Okay, seriously, why does Tuon still think channelers are evil if she knows she can channel?

[False Dragon1991]

This is the most hypocritical character I have ever read about. Tuon can channel, she knows that every suldam is a channeler and has seen other suldam channel. This view cannot co-exist with her old belief that all channelers are animals and inherently evil. This is like somebody who is Jewish organizing the holocaust and pretending they are German. Tuon is a horrible and contemptible person for this. Yet the text wants to portray her as a strong sympathetic POV character in the same league as Egwene and Elayne? Somebody to help present the Seanchan as sympathetic?  Really wish the text would quit trying to do this every chance it can get. I am sure there were nice people in the Wehrmacht, that doesn't mean anyone should like Nazi Germany or want that society to survive. 

 

 

[Suttree]

They give us the answer in the books:

 

KoD

“I am nothing like these women, Toy. Nothing like them. Perhaps I could learn, but I choose not to, just as I choose not to steal or commit murder. That makes all the difference.”

 

Regardless though we know she has been discussing the topic with Setalle Anan and is open at least considering other fews, she was even said to concede a few points.

[False Dragon1991]

They give us the answer in the books:

 

KoD

“I am nothing like these women, Toy. Nothing like them. Perhaps I could learn, but I choose not to, just as I choose not to steal or commit murder. That makes all the difference.”

 

Regardless though we know she has been discussing the topic with Setalle Anan and is open at least considering other fews, she was even said to concede a few points.

 

The Seanchan collar every woman who CAN channel, not just those who are actively channeling. Tuon surely realises that if she can channel, which is what every damane is collared for, then she should be collared herself. This is the character shifting the goal posts.  Going from what a woman is to what she does as a conscious act. Which is dumb because the Seanchan collar women on the basis oif what they are not on the discretion of the individual. Not to mention that there is no rational justification for the One Power being inherently evil and making others use it for you. This is like saying "I would never steal or murder. But I would collar this woman and make her do it for me". That is the most stupid argument and position I have ever heard. Using the One Power is evil and the Seanchan do it all the time if now Tuon is saying "Oh it doesn't matter if you can channel only if you use the One Power." For a supposedly intelligent character she sure has came up with some serious bullshit that she can't smell.

 

I seriously hope the Last Battle kills off most of these disgusting people. Have Trollocs make some Seanchan pies.  

[Suttree]

 

They give us the answer in the books:

 

KoD

“I am nothing like these women, Toy. Nothing like them. Perhaps I could learn, but I choose not to, just as I choose not to steal or commit murder. That makes all the difference.”

 

Regardless though we know she has been discussing the topic with Setalle Anan and is open at least considering other fews, she was even said to concede a few points.

 

The Seanchan collar every woman who CAN channel, not just those who are actively channeling.

 

 

Not true. They collar every sparker who 100% will channel at some point. Tuon is a learner, if she never chooses to learn and embrace the source she never will.

 

I do agree though that all it does is shift the power from one group to another. That is the belief of their culture though(no matter how disgusting and misguided), a sparker is someone that needs to be controlled.

[Rhienne]

Tuon's argument is completely irrational - no marath'damane is given the option of choosing not to channel.  It is their potential to channel which causes them to be leashed.

[Suttree]

She is saying that is what makes her different though.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Tuon's argument is completely irrational - no marath'damane is given the option of choosing not to channel.  It is their potential to channel which causes them to be leashed.

 

Rationality kind of takes a backseat when you're talking about an absolute monarchy eh?

