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RL issues and mafia


michellem

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Posted

Well I had a game where I was super out of it; I get these emotional meltdowns every now and then because of various reasons; it's not pretty. Normally I'm good at staying away from the computer, but I felt like I had to post, and I made a complete mess. The main problem is that the day after I rarely remember anything. So I did some rather weird things and got a lot of flak for it. I was town, but I should've known better and stayed away, made a big distraction.

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Posted

The best thing to do is to consider all ramifications of announcing and ailment before doing so and decide whether its worth it.  It's a personal choice.  At least you have knowledge that it can be met with skeptical eyes. 

Posted

Or people could just stop making a big deal out of RL issues and scumhunt better instead of looking for excuses for why it's not their fault when they do it poorly.

  • Moderator
Posted
  On 6/17/2013 at 8:17 PM, WWWwombat said:

Or people could just stop making a big deal out of RL issues and scumhunt better instead of looking for excuses for why it's not their fault when they do it poorly.

 

This is BS, and you know it.  Get off the soapbox.  We've all had people dead to rights, and backed off due to RL drama being hinted at.  Nobody wants to be that insensitive jackass, so we give them space, and they evade a lynch.  If it was all real, then who cares - it is a game, and health (physical or mental) comes first.  But when it was a lie to escape that very lynch, that's just not cool.

Posted

Imo, anything can and should be used in a mafia game.

 

I have happily claimed to be going out of town for a day or two so that I could lay low and let something blow over as mafia.  I would do it as town too, though such a thing takes the inherent risk of getting you lynched if you're not cautious.  It is a bit of a sloppy play, but if it is on thread it is game.

 

Likewise, people shouldn't trust it.  Does this mean that someone may be unfairly lynched or attacked when they are gone?  Yes.  But it also means that people have penalties for claiming things to that nature, and that the person was playing in such a way that they drew that attention in the first place and didn't fix it.  

 

In essence, it is all part of how to play mafia.

  • Moderator
Posted
  On 6/17/2013 at 8:24 PM, Darthe said:

Imo, anything can and should be used in a mafia game.

 

I have happily claimed to be going out of town for a day or two so that I could lay low and let something blow over as mafia.  I would do it as town too, though such a thing takes the inherent risk of getting you lynched if you're not cautious.  It is a bit of a sloppy play, but if it is on thread it is game.

 

Likewise, people shouldn't trust it.  Does this mean that someone may be unfairly lynched or attacked when they are gone?  Yes.  But it also means that people have penalties for claiming things to that nature, and that the person was playing in such a way that they drew that attention in the first place and didn't fix it.  

 

In essence, it is all part of how to play mafia.

 

This is the different between the group of people I learned to play mafia with, and the group you obviously learned with.

 

To me, this is not cool.  This just says to me that you weren't able to deflect the heat with in-game discussion and posting, and had to rely on an external reason that has nothing to do with the game.  Some people will give you a break as you "aren't there to defend yourself".  But you lied about that because you didn't think you'd be able to defend yourself.

 

Look at it this way - if you can't do it during a LIVE game of mafia, you shouldn't be doing it on a forum-based game.

 

 

Do others share Darthe's view on the play he made?

Posted
  On 6/17/2013 at 8:21 PM, Verbal32 said:

 

  On 6/17/2013 at 8:17 PM, WWWwombat said:

 

Or people could just stop making a big deal out of RL issues and scumhunt better instead of looking for excuses for why it's not their fault when they do it poorly.

This is BS, and you know it. Get off the soapbox. We've all had people dead to rights, and backed off due to RL drama being hinted at. Nobody wants to be that insensitive jackass, so we give them space, and they evade a lynch. If it was all real, then who cares - it is a game, and health (physical or mental) comes first. But when it was a lie to escape that very lynch, that's just not cool.

Oh. I thought Wombat was saying that we shouldn't use crappy reasons like thinking someone is pretending as a reason for voting them. Or finding it difficult to figure stuff out and saying is cos we ill.

 

And we should actually be trying harder to find the Mafia by using other more relevant stuff in the game.

 

But maybe I was mistaken

 

I just immediately thought I was being bullocked for pushing Lynches on loads of Town when I was sky high fevered that time lol

 

Cos yeah - awful play. Just awful.

Posted
  On 6/17/2013 at 6:55 PM, Ithillian said:

I think this is tied to the inactivity Thread. If people didn't feel so pressured into posting x amount times per day - they would just be able to step away when they were feeling a bit ill/rubbish/sad/anxious - but if you do that and don't post then you end up getting ah haaa! Mafia non posty person! Lynch them.

