Am I the only one who is pissed over the anticlimactic end to Fain's story?

[Mr Ares]

How can Fain be part of Shaisam without being alive? Shaisam incorporated a "dead" entity into itself? Not sure this is at all plausible.

I don't see what's implausible or confusing about the idea. Consider Frankenstein's monster, a living being made from parts taken from dead bodies - thus all the people who "contributed" are dead, but the creature itself is alive (IT'S ALIVE!!!). How can Lews Therin be a part of Rand despite being dead? Whether you're a realist or constructionist, LTT's memories are present in Rand, and thus we have a dead man present in part within a living one. The living one is also insane, thus there is distinct similarity between the two situations. We also see Rand fail to respond to his own name but respond to "Lews Therin" in FoH, thus the living entity confusing its identity with that of the dead one is also something we have seen in the series.

 

 

 

Shaisam incorporated a "dead" entity into itself? Not sure this is at all plausible.

 

What would you call Mordeth?

 

He was an entity bound to SL. His original physical body was gone but the entity itself could hardly be called "dead".

Well, that depends entirely on how you define "dead".

 

One more time, here's his death scene.

 

aMol-47

Cauthon rammed the dagger right between the ribs, in Shaisam's heart. Tied to this pitiful mortal form, Mordeth screamed. Padan Fain howled, and felt his flesh melting from his bones. The mists trembled, began to swirl and shake. Together they died.

 

Like what part of Mordeth screaming and Padan Fain howling is not understood here?

Shaisam is, by its own admission, insane.

[Finnssss22]

I don't see what's implausible or confusing about the idea. Consider Frankenstein's monster, a living being made from parts taken from dead bodies - thus all the people who "contributed" are dead, but the creature itself is alive (IT'S ALIVE!!!). How can Lews Therin be a part of Rand despite being dead? Whether you're a realist or constructionist, LTT's memories are present in Rand, and thus we have a dead man present in part within a living one. The living one is also insane, thus there is distinct similarity between the two situations. We also see Rand fail to respond to his own name but respond to "Lews Therin" in FoH, thus the living entity confusing its identity with that of the dead one is also something we have seen in the series.

Except with Frankenstein's monster, the parts were dead to begin with. The parts that went into making Shaisam were and still are alive when he died.

 

I don't know why this is continuing, you already admitted that Fain was still a part of the entity Shaisam and therefore not dead. 

 

Well, that depends entirely on how you define "dead".

Indeed. I guess it depends if we go by the Dance Club version of dead or what everyone else considers dead heh.

 

 

Shaisam is, by its own admission, insane.

And?

[Mr Ares]

 

I don't see what's implausible or confusing about the idea. Consider Frankenstein's monster, a living being made from parts taken from dead bodies - thus all the people who "contributed" are dead, but the creature itself is alive (IT'S ALIVE!!!). How can Lews Therin be a part of Rand despite being dead? Whether you're a realist or constructionist, LTT's memories are present in Rand, and thus we have a dead man present in part within a living one. The living one is also insane, thus there is distinct similarity between the two situations. We also see Rand fail to respond to his own name but respond to "Lews Therin" in FoH, thus the living entity confusing its identity with that of the dead one is also something we have seen in the series.

Except with Frankenstein's monster, the parts were dead to begin with. The parts that went into making Shaisam were and still are alive when he died.

 

I don't know why this is continuing, you already admitted that Fain was still a part of the entity Shaisam and therefore not dead.

 

Doesn't follow. As already shown, it's possible to be a non-living part of something, therefore being a part of Shaisam doesn't come close to conceding he was a living part. The only evidence you've presented is a highly ambiguous dying moment.

 

Well, that depends entirely on how you define "dead".

Indeed. I guess it depends if we go by the Dance Club version of dead or what everyone else considers dead heh.

 

Please don't pretend you're using universally accepted definitions and I'm not. It won't fool anyone. Mordeth was a disembodied spirit - a ghost, you might say. Thus, dead could be used to describe him. Or undead, or unalive.