[False Dragon1991]

Besides, using a damane IS USING the One Power. If the issue is just that this power is too much then the logic behind the Suldam falls apart. You just gave the power from one group of people to another. Unless the issue (which IMO it is) is that damane are subhuman and inherently evil; an evil voided if they are controlled by "normal" people. Tuons argument makes no sense in this context because she acknowledges that being able to channel is not the issue and says that USING the One Power is evil. Using a damane IS using the One power. Seriously, this woman is stupid. She is making a very flawed argument. Seanchan have no problem with the use and application of the One Power. But they genuinely believe that the women who use this power are corrupted and subhuman and therefore cannot be trusted with this power. Whilst the "normal" suldam can. Tuons argument doesn't even make sense. Her culture USES the One Power on a constant basis. But here she is saying I don't use the One power and using the One power is evil.

 

These people are worse than the Freys. Hell they make the Freys likable, at least Walder Frey was funny.

[Suttree]

Besides, using a damane IS USING the One Power. If the issue is just that this power is too much then the logic behind the Suldam falls apart. You just gave the power from one group of people to another. Unless the issue (which IMO it is) is that damane are subhuman and inherently evil; an evil voided if they are controlled by "normal" people.

 

The logic is someone who will channel no matter what needs to be controlled. They in essence will be a theif or murderer at some point no matter what they do. No one is arguing it's right, they are just saying that's how they view it. There is a distinction there and she is saying that is what makes her different.

 

It would be totally unbelievable for her to just 180 overnight on the topic. It should be noted that this issue and changing Seanchan norms likely would have been addressed in the Outrigges novels. Unfortunately we will never know how it would have played out.

[Rhienne]

I agree with False Dragon - if a nation believes the OP is too powerful to be controlled by an individual, why do they then transfer control of it to individuals?  They have nothing to suggest that sul'dam have inherently more trustworthy or Seanchan-goal-oreintated than damane.

[False Dragon1991]

 

Besides, using a damane IS USING the One Power. If the issue is just that this power is too much then the logic behind the Suldam falls apart. You just gave the power from one group of people to another. Unless the issue (which IMO it is) is that damane are subhuman and inherently evil; an evil voided if they are controlled by "normal" people.

 

 

It would be totally unbelievable for her to just 180 overnight on the topic. It should be noted that this issue and changing Seanchan norms likely would have been addressed in the Outrigges novels. Unfortunately we will never know how it would have played out.

 

 

 

Egeanin kind of did and Tuon was with Matt for quite a while and the nature of these revelations should be earth shattering. Plus Tuon does use the One Power whenever she uses a damane, hence she is being stupid in maintaining this logic of using the One Power being evil.

 

I would not want to have read that. A good deed does not wash out the bad. These people deserve everything they get.

[Suttree]

They have nothing to suggest that sul'dam have inherently more trustworthy or Seanchan-goal-oreintated than damane.

 

There entire history with Luthair and the channelers found upon reaching that land suggests it.

 

No doubt that it is merely shifting the power from one group to another, but it is done in a way that they deem safe. Almost the entire imperial history backs that up from their perspective. Also they seem to make a distinction between directly using the OP and not.

 

@FD

 

Just want to point out again I am not trying to defend it, just attempting to explain the perspective. In fact you will see in old threads like this I have argued as loudly as anyone against their culture.

[False Dragon1991]

There is no distinction though. Tuon now knows that ONLY another channeler can use an adam. That means using the adma requires use of the One Power. Tuon is ignoring that very logical conclusion and the hypocrisy of her own position. 

 

 

TBH I don't get either how if they know about the Prophecies of the Dragon and therefore the Age of Legends from which the Dragon came that they could hold that channelers need to be collared. The AoL was a utopian society founded on free channelers helping the betterment of society. If they know about the dragon and the dark one then by all rights they should also know this. Especially since Hawkwings armies would know what was general knowledge among the educated elite back in the day.  Nor did I get how the Seanchan had no knowledge of what the White Tower or the Aes Sedai were. Luthair and Hawkwing were perfectly aware of them when they crossed the Aryth Ocean. It seems very unlikely that before the Return they would not have done archival research to learn what they could. Its just one of those odd things which made no sense. I also don't understand how Hawkwings armies developed a cultural practice which went entirely against their own culture which had had Aes Sedai as an active functioning part of society for millennia and who had helped save the world during the Trolloc Wars. Unless Ishmael went and burnt every library to the ground I don't see how this shift was achieved. Not everyone agreed with Hawkwings siege of Tar Valon and the cultural norm was repsect towards Aes Sedai.  