 

So you feel like you have to justify absences - when really you might have already made a decent contribution to the game already this phase and shouldn't have to tell the world that x y and z is really messing with your life right now.

 

I agree with Ithi. I have recently made a promise to myself to just step away from a game for an x amount of time when I'm feeling depressed or something else is going on that could affect my play in an unfavorable kind of way, and not even give an explanation other than that I was away from the game for a while. Even though I sometimes have RL issues I still think I'm active enough for the other players to get a feel for my play and if they think otherwise then they are free to lynch me if they can. I don't care anymore.

 

I know that personally my reads will get influenced when people say that RL got in their way because I will always take them serious, having said that I haven't seen anyone lie about RL on DM before so I don't really see the problem. And if someone by any chance will lie about having serious RL issues and use that to get an advantage in game then you know you can't trust them in game the next time something similar comes up. I think this can really ruin the enjoyment for a lot of people though, and I hope nobody would use such tactics in the first place.

 

 

 

 

  On 6/17/2013 at 7:29 PM, WWWwombat said:

Has anyone actually tried to excuse blatant scumminess with RL? The closest I've seen is people getting emotional and irritable due to RL. And anyone who thinks emotionality and irritability are universal scumtells needs to adjust his or her scumdar imo. Plenty of people get super emotional when town. Some people even get more emotional as town than as mafia.

 

I always get more emotional as town than as mafia, because I feel like I'm on my own and need to figure out who's mafia etc. and I tend to get easily paranoid. In contrast when I'm mafia I feel more calm and assured because I have more info and a team to fall back on in case I screw up.

Posted
  On 6/17/2013 at 8:21 PM, Verbal32 said:

 

  On 6/17/2013 at 8:17 PM, WWWwombat said:

 

Or people could just stop making a big deal out of RL issues and scumhunt better instead of looking for excuses for why it's not their fault when they do it poorly.

This is BS, and you know it. Get off the soapbox. We've all had people dead to rights, and backed off due to RL drama being hinted at. Nobody wants to be that insensitive jackass, so we give them space, and they evade a lynch. If it was all real, then who cares - it is a game, and health (physical or mental) comes first. But when it was a lie to escape that very lynch, that's just not cool.

Hasn't happened to me. If someone's having a tough time IRL, I express sympathy, but that doesn't stop me from booting them off the island in an internet forum game if I was gonna do it anyways.

Posted

it's sketchy..but it's the same as lurking.

 

I know a specific player who had faked anger breakdowns as well as have had real breakdowns and asked to be replaced in both instances.  The player was scum in both case. 

 

What is your opinion of that?

 

Also..knowing this, how should I approach future events like this?

 

Again..its my opinion that if you are going to bring it to the game, have an understanding that it can be used against or for you..but it is now part of the game.

Posted
  On 6/17/2013 at 8:29 PM, Verbal32 said:

 

  On 6/17/2013 at 8:24 PM, Darthe said:

Imo, anything can and should be used in a mafia game.

 

I have happily claimed to be going out of town for a day or two so that I could lay low and let something blow over as mafia.  I would do it as town too, though such a thing takes the inherent risk of getting you lynched if you're not cautious.  It is a bit of a sloppy play, but if it is on thread it is game.

 

Likewise, people shouldn't trust it.  Does this mean that someone may be unfairly lynched or attacked when they are gone?  Yes.  But it also means that people have penalties for claiming things to that nature, and that the person was playing in such a way that they drew that attention in the first place and didn't fix it.  

 

In essence, it is all part of how to play mafia.

 

This is the different between the group of people I learned to play mafia with, and the group you obviously learned with.

 

To me, this is not cool.  This just says to me that you weren't able to deflect the heat with in-game discussion and posting, and had to rely on an external reason that has nothing to do with the game.  Some people will give you a break as you "aren't there to defend yourself".  But you lied about that because you didn't think you'd be able to defend yourself.

 

Look at it this way - if you can't do it during a LIVE game of mafia, you shouldn't be doing it on a forum-based game.

 

 

Do others share Darthe's view on the play he made?

 

 

Nope. I agree with you and I also don't find it cool that Darthe lied about doing that, but claiming to be going out of town for a few days is different than claiming to be sick (either mentally or physically) imo.

