whenever I say that. I'm called out on it. I don't get it!

 

... (deep breath) I'm losing my mind

You're not alone.  A lot of people dislike her, myself included.  She goes into that (large) pile of characters that I am sure would make me want to throttle them if I had to spend more than 5 minutes in their vicinity, but just because Cadsuane is infuriating, doesn't mean that she isn't a good, strong-willed, and noble woman who is also very capable.  I'm not 100% convinced that her methods were right - I think she came precariously close to pushing Rand over the edge completely without being aware of it, but I think she had the right intentions and did the best with the knowledge she had.

[EmperorAllspice]

 

I just feel completely lost. Being the only person who finds a character detestable and not being able to defend that view in any way.

 

I just look at a character like Nynaeve. A jerk who was done so well because the story and the characters are AWARE that she's a jerk and has a sense of irony about it. She pays for being condescending and mean. I can't side with the person who's completely in control of a situation. But whenever I say that. I'm called out on it. I don't get it!

 

... (deep breath) I'm losing my mind

You're not alone.  A lot of people dislike her, myself included.  She goes into that (large) pile of characters that I am sure would make me want to throttle them if I had to spend more than 5 minutes in their vicinity, but just because Cadsuane is infuriating, doesn't mean that she isn't a good, strong-willed, and noble woman who is also very capable.  I'm not 100% convinced that her methods were right - I think she came precariously close to pushing Rand over the edge completely without being aware of it, but I think she had the right intentions and did the best with the knowledge she had.

 

And the thing about me is that i don't like her for precisely that reason. I crave failure. I love watching heroes struggle, lose and be humbled. Every character save her seems to have these things happen to them at one point or another. Do any of those things happen to her later on? How long does it take for cads to figure out how to break Semi? Does she have to spend a while thinking about it? is she initially at a loss?

[Rhienne]

I don't want to spoil anything for you, but yes, there are scenes later on where she isn't in control.

[BFG]

definitely not alone, Cads is up there with Eg at being most hated. 

 

I also agree with others, without Mins viewing she'd have gotten nowhere near Rand, but that's probably true no matter how she acted. 

[ratswot]

Ha. That's your take away from the character? Very deep reading there rat.

 

My nick on this forum is "ratswot". Kindly refer to me as "ratswot" ONLY.