 

 

Shaisam is, by its own admission, insane.

And?

And so how do you know you can trust his POV? Especially when Fain is otherwise absent - the acknowledgement of Fain as anything other than the former inhabitant of the body in the centre of Shaisam's is aberrant, and only in his dying moments. To suggest that he lost control of his madness at the end and thought of himself as Fain and Mordeth is as supported by the text (if not more so) as Fain was still alive.

[Finnssss22]

Doesn't follow. As already shown, it's possible to be a non-living part of something, therefore being a part of Shaisam doesn't come close to conceding he was a living part. The only evidence you've presented is a highly ambiguous dying moment.

As opposed to what you've presented? Which is nothing more than your opinion with nothing to back it back from the books. Where's your quotes and lines from the books to back up your opinion exactly?

 

Please don't pretend you're using universally accepted definitions and I'm not. It won't fool anyone. Mordeth was a disembodied spirit - a ghost, you might say. Thus, dead could be used to describe him. Or undead, or unalive.

 

True, Mordeth's physical body was dead but his essence did live on in Mashadar.

Fain however, was always alive and the only part of the being known as Shaisam that, by your definition, does live.

 

 

And so how do you know you can trust his POV? Especially when Fain is otherwise absent - the acknowledgement of Fain as anything other than the former inhabitant of the body in the centre of Shaisam's is aberrant, and only in his dying moments. To suggest that he lost control of his madness at the end and thought of himself as Fain and Mordeth is as supported by the text (if not more so) as Fain was still alive.

You mean the same PoV's that you use to base your Fain is dead theory on??? Hahahaha!!!

The very same PoV's that the supposed cliffhanger is based on?

The very same PoV's that are being used to attempt to set-up Fain's end as anti-climatic?

 

Congratulations! You are now arguing exactly what I was 7 pages ago which you were arguing against at the time Hahahaha!

Your circling, or as I've come to call it, your dance card is now complete ;)

[Mr Ares]

 

Doesn't follow. As already shown, it's possible to be a non-living part of something, therefore being a part of Shaisam doesn't come close to conceding he was a living part. The only evidence you've presented is a highly ambiguous dying moment.

As opposed to what you've presented? Which is nothing more than your opinion with nothing to back it back from the books. Where's your quotes and lines from the books to back up your opinion exactly?

 

Provided already, if you'd like to check back.

 

Please don't pretend you're using universally accepted definitions and I'm not. It won't fool anyone. Mordeth was a disembodied spirit - a ghost, you might say. Thus, dead could be used to describe him. Or undead, or unalive.

 

True, Mordeth's physical body was dead but his essence did live on in Mashadar.

Fain however, was always alive and the only part of the being known as Shaisam that, by your definition, does live.

 

Actually, both Fain and Mordeth are dead and replaced with a new entity called Shaisam - thus they are both dead according to the same definition. However, prior to that Mordeth was dead by one definition, but Fain wasn't. Now, words don't always have a single definition. The definition of "dead" that could be applied to Mordeth in EotW is different to the definition that could be applied to him in AMoL, but the definition applied in AMoL is the same as that applied to Fain in that book. I'm being consistent in my definitions.

 

 

And so how do you know you can trust his POV? Especially when Fain is otherwise absent - the acknowledgement of Fain as anything other than the former inhabitant of the body in the centre of Shaisam's is aberrant, and only in his dying moments. To suggest that he lost control of his madness at the end and thought of himself as Fain and Mordeth is as supported by the text (if not more so) as Fain was still alive.

You mean the same PoV's that you use to base your Fain is dead theory on??? Hahahaha!!!

The very same PoV's that the supposed cliffhanger is based on?

The very same PoV's that are being used to attempt to set-up Fain's end as anti-climatic?

 

Congratulations! You are now arguing exactly what I was 7 pages ago which you were arguing against at the time Hahahaha!