Posted
  On 6/17/2013 at 8:32 PM, Ithillian said:

 

  On 6/17/2013 at 8:21 PM, Verbal32 said:

 

  On 6/17/2013 at 8:17 PM, WWWwombat said:

 

Or people could just stop making a big deal out of RL issues and scumhunt better instead of looking for excuses for why it's not their fault when they do it poorly.

This is BS, and you know it. Get off the soapbox. We've all had people dead to rights, and backed off due to RL drama being hinted at. Nobody wants to be that insensitive jackass, so we give them space, and they evade a lynch. If it was all real, then who cares - it is a game, and health (physical or mental) comes first. But when it was a lie to escape that very lynch, that's just not cool.
Oh. I thought Wombat was saying that we shouldn't use crappy reasons like thinking someone is pretending as a reason for voting them. Or finding it difficult to figure stuff out and saying is cos we ill.

 

And we should actually be trying harder to find the Mafia by using other more relevant stuff in the game.

 

But maybe I was mistaken

 

I just immediately thought I was being bullocked for pushing Lynches on loads of Town when I was sky high fevered that time lol

 

Cos yeah - awful play. Just awful.

Yeah that's kinda what I was saying. Basically, I don't think RL should be germane to gameplay. I think it's stupid to automatically distrust someone who claims RL issues, but I think it's even more stupid to mentally clear someone who has RL issues and then flip out if they are mafia. It's a form of moral hazard imo.

 

If the RL-afflicted is town, I was right to clear him/her but if he or she is mafia, they're a horrible person for mentioning their real life and it's not my fault that I was lazy and backed off as soon as RL was mentioned rather than making a gameplay based read.

 

People have RL problems when they are mafia. Being mafia doesn't take all of your RL problems away. And some of the mafia who have RL problems will mention them. And some people inevitably get pissed about that EVEN IF THE RL ISSUE WAS TOTALLY LEGIT. And those people who get pissed are failing to take respinsibility for their own play.

Posted

And lying about RL to stall is sleazy. If you want to intentionally lurk, just lurk without an excuse and take your lumps if you get called on it.

  • Moderator
Posted
  On 6/17/2013 at 8:34 PM, peacesells said:

it's sketchy..but it's the same as lurking.

 

I know a specific player who had faked anger breakdowns as well as have had real breakdowns and asked to be replaced in both instances.  The player was scum in both case. 

 

What is your opinion of that?

 

Also..knowing this, how should I approach future events like this?

 

Again..its my opinion that if you are going to bring it to the game, have an understanding that it can be used against or for you..but it is now part of the game.

 

Here is where I make the distinction - if you are faking an emo meltdown or raging or threatening to quit, yadda yadda, that's fine.  Play on.  That is part of the game.

 

But when you use RL to relieve pressure on you because you won't be there to defend yourself (going out of town, sick, hurt, etc) when you aren't, that is crap.  Total crap.

  • Moderator
Posted
  On 6/17/2013 at 8:55 PM, WWWwombat said:

And lying about RL to stall is sleazy. If you want to intentionally lurk, just lurk without an excuse and take your lumps if you get called on it.

 

Exactly my point.  Rage, emo, whatever - fine.  Lying about RL to stall or get out of defending with game play - that is just bad play.  Period.

Posted
  On 6/17/2013 at 8:29 PM, Verbal32 said:

 

  On 6/17/2013 at 8:24 PM, Darthe said:

Imo, anything can and should be used in a mafia game.

 

I have happily claimed to be going out of town for a day or two so that I could lay low and let something blow over as mafia.  I would do it as town too, though such a thing takes the inherent risk of getting you lynched if you're not cautious.  It is a bit of a sloppy play, but if it is on thread it is game.

 

Likewise, people shouldn't trust it.  Does this mean that someone may be unfairly lynched or attacked when they are gone?  Yes.  But it also means that people have penalties for claiming things to that nature, and that the person was playing in such a way that they drew that attention in the first place and didn't fix it.  

 

In essence, it is all part of how to play mafia.

 

This is the different between the group of people I learned to play mafia with, and the group you obviously learned with.

 

To me, this is not cool.  This just says to me that you weren't able to deflect the heat with in-game discussion and posting, and had to rely on an external reason that has nothing to do with the game.  Some people will give you a break as you "aren't there to defend yourself".  But you lied about that because you didn't think you'd be able to defend yourself.

 

Look at it this way - if you can't do it during a LIVE game of mafia, you shouldn't be doing it on a forum-based game.

 

 

Do others share Darthe's view on the play he made?

 

Technically yes. I believe almost anything should be valid gameplay in mafia.

