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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Gnarlhorn

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  1. Becaue then they would be called Draghkar. If they could all fly then they would have a huge advantage because they could ignore any fire from channeling wouldn't they? Or would Egwene only have done the same amount of damage to the Seanchan if they were on the ground instead? Well the interesting thing about that is that all the scenes with Draghkar that I can remember involve them being shot down quite easily, both by archers and channelers. I don't have the best memory though so I could be wrong.
  2. I agree with this. I definitely wanted to like Cadsuane, and often I did like her. Compared to other AS who drove me completely mad, she was great. I have really only have one main complaint with her, and that is the way she treated Nynaeve. Nyn didn't deserve her treatment at the hands of Cads. It would have been really cool, and strikingly human, if Cads had developed with Nynaeve the kind of relationship she developed with Sorilea. I wish RJ/BS had done this. Instead, Cads treats her like crap, which was utterly stupid. Obviously Cads' treatment of Rand, at face value, was terrible and idiotic. However, I like to think that Cads was fulfilling her prophecy in the only way it possibly could have happened, so it wasn't really her fault so much as it was her destiny and beyond her control.
  3. I pretty much agree with your assessment of the battle. I expected that you would feel that way when you read it. While it's certainly possible to explain away each individual curiosity, as Rhienne has done above, it does little to make the entire event believable, to me. I only have a few things to add to your critique, because I do agree with most of your points. The first is that they attacked with ~100 raken, correct? Raken should be, and have been shown to be, incredibly easy to shoot down. If 20 sisters shoot down one each, and Egwene shoots down merely 10, that's a third of their force. That should hardly take more than a few minutes. If they aren't attacking together, but rather flying out of range, it just makes the ones in range able to be targeted by even more AS. Really, a surprise attack can do a lot of damage and you can accomplish a lot in the minutes that it takes your enemy to respond. But this battle should have turned within 10 minutes. I don't want to go on and on about how many raken carried this, how many carried that, etc. Suffice it to say I think 100 of them would have been scattered with minimal effort. My next complaint has to do with combat effectiveness of the damane. From what I can gather, damane are artillery. Damane are fielded with regular armies and are meant to blow up a lot of enemies from afar. Their collars, their training, their being led by sul'dam all make sense in this context - they are sentient howitzers and the sul'dam is their crew. Aes Sedai, on the other hand, are duelists. They have broad knowledge of weaves, lots of subtlety and dexterity, and an understanding of the power. As was mentioned by False Dragon1991, it doesn't take a massive amount of firepower to kill a single channeler. Especially in close quarters, AS should have a distinct advantage over damane. They can make decisions more quickly (noone giving them orders), they can adapt, they can utilize a larger variety of weaves, and they can out-maneuver damane. Most(all?) of the One Power duels we witness through PoV are a lot like a sword fight or even a chess game. You bluff, feint, parry, and ultimately try to outsmart and outmaneuver your opponent - even the most powerful channelers we see have to do these things in a duel. Artillery isn't designed or trained to do these things... Aes Sedai are. Here is what I will say about the battle in general. Its impact seems to have been greatly overstated during and immediately after it happened. Obviously there was structural damage to the Tower, and I can't remember how many AS were said to have died or been captured. I think it would be unrealistic to expect more than 10 captured and 10 dead - at most. Nevertheless, though it seemed dramatic at the time, the attack doesn't seem to have really made any difference to the AS's overall battle readiness. Most damage seems to have come from the bloodknives that remained. For that reason, I'd have to venture a guess that the Seanchan were given plot armor for this incident solely for the opportunity to let us see Elaida collared.
  4. Let's not forget that the Seanchan also have more traditional slaves in the so'jhin. Seanchan is a fascist state in the truest sense of the word. There is really no debating it. They are totalitarian, militaristic, imperialist, ultranationalist, and ethnocentric (not with regard to ethnicity per se, but culturally and with regard to channellers). There is no ground to defend them on with the sole exception of the fact that they intend to fight the Shadow in the last battle. It's hard to imagine why Jordan doesn't paint them in a worse light than he does, considering how obviously they are modeled from actual historical fascist and genocidal states.
  5. If anyone cares to give it a shot I'd be interested to see some more characters stat'd out. The Forsaken would be interesting, some more Aes Sedai, Faile, etc.
  6. Thanks for bringing that up. I hadn't remembered that bit. I edited it upwards. Also made a couple more changes... gave Logain a bit more thought and boosted his wis and cha.
