Okay, seriously, why does Tuon still think channelers are evil if she knows she can channel?

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

 

You're right I probably should stop going on about it at length.

 

 

 

 

BTW just minor thing I didn't get. How come suldam aren't affected by the adam when they are young and tested to be damane. But later on Egwene can clamp one on a suldam and it works? If you don't need to channel to use an adam and its in the blood then surely it would be impossible to separate a suldam from a damane by this test. Also, surely somebody noticed that a damane could also use an adam or some suldam were dicking around with the bracelets and realised. After several thousand years you would expect this to be learned.

 

Also, Hawkwing was spawned into the pattern to correct flaws in it, I assume this was mainly the really big False Dragon at the time. So how come his Seanchan became something which is entirely to the detriment of winning the Last Battle at the moment and for most of the books? Why wouldn't the pattern work to correct the Seanchan if the shadow was influencing it like this (and waiting a few millennia for Matt to show up is leaving a little late BTW! :D)?  

 

 

1. You can rant all you want, just keep it in the topics that have already been created

 

2. Not all Sul'dam can be collared. Only those that have trained damane long enough. So they don't get picked up by the tests. Their ability that develops later is explained away by saying they pick it up via the a'dam, not that they can actually channel. Likely many sul'dam realised something was up, but were not willing to give up their position so they refused to look at it. In fact, that's basically how most Seanchan go about the whole buisness. Ignore it all together and if they are confronted with evidence, they deny it out of fear. Tuon does the same thing. She does believe her own excuses to a certain extent, but for the most part she is in denial. 

 

3. The Pattern isn't "good". The Seanchan aren't really endangering the Pattern. They want to "use" the Dragon Reborn to fight the Shadow. It's only when they come back and start their invasion that they become a threat and the Pattern starts it's work via Mat. The Seanchan before had no real bearing on the Pattern, for all their abhorrent behaviour. That's the brilliance of Ishamael's plans. He doesn't attack the Pattern outright and force it to react so-to-speak. He subtly influenced various events which caused chaos years - millennia- later. 

 

Even then, technically, the Seanchan aren't a threat to the Pattern. It's the conflict. The Pattern is weaving towards a truce, however, hypothetically, the will of the Pattern could be done if everyone submitted to the Seanchan and fought the Shadow under the Empire. It wouldn't matter that the Seanchan collar channelers, they are only being manipulated by the Pattern because Rand and co. would never submit to them (rightly so) and the Seanchan won't just give up their Empire. 

 

War between the Seanchan and Rand is the worse possible outcome for the Pattern. It wastes forces on both sides which should be fighting the Shadow. Hence the Pattern's actions now with Mat. 

[Suttree]

I'm not that clear on the exact differences between learners and sparkers, but don't many of the sul'dam bring themselves to the point of channeling whether they want to or not by long experience with the a'dam? I.e. many of the sul'dam essentially move from the 'potential channelers' camp to 'definite channelers' camp?

That's not how it works. Sul'dam get closer and closer with long use but need to consciously "step over the line" to actively channel. Until they do they can't be severed, don't slow etc. as there needs to be an active connection to the source.

 

Also, Hawkwing was spawned into the pattern to correct flaws in it, I assume this was mainly the really big False Dragon at the time. So how come his Seanchan became something which is entirely to the detriment of winning the Last Battle at the moment and for most of the books?

He wasn't a false dragon he was just very strongly ta'veren. Also Ishy was responsible for Hawkwing sending Luthair to Seanchan with corrupted prohecies(the Dragon serving the throne etc) during the intervals of time he was spun out. As Hawkwings counselor he turned him against AS and set up actions which led to the downfall of his empire.

[Rhienne]

 

Rhienne, on 23 Jun 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

I'm not that clear on the exact differences between learners and sparkers, but don't many of the sul'dam bring themselves to the point of channeling whether they want to or not by long experience with the a'dam? I.e. many of the sul'dam essentially move from the 'potential channelers' camp to 'definite channelers' camp?

That's not how it works. Sul'dam get closer and closer with long use but need to consciously "step over the line" to actively channel. Until they do they can't be severed, don't slow etc. as there needs to be an active connection to the source.

So why does the a'dam work on them at this point?  What's the difference between a sul'dam who is a long way from channeling and close to channeling in terms of how the a'dam works?  

[Suttree]

 

 

Rhienne, on 23 Jun 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

I'm not that clear on the exact differences between learners and sparkers, but don't many of the sul'dam bring themselves to the point of channeling whether they want to or not by long experience with the a'dam? I.e. many of the sul'dam essentially move from the 'potential channelers' camp to 'definite channelers' camp?

That's not how it works. Sul'dam get closer and closer with long use but need to consciously "step over the line" to actively channel. Until they do they can't be severed, don't slow etc. as there needs to be an active connection to the source.

So why does the a'dam work on them at this point?  What's the difference between a sul'dam who is a long way from channeling and close to channeling in terms of how the a'dam works?  

 

 

 

Interview: Sep 3rd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Verbatim)

Question

Since sul'dam have abilities normally associated with channelers only, do they also slow?

Robert Jordan

No, not unless they actually begin to channel. Slowing is a function of actually channeling. If you have the ability to learn, and you never learn to channel, you are not going to slow, you will age at a normal fashion. Sul'dam are women who can learn and as they develop the affinity, as they have been doing this for a little while, they begin to slide toward the ability to channel, but they never step over. I believe I have someone say that one of these women felt almost as if she should be able to channel, but not quite. They are getting closer and closer to the brink but they will never step over without conscious effort.