That said though I also think lying about RL is and should remain a big taboo. 

If you get caught or admit to it (protip Darthe, don't do it again) then I believe people have the right to be angry and basically shame you for abusing the fact that we are on a forum and can't verify these kind of things 99% of the time. Like you said it's not something that would even work in a live game.

  • Moderator
Posted
  On 6/17/2013 at 9:08 PM, Nolder said:

 

  On 6/17/2013 at 8:29 PM, Verbal32 said:

 

  On 6/17/2013 at 8:24 PM, Darthe said:

Imo, anything can and should be used in a mafia game.

 

I have happily claimed to be going out of town for a day or two so that I could lay low and let something blow over as mafia.  I would do it as town too, though such a thing takes the inherent risk of getting you lynched if you're not cautious.  It is a bit of a sloppy play, but if it is on thread it is game.

 

Likewise, people shouldn't trust it.  Does this mean that someone may be unfairly lynched or attacked when they are gone?  Yes.  But it also means that people have penalties for claiming things to that nature, and that the person was playing in such a way that they drew that attention in the first place and didn't fix it.  

 

In essence, it is all part of how to play mafia.

 

This is the different between the group of people I learned to play mafia with, and the group you obviously learned with.

 

To me, this is not cool.  This just says to me that you weren't able to deflect the heat with in-game discussion and posting, and had to rely on an external reason that has nothing to do with the game.  Some people will give you a break as you "aren't there to defend yourself".  But you lied about that because you didn't think you'd be able to defend yourself.

 

Look at it this way - if you can't do it during a LIVE game of mafia, you shouldn't be doing it on a forum-based game.

 

 

Do others share Darthe's view on the play he made?

 

Technically yes. I believe almost anything should be valid gameplay in mafia.

That said though I also think lying about RL is and should remain a big taboo. 

If you get caught or admit to it (protip Darthe, don't do it again) then I believe people have the right to be angry and basically shame you for abusing the fact that we are on a forum and can't verify these kind of things 99% of the time. Like you said it's not something that would even work in a live game.

 

 

You just contradicted yourself, lol.  You share his view, and then say lying about RL is taboo.  You can't have it both ways.  I think I know you pretty well as a mafia player by now, and I'd say your 2nd statement reflects the way you feel, and the 1st was simply you being contrary (as you like to be sometimes) ;-)

 

 

If you can't do it in a live game, you can't do it in a forum game.

 

That should be the motto around here.

Posted

Hm. The thing is, we can fake emotions, logic, motivations, thoughts, we can choose when to post/not post, we can choose to be active/inactive, we can choose to lie, mislead, and badger... We consider those to be part of the game. I'm not sure why we'd accept the honor system with "RL issues" big or small. Granted, the bigger the stated issue the more likely I am to believe it, but that's a choice on my part; Not an actual representation of the truth behind the claim. I'm also not sure why it couldn't be used in an attempt to legitimize less frequent posting. Here's the thing-If you are having a RL issue that restricts your posting, then your posts need to be of an even higher quality than usual imo. You need to address the issues, respond to queries, offer info/lies, and PARTICIPATE. If your problem is so large/all-encompassing that you can't produce high quality posts, then you need to be replaced. That goes for lurkers too. If you are going to lurk and post infrequently, then the posts you DO make need to have some meat to them. If you can't contribute meaningfully to your team, get yourself replaced. If you claim to have RL issues, and then all you post is crap on the rare occasions that you do post, then I'm not going to buy it. I'm going to think that A) you are lying about the issue or B) you are using the issue as an excuse to avoid having to own up to the game--likely because you are scum.

 

I started mafia on MJ, and back in the day, people were active. Active enough that even the inactive were more active than many of the "active" players here on DM. If someone claimed RL issues back then, their activity was still pretty high so the RL issue wasn't much of a problem. (I don't even recall people claiming RL issues that often that hadn't been mentioned before the game even started.)

 

Honestly, I occasionally lie about reasons for not posting. I'd rather say "I was busy" or "I wasn't feeling well" than say "I really wanted to strangle this player so I took a break for a day." :tongue: Of course (generally speaking) if I want to strangle someone, I probably have gotten a headache from playing mafia, so it's patently not a lie. Even so, it's not entirely truthful--I'm using an excuse to avoid the game. People may choose to be nice people and not pressure those who claim RL issues, but that's not really in the spirit of mafia either. Mafia is about lying, not letting people off the hook soley due to a claimed RL issue (especially if they aren't contributing in a meaningful way). I'd like to throw in a disclaimer that I never claim to have a serious RL problem unless I actually do, and I always notify the mod if possible in such a case. (I lose internet sometimes. That's been the biggest problem for me. TimeWarner is a crap company, I'm just say'n. Crap happens.)