 

Anyway, I am sick of these villains and want them all dead. Indeed I am annoyed that the plot seems to be going with the "Oh we NEED them for the Last Battle so badly" and "Oh we have to cave in to all their megalomaniac demands and kiss their boots or we're all doomed. Doomed!". Obviously the solution doesn't just involve Rand picking up callandor, taking Aviendha n Nynaeve and blowing up Ebou Dar, that fool Tuon and the Seanchan armies. Which would take, what, ten minutes with travelling at no loss to his forces? I don't see why the text is portraying the Seanchan as something that has to be tolerated.   

[Suttree]

Sorry forgot this link in my post above where you can see my views and what I've argued in the past:

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/60395-freedom-or-security/?hl=%20seanchan%20%20stability

 

 

 

There is no distinction though. Tuon now knows that ONLY another channeler can use an adam. That means using the adma requires use of the One Power. Tuon is ignoring that very logical conclusion and the hypocrisy of her own position. 

 

 

TBH I don't get either how if they know about the Prophecies of the Dragon and therefore the Age of Legends from which the Dragon came that they could hold that channelers need to be collared. The AoL was a utopian society founded on free channelers helping the betterment of society. If they know about the dragon and the dark one then by all rights they should also know this. Especially since Hawkwings armies would know what was general knowledge among the educated elite back in the day.  

 

Using the a'dam does not require using the OP. There is no active connection to the source and that is the distinction.

 

As for Hakwing's son he certainly knew the truth and merely used the a'dam to suppress the rogue/evil channelers that were on that continent. He knew the truth of the matter but the knowledge was lost:

BWB

It is fairly certain that in the beginning Luthair knew that sul'dam were women who could be trained to use the One Power, but with his antipathy toward Aes Sedai this information was likely suppressed. Certainly it was lost within a hundred years.

 

 

In regards to the prophecies they say nothing about the AoL and what it was like. The prophecies they believe in came over with Luthair and were corrupted by Ishy.

[Yamezt]

I agree with False Dragon - if a nation believes the OP is too powerful to be controlled by an individual, why do they then transfer control of it to individuals?  They have nothing to suggest that sul'dam have inherently more trustworthy or Seanchan-goal-oreintated than damane.

I think their argument essentially requires you to reduce damane to an object - and it is better understood if you are in a country where firearms is illegal to the general populace. If you see Sul'dams as solders/police that are allowed firearms, then you can essentially deny them the right to use their weapons if they prove mistrustful (like rena and bethamin) and we get a hint that some Sul'dum are never given the right to be "complete." In the scene to free Edesina and Teslyn, there is (however poor) some control on Damane being released out (Egeanine said the Der'Sul'Dum allowed her a pick on any).

 

With the Seanchan method, you can control the time the Sul'dam has access to the OP and when they don't. By letting channellers "roam" free you never have any of those controls.

 

Again, I am not suggesting what the Seanchan does is right, just putting forward an analogy to understand that logic.

[False Dragon1991]

How do  the Seanchan know that the source is evil then? Do they think its the Dark One? If they think they are being corrupted by him then why don't they kill channelers like the Whitecloaks?

 

(BTW that scene with Rand n Semihurge was so OMFG. The madman was the only one talking sense! :O Plus it has given me an inkling about how I think Rand might kill the DO without tainting the source again.)  

[Agitel]

Before the arrival of Hawking's armies, Seanchan was ruled by a bunch of warring nations dominated by channelers. The view Hawking had of Aes Sedai was that they used their power to justify meddling in and controlling other nations and just taking advantage of the general threat of having that power to intimidate others. I'm not agreeing with the Seanchan, but their rationale is rooted in some truths. That doesn't mean their solution is better.