 

 

 

When they get close enough they can see the flows:

 

For sul'dam who have been sul'dam for a time, some begin to be able to see what might be called a ghostly image of the flows. Others convince themselves that this is, of course, only imagination and manage to give themselves a block.

 

 

Eventually the a'dam works on them, but they still have to choose to channel.

 

 

Interview: Sep 2nd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Paraphrased)

Isabel

Then I couldn't hear any other questions and I went back in line. I could only ask him one question. It's a discussion we had on Theoryland a while ago. Can the a'dam hold every sul'dam?

(He managed to get my question after a few times repeating it. I'll leave that out). Frenzy, you were right. (I hope I remember your stand on this issue correctly.)

Robert Jordan

The a'dam can only hold sul'dam who have been sul'dam for a long time and so wearing the bracelet for a long time. Four months for example isn't enough. He said the circle helped them get to the point that's described in the book, as being on the brink of being able to channel, one foot stepped over or something. (Quotemasters, please find that quote for me.)

[Rhienne]

That in itself surely has to be sufficient to cause a major shake-up of Seanchan society - if they have absolute faith in the a'dam as picking out channelers, then they would have to accept that experienced sul'dam need to be leashed.  Either that, or they have to accept a major flaw in the a'dam, in that it doesn't actually distinguish between learners and sparkers.

[Suttree]

The Seanchan don't know that is the case up until this point. Again it would have been interesting to see it explored in the Outriggers, though there is the whole conscious choice/active connection piece as well.

[Agitel]

That in itself surely has to be sufficient to cause a major shake-up of Seanchan society - if they have absolute faith in the a'dam as picking out channelers, then they would have to accept that experienced sul'dam need to be leashed.  Either that, or they have to accept a major flaw in the a'dam, in that it doesn't actually distinguish between learners and sparkers.

 

Experienced sul'dam technically still have a choice. A sparker will always embrace the source as they mature, intentionally or not, and it may or may not kill them. A learner has to be taught to sense and reach for it and actually try. An experienced sul'dam basically learns through the damane how to sense the source, but they're never biologically forced to touch it. A learner DOES get a choice about whether to ever make that first attempt. A sparker inevitably will channel, as Rand did in EotW, and as Nynaeve described she did, and as Moiraine explained would happen to Egwene without guidance.

 

I'm not trying to justify the Seanchan practice of slavery (which also extends to non-channelers, though that's less discussed), but there is a real distinction that Tuon is using, even if it's a very nuanced one that many won't find satisfactory.

[Mr Ares]

I'm not that clear on the exact differences between learners and sparkers, but don't many of the sul'dam bring themselves to the point of channeling whether they want to or not by long experience with the a'dam?  I.e. many of the sul'dam essentially move from the 'potential channelers' camp to 'definite channelers' camp?  Surely Tuon can't argue against that?  Even that would be a fairly large shake-up of Seanchan culture - many sul'dam becoming damane, the knowledge that anyone who became sul'dam would eventually have to become a damane.

Given that sul'am are already significantly more common than damane, Seanchan culture could certainly adapt - retire sul'dam after a few years, or just restrict the amount of time they can be "complete" for.

 

 

Before the arrival of Hawking's armies, Seanchan was ruled by a bunch of warring nations dominated by channelers. The view Hawking had of Aes Sedai was that they used their power to justify meddling in and controlling other nations and just taking advantage of the general threat of having that power to intimidate others. I'm not agreeing with the Seanchan, but their rationale is rooted in some truths. That doesn't mean their solution is better.

 

Also, I don't think the Seanchan are being made sympathetic. I never got that impression. Just because they aren't evil in all respects or are presented in a gray fashion doesn't mean we're supposed to agree with them. Many nations around the world practiced slavery, often very brutal kinds, and engaged in expansionary and colonial policies. But it's not like all of those nations were just pure evil up until those horrendous practices were abolished.

 

And do we need a new topic every few days from you ranting about the Seanchan? This is a discussion forum, and all of these topics have some merit on their own, but these really just boil down to the same thing when they're all "I hate Seanchan" rants from the same poster in a short span of time about basically the same broad theme.

Although I think the term "grey" is a little bit misplaced. Greyness implies moral parity between two sides and factions or that there isn't a clear right or wrong way of doing things. I just don't see that with them. Plus I dislike how in a lot of books there seems to be this belief that if you show somebody as having a few redeeming points and having human motivations then this automatically disqualifies them from being possibly evil. If anything that humanity just makes them more evil for doing what they do because unlike a darkspawn which is inherently evil and cannot help itself they have choice n reason and should know better.

 

Grey does not imply moral parity, it implies something that exists between two extremes - black and white. Even the best people have flaws, and so are a light shade of grey rather than pure white, and even the most monstrous have virtues, making them just a darker shade. Shades of grey only make sense in the context of right and wrong, with some things being more right than others (so things are grey based on their relation to a given moral standard, and whether or not that standard is relative or absolute is unimportant). Something which has no choice has no capacity for evil, and so it is only people who have decided to break bad who are truly evil. But it should be noted that the characters in the series are not a part of our society with its moral values - an understanding that slavery is wrong is not a universal human truth, it is an accepted truth of today's culture. Therefore, while the Seanchan are evil by our standards, they are not according to their own. Unless there is some sort of universal morality, then right and wrong can be very subjective things (and even if there is a universal morality, how can we be sure that we correctly understand what it is, given that our views are a minority throughout human history?).

[False Dragon1991]

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[Suttree]

Shouldn't this be in your WT attack thread?

[False Dragon1991]

Shouldn't this be in your WT attack thread?

 

Ugh...