 

To sum up, I don't mind people lying about their RL issues. Sure, I think that false-claiming cancer makes you an arse, but that's beside the point of mafia. If you claim a RL issue (false or otherwise) I still expect you to play the game until you are being replaced. And I expect you to actually make posts of the best quality that you can achieve within the limits you have. Not contributing to the game is scummy, and avoiding the game for days at a time is not playing. In either case, you should ask to be replaced, RL issue or no. If you lie about a RL issue to avoid the game for extended (or regular) periods--why the heck are you playing?

 

I'm fine with lying--if your posts are scummy then they're scummy with/without a RL issue. If your posts are meaningless drivel after you've claimed a RL issue, that's scummy too. In the end, the RL issue doesn't mean anything, it's your contributions to the game that determine the scumminess. People should lynch on their percieved scumminess/ability to get information, and worry less about the claimed RL issues.

 

REAL RL issues should always be noted to the Mod. Always. You should NOT lie to the mod (EVER) so he/she can vouche for you if necessary, or explain a prolonged absence should the need arise. The other players can then weigh your play for or against you as they see fit.

  • Club Leader
Posted
  On 6/17/2013 at 8:29 PM, Verbal32 said:

 

  On 6/17/2013 at 8:24 PM, Darthe said:

Imo, anything can and should be used in a mafia game.

 

I have happily claimed to be going out of town for a day or two so that I could lay low and let something blow over as mafia.  I would do it as town too, though such a thing takes the inherent risk of getting you lynched if you're not cautious.  It is a bit of a sloppy play, but if it is on thread it is game.

 

Likewise, people shouldn't trust it.  Does this mean that someone may be unfairly lynched or attacked when they are gone?  Yes.  But it also means that people have penalties for claiming things to that nature, and that the person was playing in such a way that they drew that attention in the first place and didn't fix it.  

 

In essence, it is all part of how to play mafia.

 

This is the different between the group of people I learned to play mafia with, and the group you obviously learned with.

 

To me, this is not cool.  This just says to me that you weren't able to deflect the heat with in-game discussion and posting, and had to rely on an external reason that has nothing to do with the game.  Some people will give you a break as you "aren't there to defend yourself".  But you lied about that because you didn't think you'd be able to defend yourself.

 

Look at it this way - if you can't do it during a LIVE game of mafia, you shouldn't be doing it on a forum-based game.

 

 

Do others share Darthe's view on the play he made?

 

 

I guess I'm old school, but I don't think that's cool, either.

  • Club Leader
Posted
  On 6/17/2013 at 9:15 PM, Misheru Sedai said:

I can't believe you've done that Darthe. I actually lost quite a bit of respect for you as a player now.

 

This. I think that good sportsmanship is important in any game, and this kind of thing is the main reason I quit playing here a while ago. 

Posted
  On 6/17/2013 at 9:15 PM, WWWwombat said:

If it keeps you from posting unfunny image macros I suppose I could agree to it :P

I can't support this proposition. Especially at Night.

Posted
  On 6/17/2013 at 9:11 PM, Verbal32 said:

You just contradicted yourself, lol.  You share his view, and then say lying about RL is taboo.  You can't have it both ways.  I think I know you pretty well as a mafia player by now, and I'd say your 2nd statement reflects the way you feel, and the 1st was simply you being contrary (as you like to be sometimes) ;-)

 

 

If you can't do it in a live game, you can't do it in a forum game.

 

That should be the motto around here.

 

Let me put it this way and maybe it'll make more sense.

I believe people should be able to say or do almost anything in a mafia game to win. That's why most of the time mods will include a rule that you can't screenshot your role PM. It may seem obvious but there are people that can and will find loopholes and...I just don't think that should be discouraged. The entire game is built around outsmarting and manipulating people. Anything said in the game is gameplay. Period.

 

Aside from that I personally feel that manipulating people in that way specifically is low. Not sportsmanlike if you will.

Think of it as taking the knee in football. It may be a good move strategically but no one really wants to see that they want to see people playing the game.

Call me conflicted if you want, I guess that describes how I feel pretty accurately. I definitely believe not stifling gameplay trumps whether or not I feel like a certain tactic is unsportsmanlike though.

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