 

Also, I don't think the Seanchan are being made sympathetic. I never got that impression. Just because they aren't evil in all respects or are presented in a gray fashion doesn't mean we're supposed to agree with them. Many nations around the world practiced slavery, often very brutal kinds, and engaged in expansionary and colonial policies. But it's not like all of those nations were just pure evil up until those horrendous practices were abolished.

 

And do we need a new topic every few days from you ranting about the Seanchan? This is a discussion forum, and all of these topics have some merit on their own, but these really just boil down to the same thing when they're all "I hate Seanchan" rants from the same poster in a short span of time about basically the same broad theme.

[Gnarlhorn]

Let's not forget that the Seanchan also have more traditional slaves in the so'jhin.

 

Seanchan is a fascist state in the truest sense of the word.  There is really no debating it.  They are totalitarian, militaristic, imperialist, ultranationalist, and ethnocentric (not with regard to ethnicity per se, but culturally and with regard to channellers).

 

There is no ground to defend them on with the sole exception of the fact that they intend to fight the Shadow in the last battle.  It's hard to imagine why Jordan doesn't paint them in a worse light than he does, considering how obviously they are modeled from actual historical fascist and genocidal states.

[nolirion]

 

There is no ground to defend them on with the sole exception of the fact that they intend to fight the Shadow in the last battle. 

They have no intention of doing that , what they want is to conquer the land , Tuon doesn't believe in Trolloc or Myrdraal until she see one , and then it's more about pest control than anything else , she doesn't even apologise for Semirhage .

Thanks to her prophecies perhaps , the Dragon must bow to her and then go on with a duel with the Do , that's what the fight against the shadow is to her .

[Mr Ares]

Tuon's argument is completely irrational - no marath'damane is given the option of choosing not to channel.  It is their potential to channel which causes them to be leashed.

All the marath'damane are either sparkers (who have no choice and will channel regardless) or learners who have already started channeling (and thus already made their choice). Or are sul'dam who have come so close to channeling they can be held by the a'dam. Thus it is not the potential to channel, it is the certainty that one has channeled, will channel (not could, will) or is so close to channeling as to be no different.

 

Besides, using a damane IS USING the One Power. If the issue is just that this power is too much then the logic behind the Suldam falls apart. You just gave the power from one group of people to another. Unless the issue (which IMO it is) is that damane are subhuman and inherently evil; an evil voided if they are controlled by "normal" people. Tuons argument makes no sense in this context because she acknowledges that being able to channel is not the issue and says that USING the One Power is evil. Using a damane IS using the One power. Seriously, this woman is stupid. She is making a very flawed argument. Seanchan have no problem with the use and application of the One Power. But they genuinely believe that the women who use this power are corrupted and subhuman and therefore cannot be trusted with this power. Whilst the "normal" suldam can. Tuons argument doesn't even make sense. Her culture USES the One Power on a constant basis. But here she is saying I don't use the One power and using the One power is evil.

When does she say the OP is evil? The Seanchan believe that channelers are subhuman - whether they are born subhuman or choose to discard their humanity is hardly relevant, what is important is that they are not human. Humans are willing to use animals to do work. If touching the Source makes one inhuman, if it corrupts one, then having the control of the Source in the hands of a human who has not touched it - using the channeler as insulation, in a sense - is not an inconsistent viewpoint.

 

Anyway, I am sick of these villains and want them all dead. Indeed I am annoyed that the plot seems to be going with the "Oh we NEED them for the Last Battle so badly" and "Oh we have to cave in to all their megalomaniac demands and kiss their boots or we're all doomed. Doomed!". Obviously the solution doesn't just involve Rand picking up callandor, taking Aviendha n Nynaeve and blowing up Ebou Dar, that fool Tuon and the Seanchan armies. Which would take, what, ten minutes with travelling at no loss to his forces? I don't see why the text is portraying the Seanchan as something that has to be tolerated.   