  7. They are both 17. Only Perrin is higher, and I would put people like Gaul, Rolan, Luca's strongman, etc at 18 as well. I had actually thought Nynaeve was shorter when I made this. Rather, I didn't realize Egwene was so short. Egwene did have training with the Aiel, which would probably have been enough to bring her strength up to Nynaeve's level despite being a bit more diminutive. But you're right, Nyn probably shouldn't be lower. As to Rand's charisma, remember that this is a snapshot at the end of ToM. Around that time I recall a lot of comments that were something like "Wow, Rand really is a King now... more than a King", and in general a lot of commentary about how charismatic he is. As False Dragon1991 said above, charisma isn't only being agreeable and getting on well with people, though that is important. It's personal magnetism, appearance, force of will, persuasiveness. In my book, Rand is an 18 before even opening his mouth to speak, and that's not considering what happens when his taveren stuff kicks in. Also consider that someone like Moridin or Demandred would also have incredibly high charisma despite being rather less than like-able.
  8. Isn't Cadsuane also around the level of Egwene/Elayne, approaching the bottom tier of Forsaken level power? I thought I remember hearing something along those lines, but I could be wrong. Also, isn't Aviendha just as strong as Egwene/Elayne?
  9. Lol. Great thread. It's tough to choose. I'd probably say Siuan > Nynaeve > Min. For boys, hmmm. We don't really get any good male characters who do something besides fighting, unfortunately. I didn't realize so many people liked Logain until I came to this forum. I am a bit surprised noone has said Androl yet though. I guess I'll go with.. Androl > Logain > Talmanes
  10. Meh, I agree more or less about the Seanchan. I don't have the same gripes about their battle with the Trollocs, I find it perfectly plausible that they could have won there. Trollocs are shown to be almost unbelievably weak time and time again in this series, regardless of who is fighting them. That, in itself, is really quite absurd. The fact that they are nine feet tall and probably weigh 500-700lbs makes it really difficult to believe that any but the most elite humans could match them 1 for 1. Justice is never really done in the series to trollocs, in my view, and if we were never told how large they were, everything we read about them would point them to being roughly equivalent to orcs or even goblins. But yeah, I definitely agree about the White Tower raid. Once you've read further I'd like to discuss it more. The plan sounded patently absurd to me to begin with, as well. On another note, I have to disagree about damane vs. AS. Damane are slaves, in fact, they are barely even individuals, more like semi-intelligent tools. I can't be made to believe that damane are more effective in battle than Aes Sedai. They are more effective weapons, yes, but they are ONLY weapons. Aes Sedai are individuals with free will and autonomy, and that will always make them more valuable on a battlefield than an automaton, no matter how good they are at making things go boom. Fortunately, it never seems to really play out that damane are that much better than Aes Sedai in combat. The true combat advantage for channelers is in the insane War of Power era weaves that Rand brings back. Now if the AS or damane knew THOSE weaves, I would be singing a different tune. In fact, it's really astonishing to me that Rand made no effort to teach his channeling allies all those combat weaves in preparation for the last battle. In the last couple books we see people running around using fireballs and blowing up the ground underneath people.... didn't it occur to anyone that they might be more effective if they were using deathgates, fire pillars, and all that other crazy shit Rand busts out in KoD? I think it is.
  11. Hi all, first post. I figured this had likely been done before but searches turned up nothing. I love making lists and rankings things, so I thought it would be fun to assign D&D style ability scores to the characters in Wheel of Time. A quick note about the numbers for those unfamiliar with D&D. 10-11 represents the average human range, 3 represents the lower limit of human capacity. 12-13 is good, better than the average human. 14-15 is very good, with maybe 2-5% of people exhibiting this level of ability. 