Your circling, or as I've come to call it, your dance card is now complete ;)

 

Except our theories remain different. I'm not using Shaisam's opinions to back up my own, I'm simply using the facts presented in his POV. For example, I'm taking the absence of any sign of Fain's personality as an indicator that he is no longer among the living, but that would be true even if Shaisam expressed an opinion either way, because Shaisam could believe he was alive and that opinion not be true.

[Sabio]

And there is why this will never be solved, you take the stuff when its presented Like Fain screaming to mean Shaisam is just insane and not that Fain is still in the being as Fain.  Others take it to mean what it say at face value that since Fain screamed it means Fain actually screamed so Fain still exists.  In TOM it starts off with the creature that had been Fain and the creature that had been mordeith.  So does that mean neither exists? Normally Mordeith would of taken over and Fain would be dead, but since he couldn't totally take over Fain now they share, in Shaisam's case both souls still exist, but also neither one exists.

[Finnssss22]

 

 

Doesn't follow. As already shown, it's possible to be a non-living part of something, therefore being a part of Shaisam doesn't come close to conceding he was a living part. The only evidence you've presented is a highly ambiguous dying moment.

As opposed to what you've presented? Which is nothing more than your opinion with nothing to back it back from the books. Where's your quotes and lines from the books to back up your opinion exactly?

 

Provided already, if you'd like to check back.

 

Please don't pretend you're using universally accepted definitions and I'm not. It won't fool anyone. Mordeth was a disembodied spirit - a ghost, you might say. Thus, dead could be used to describe him. Or undead, or unalive.

 

True, Mordeth's physical body was dead but his essence did live on in Mashadar.

Fain however, was always alive and the only part of the being known as Shaisam that, by your definition, does live.

 

Actually, both Fain and Mordeth are dead and replaced with a new entity called Shaisam - thus they are both dead according to the same definition. However, prior to that Mordeth was dead by one definition, but Fain wasn't. Now, words don't always have a single definition. The definition of "dead" that could be applied to Mordeth in EotW is different to the definition that could be applied to him in AMoL, but the definition applied in AMoL is the same as that applied to Fain in that book. I'm being consistent in my definitions.

 

 

And so how do you know you can trust his POV? Especially when Fain is otherwise absent - the acknowledgement of Fain as anything other than the former inhabitant of the body in the centre of Shaisam's is aberrant, and only in his dying moments. To suggest that he lost control of his madness at the end and thought of himself as Fain and Mordeth is as supported by the text (if not more so) as Fain was still alive.

You mean the same PoV's that you use to base your Fain is dead theory on??? Hahahaha!!!

The very same PoV's that the supposed cliffhanger is based on?

The very same PoV's that are being used to attempt to set-up Fain's end as anti-climatic?

 

Congratulations! You are now arguing exactly what I was 7 pages ago which you were arguing against at the time Hahahaha!

Your circling, or as I've come to call it, your dance card is now complete ;)

 

Except our theories remain different. I'm not using Shaisam's opinions to back up my own, I'm simply using the facts presented in his POV. For example, I'm taking the absence of any sign of Fain's personality as an indicator that he is no longer among the living, but that would be true even if Shaisam expressed an opinion either way, because Shaisam could believe he was alive and that opinion not be true.

 

Hey, whatever keeps your dance card full.

 

I'm done here, as you are obviously just arguing for the sake of arguing and have been for a few pages now.

[Removed]

 

Good day.

[Matt's Pink Lace]

Tried to read the thread but there was a lot of fighting, so if this is repeated my bad

 

I never really liked fain, i almost kinda expected him to be important to my own disappointment. 

 

he did a good job sewing chaos across Randland, that turned out to workout better for our heroes of course

 

He just turned into some sorta unexplainable monster with crazy super powers and strength and such. How he combined with Mordeth and things? all was just way to crazy for me.

 

I think he was kinda like the false dragons, but like false dark ones? An evil that would of been necessary if Rand decided to kill the dark one. Fain woulda been there to take his place gladly, and sew his chaos and paranoia across the pattern. But just like when rand announced his dragonness, and the false dragons fell, When rand chose to let the dark one live, Fain was no longer needed.