How big an army does the Shadow have? How many channelers, how many sa'angreal?Can Rand defeat them all, without the Seanchan? Is it worth the risk? The viewpoint of most of the characters is not that the Seanchan are good and wonderful people, it is not that their views on slavery are good, it is that they are not Darkfriends, and thus should fight with the other forces for the Light.

 

And I have to agree with Agitel's last point - we get it, you want all the Seanchan to die horribly. There's no need for the endless repetition.

 

Let's not forget that the Seanchan also have more traditional slaves in the so'jhin.

 

Seanchan is a fascist state in the truest sense of the word.  There is really no debating it.  They are totalitarian, militaristic, imperialist, ultranationalist, and ethnocentric (not with regard to ethnicity per se, but culturally and with regard to channellers).

 

There is no ground to defend them on with the sole exception of the fact that they intend to fight the Shadow in the last battle.  It's hard to imagine why Jordan doesn't paint them in a worse light than he does, considering how obviously they are modeled from actual historical fascist and genocidal states.

Well, consider their good points: they're a fascist state in the truest sense of the word. They are totalitarian, militaristic, imperialist and ultranationalist. Don't say it like it's a bad thing. As for why RJ doesn't paint them in a worse light, how? Their actions are what people already use to condemn them, so it's not like they need to be made gratuitously more evil, and the other cultures in the books are of a similar period. We've had many cultures throughout history that practice slavery, and endorse many things we find abhorrent. Doubtless future cultures will look back on the barbaric cultures of the West in the early 21st century. The protagonists don't exactly need to condemn the Seanchan more. RJ doesn't need to impose his views on the narrative like that.

[Rhienne]

I'm not that clear on the exact differences between learners and sparkers, but don't many of the sul'dam bring themselves to the point of channeling whether they want to or not by long experience with the a'dam?  I.e. many of the sul'dam essentially move from the 'potential channelers' camp to 'definite channelers' camp?  Surely Tuon can't argue against that?  Even that would be a fairly large shake-up of Seanchan culture - many sul'dam becoming damane, the knowledge that anyone who became sul'dam would eventually have to become a damane.

[nolirion]

I'm not that clear on the exact differences between learners and sparkers, but don't many of the sul'dam bring themselves to the point of channeling whether they want to or not by long experience with the a'dam?  I.e. many of the sul'dam essentially move from the 'potential channelers' camp to 'definite channelers' camp?  Surely Tuon can't argue against that?  Even that would be a fairly large shake-up of Seanchan culture - many sul'dam becoming damane, the knowledge that anyone who became sul'dam would eventually have to become a damane.

Sparker have the inate abilie , meaning at the age of 16 or 18  , depends if you are male or female , they start channeling without meaning or even being conscious about it . Many of those sparkers die because they can't control the side effect , the greatest strength of the seanchean is precisely that through the collar none of their sparker die . "learners" on the other hand cannot channel without being thaught , those are the Sul'dam .

Eventually the Sul'dam learn to channel through their damane .

As to your second question Tuon isn't arguing from a theorical point of view, she is arguing for the benefit of her empire , even if her own little logic is a nonsense , she doesn't want to acknowledge Egwene point because it would weaken both her claim to the captured channeller and her empire .

[Barid Bel Medar]

Agitel has a point. It's fine to discuss the pro's and Con's of the Seanchan, but we don't need a separate topic for every new piece. Let's keep it under the topics that are already open. 

 

On topic: As Mr. Ares said, the text doesn't seek to validate the Seanchan or make them seem good. It is only showing a realistic portrayal of a society, very similar to what Nazi Germany would have been like. Just because Seanchan society has some very abhorrent practises, doesn't mean that every single Seanchan citizen is an insanely evil cartoon villain. Nor were the German people crazy demon-worshippers. The Seanchan people are people like all others who's society has unfortunately been corrupted by the Shadow.