16-17 is exceptional and easily places one in the 99th or 99.9th percentile. An 18 is the highest unaugmented (magic, technology) human level for a particularly ability, think Einstein with 18 intelligence, Churchill with 18 charisma, Michael Jordan or Barry Sanders with 18 dexterity. A couple disclaimers: First, these are based on the characters at the end of Book 13, ToM. Many characters would receive drastically different scores during AMoL, and similarly, many have undergone drastic changes from 1-13. Second, I've tried to mostly leave willpower out of consideration. It is typically tied to Wisdom, and sometimes Constitution, but since, for story purposes, nearly every character exhibits periods of supernatural willpower, I mostly try to ignore those in the rankings. Sorry for the long preamble... here is what I came up with. Rand Strength - 17 Dexterity - 17 Constitution - 18 Intelligence - 14 Wisdom - 13 Charisma - 20* A few things make Rand special here (duh). First, his intelligence is hard to gauge because of his memories of LTT, which clearly make him vastly more knowledgeable. Second, his wisdom varies perhaps more wildly than any other character. I believe it settles at this level after the Dragonmount incident. Third, his charisma is clearly a supernatural score, thanks to being ta'veren and everything else. His natural CHA would be 18, and it ranges higher based on how much his ta'veren is at work at the time. Perrin STR - 18 DEX - 14 CON - 16 INT - 10 WIS - 9 CHA - 15 I wasn't exactly sure how to judge his CON, because I couldn't remember as many scenes with him ignoring or quickly recovering from exhaustion, pain, injury, poison, etc. So 16 is an educated guess. His CHA of 15 includes his ta'veren nature, though the CHA, like Rand, can spike when that is working strongly. Perrin is one of the few characters whose wisdom actually declines throughout the series. 9 is probably being generous. Mat STR - 15 DEX - 20 CON - 17 INT - 15 WIS - 12 CHA – 18 Mat's superhuman ability is obviously his luck. While this (usually) helps him in pretty much every aspect of his life, the only ability score it really has a quantitative impact on is his dexterity - evidenced by his uncanny ability to dodge, catch, throw, etc - whereas he would have an 18 naturally. His 18 CHA is largely natural, but does include being ta'veren and his luck. Mat has his moments, but overall his judgement is actually quite good, earning him 12 wisdom. Elayne STR - 9 DEX - 14 CON - 16 INT - 15 WIS - 11 CHA - 18 In those who don't do much physical fighting, STR and DEX scores are mostly guesstimates based on what I know of their body-type. I give Elayne slightly higher STR than many other female characters because she is as tall as most men. Her 18 CHA is natural, and her 16 CON comes from numerous demonstrations of her ability to endure pain, exhaustion, etc, like many of the other characters. Egwene STR - 8 DEX - 13 CON - 17 INT - 16 WIS - 10 CHA - 14 Egwene makes up for a lot with her 16 INT, the highest of the main characters. Her cleverness and shrewdness replaces natural leadership in dealing with the White Tower, hence her merely above average charisma. 10 WIS is almost a gift, at many points she demonstrates lower. Her 13 DEX and 17 CON reflect her training with the Aiel and pain tolerance. Nynaeve STR - 8 DEX - 11 CON - 18 INT - 13 WIS - 15 CHA - 10 Nynaeve, I'm sure many agree, demonstrated more growth in the series than almost any character. This is reflected in her 15 wisdom, which is a cut above the other superboys and supergirls. She never seems to accrue followers or attain much leadership, and combined with her abrasive manners, this gives her a barely average charisma. Almost all the main characters demonstrate incredible constitution, but Nynaeve, like Rand, earns an 18 because of the extraordinary severity of the ordeals she has been able to endure. Aviendha STR - 13 DEX - 17 CON - 17 INT - 11 WIS - 13 CHA - 13 Obviously, Aviendha's combat training gives her outstanding STR and DEX. I'm not biased against Aviendha, but she never seems to demonstrate extraordinary Int, Wis, or Cha. She does manage a higher Wis than the other supergirls aside from Nynaeve, though. Charisma doesn't translate well across cultures, but she is undeniably above average regardless, her sometimes harsh demeanor notwithstanding. Min STR - 8 DEX - 17 CON - 13 INT - 15 WIS - 14 CHA - 14 While Min's knife tricks earn her a 17 DEX, her CON is only a guesstimate. From what I remember, we don't really ever see her physically strained or tested much. She doesn't give as many opportunities as some characters to display her wisdom or intelligence, but she does enough to earn a place near Nynaeve's. Moiraine STR - 6 DEX - 11 CON - 17 INT - 15 WIS - 18 CHA - 17 It's probably no surprise that I've given Moiraine the highest wisdom score, and among the highest scores in intelligence and charisma. While I do like Moiraine, I don't think I'm biased towards her, but it's hard to deny that her judgment, insight, perceptiveness, and overall decision-making is basically without peer in the WoT world. Cadsuane STR - 6 DEX - 9 CON - 15 INT - 16 WIS - 13 CHA - 15 Typical of so many Aes Sedai, her wisdom isn't as high as she'd like others to think, but her superior intelligence gives her abundant tools to make up for/mask that. Her charisma is undoubtedly boosted by her reputation, and it's hard to judge her personal magnetism when so much of her influence is based on bullying and reputation. Nevertheless, it's hard to deny her a high level of charisma. Lan STR - 17 DEX - 18 CON - 18 INT - 13 WIS - 16 CHA - 12 This should mostly go without saying... Here are a bunch more I've really just guessed at since in many cases there isn't enough information to know. Will put them in spoilers.
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