[damandred]

Tried to read the thread but there was a lot of fighting, so if this is repeated my bad

 

 

 

I think he was kinda like the false dragons, but like false dark ones? An evil that would of been necessary if Rand decided to kill the dark one. Fain woulda been there to take his place gladly, and sew his chaos and paranoia across the pattern. But just like when rand announced his dragonness, and the false dragons fell, When rand chose to let the dark one live, Fain was no longer needed.

That a instresting idea. I cant remember where, but i am sure i read somewhere that the pattern needed the DO. I doubt RJ or BS had that in mind ( you never no ), but its cool none the less. Much more origanal than pages of debate about what constitutes as dead.

[thehoovedone1]

 

Tried to read the thread but there was a lot of fighting, so if this is repeated my bad

 

 

 

I think he was kinda like the false dragons, but like false dark ones? An evil that would of been necessary if Rand decided to kill the dark one. Fain woulda been there to take his place gladly, and sew his chaos and paranoia across the pattern. But just like when rand announced his dragonness, and the false dragons fell, When rand chose to let the dark one live, Fain was no longer needed.

That a instresting idea. I cant remember where, but i am sure i read somewhere that the pattern needed the DO. I doubt RJ or BS had that in mind ( you never no ), but its cool none the less. Much more origanal than pages of debate about what constitutes as dead.

 

Seconded

[Sabio]

@Matt, Fain soul had been directly touched by the DO so when he encountered things like the black wind or Mordeth they were never able to totally consume him.  I think some of what happened to Fain would of happened to Mat had he been with the dagger longer and Mordeth consumed him.  The longer Mordeth was free the stronger he got.  Fain was still in the body because Mordeth couldn't entirely consume him.

[InfinLuminous]

It's clear that Fain did not die until the end of AMoL. The text of the novel makes it clear that Fain died when Mat plunged the dagger into him, NOT in any earlier book.

[LewisFriendly]

Disappointed here too.  I kinda always saw Fain as RJ's answer to Smiegel/Gollum.  Oh well.

[Sabio]

I consider Fain still alive at the end, because in some ways he was a merging of souls like Slayer.  With Slayer Luc and Isam seemed balanced sort of a split personality type thing where they are aware of each other.  With Fain I do believe though in the end all the separate idenities would of died off to become one, but the fact it remember it was Fain etc... shows the identities still live in the being. 

[Mr Ares]

I consider Fain still alive at the end, because in some ways he was a merging of souls like Slayer.  With Slayer Luc and Isam seemed balanced sort of a split personality type thing where they are aware of each other.  With Fain I do believe though in the end all the separate idenities would of died off to become one, but the fact it remember it was Fain etc... shows the identities still live in the being. 

Well, I disagree, but you do have an argument and you do make a valid point. The way I see it, Fain's presence in AMoL was an entirely passive part of Shaisam - Fain isn't affecting Shaisam's desires, his motivations, etc. He has Fain's memories, but that's it. Fain is a more inactive presence in Shaisam than LTT was in Rand, closer to Mat's memories. I still consider LTT to be dead, for all that a vestige of him continues to exist in Rand, which is why I see Shaisam/Fain as being no different.

[Guest Sebastián Erasmy Vergara]

I liked how he died. He was so amazingly powerful and deadly in the end, he could have decimated the armies and gotten lots of people killed. So many died in the Last Battle, getting more people killed just for the sake of giving Fain a decent amount of pages would have been disgusting. I liked how he was so strong, yet he died in such a miserable and pathetic way, defeated by someone who couldn't even channel. Just good old Mat, who whistled himself away from the scene. It was lovely. Fain didn't deserve more, he was disgusting, dying like a dog after becoming such a strong creature was poetic justice.

[Dom]

Personally I think in the absence of clear notes about what was supposed to happen with Fain, Brandon handled the end of his story line okay, if not great.