 

Just because they were raised to believe channelers are sub-human - not to mention and dissension is ruthlessly quashed- it doesn't mean they deserve to die. That is the point of the Seanchan in the story. Their system is flawed and degrading - that was established when the Seanchan were thought of as insidious monsters for the first 7 books - but the people are just like any other unfortunately blinded by corruption of the Shadow and a thousand years of propaganda.

 

It is a perfectly rational assessment of human society. When two different cultures clash at first, they both view each other as alien. When they begin to interact, they realise that they are both human - with the good and bad.

 

Why can't the Seanchan all be evil maniacs and drown in their own evil schemes to be smote by righteous justice? 

Because it is unrealistic. That is not how the world works - WoT and real. There is a lot more than simple black and white morals at play. 

[False Dragon1991]

Before the arrival of Hawking's armies, Seanchan was ruled by a bunch of warring nations dominated by channelers. The view Hawking had of Aes Sedai was that they used their power to justify meddling in and controlling other nations and just taking advantage of the general threat of having that power to intimidate others. I'm not agreeing with the Seanchan, but their rationale is rooted in some truths. That doesn't mean their solution is better.

 

Also, I don't think the Seanchan are being made sympathetic. I never got that impression. Just because they aren't evil in all respects or are presented in a gray fashion doesn't mean we're supposed to agree with them. Many nations around the world practiced slavery, often very brutal kinds, and engaged in expansionary and colonial policies. But it's not like all of those nations were just pure evil up until those horrendous practices were abolished.

 

And do we need a new topic every few days from you ranting about the Seanchan? This is a discussion forum, and all of these topics have some merit on their own, but these really just boil down to the same thing when they're all "I hate Seanchan" rants from the same poster in a short span of time about basically the same broad theme.

 

You're right I probably should stop going on about it at length.

 

 

Although I think the term "grey" is a little bit misplaced. Greyness implies moral parity between two sides and factions or that there isn't a clear right or wrong way of doing things. I just don't see that with them. Plus I dislike how in a lot of books there seems to be this belief that if you show somebody as having a few redeeming points and having human motivations then this automatically disqualifies them from being possibly evil. If anything that humanity just makes them more evil for doing what they do because unlike a darkspawn which is inherently evil and cannot help itself they have choice n reason and should know better. 

 

 

BTW just minor thing I didn't get. How come suldam aren't affected by the adam when they are young and tested to be damane. But later on Egwene can clamp one on a suldam and it works? If you don't need to channel to use an adam and its in the blood then surely it would be impossible to separate a suldam from a damane by this test. Also, surely somebody noticed that a damane could also use an adam or some suldam were dicking around with the bracelets and realised. After several thousand years you would expect this to be learned.

 

Also, Hawkwing was spawned into the pattern to correct flaws in it, I assume this was mainly the really big False Dragon at the time. So how come his Seanchan became something which is entirely to the detriment of winning the Last Battle at the moment and for most of the books? Why wouldn't the pattern work to correct the Seanchan if the shadow was influencing it like this (and waiting a few millennia for Matt to show up is leaving a little late BTW! :D)?  

[BFG]

The a'dam picks up sparkers (or people who have already channeled).  The sul'dam are those that learn to channel.  I think testing continues (including damane) until a woman is 25(?) at which point if you were going to channel you'd have done it.  At that point the testing stops.  A sul'dam using an a'dam gradually comes closer and closer to the brink of channeling, but it takes time, so presumably longer than the 10 years or so that the testing occurs over.

 

There is hypocrisy with some of the sul'dam.  We see Bethamin, Renna and Seta all choose to keep the sul'dam being able to channel a secret instead of doing what, to them, would be the right thing to do and become damane.  However we also see some sul'dam choose to become damane (I think it's mentioned in Andor after Rand sent all the captured damane/sul'dam to Elayne)