 

My theory is that Jordan had vague intentions to use Fain/Mordeth as a red herring.  Through the series, the major role of Shadar Logoth was revealed by the Cleansing:  This is an Evil that is equivalent to the Dark One's and the two of them can't co-exist in the same time/space, they would destroy one another.  We know Rand understood this from a mix of how his wounds behaved, what Herid Fel had found and answers he got from the Finns.

 

Another clue is that when Rand came out of SG, he commented to himself that "he has asked the wrong question".  It's a major, major theme of the series, and one that goes all the way back to its roots in RJ's mind, that Evil must exist for life to have any meaning, as with the existence of Evil comes the freedom to reject it and fight it.  Rand's "wrong question" to the Finns was obviously "How can I destroy the Dark One?".  From his confrontation, he had realized that only the existence of Shai'tan allows free will, otherwise Creation would be an universe of puppets. Shadar Logoth was also there to demonstrate that becoming as hard, as uncompromising as the Shadow was the path to destroy yourself and possibly the world. This was a path Rand was taking in the late series... seing Asha'man only as weapons, no longer humans, trying to make himself as hard and cold as cuendillar.. and around him the world died, spoiled and rot.. like Mashadar had brought anything alive in Aridhol.  More and more Rand could have made Mordeth's motto his own: "The Victory of the Light is All!" and wherever he walked his allies shivered, as those of Aridhol used to do when its hard, cruel and cold men arrived.

 

We virtually know (but from Q&A only) that Mordeth has asked questions in the same vein of the Finns. This created Mashadar, a virulent force capable of destroying Shai'tan, but that could just as well destroy Creation, and which did destroy its creator Mordeth.  

 

RJ first used this force in the Cleansing, establishing its capacity to destroy the Shadow. Poof!

 

I think its final purpose, and the return of Mashadar in the form of something like Shaisam, and why Fain continued to survive, is that all along Jordan meant to have Rand, at the time of his darkness, plan to kill rather than seal back the Dark One.  Had the last book not been divided in three, it's not before his epiphany around the 2/3 mark and just before the great confrontation began that Rand would have changed his mind.  Fain's growing powers were the device by which Jordan intended to convince us Rand had found the means by which to accomplish the deed (which Brandon left hanging.. probably because he couldn't see in RJ's notes how Rand could destroy Shai'tan.. but we can guess where it was: Brandon himself said in Mordeth's notes it's explained how he found a way to destroy the Shadow.. Brandon just didn't connect the dots...).  I think RJ had not set his mind on the details of how he'd interweave this red herring with the rest, nor did he knew how much of it he'd need - if at all - thus the absence of specific notes for AMOL proper.

 

But everything was already in place:  Moridin feared "the renegade" (he knew how much of a threat to both Rand and Shai'tan Fain was) and mentioned how much of the endgame depended on Isam finding him in time or not. RJ had established that Mordeth's goal was to destroy the Shadow, and he had worked up the back story of the origin of his powers. All he needed was a Fain/Mordeth POV as he took the direction of SG to reveal it all. Then he had the answers of the Finns to Rand available as the device by which ultra-dark Rand, nowas hard and obsessed and dangerous as Mordeth himself,  would reveal that he puzzled how he could destroy the DO.... and it would have been misguided and alarming... by planning to use Fain Rand could end up creating a worldwide Shadar Logoth that would destroy both Creation and Shai'tan.  

 

After the Epiphany, Rand would abandon this course, but Fain would have remained around, and now the reader would know the extent of the danger he represented, so close to the Pit of Doom, so close to having recreated Mashadar and to doom the world if he confronted Shai'tan directly while Rand was inside.  

 

This could all have been achieved with little more than what was actually in the books: the revelation of Mordeth's back story and full goals in Fain's first scene going to SG (this would incidentally make the upcoming encounter of Mat with the Finns at Ghenjei sound even more threatening), the revelation of Rand's answer tying SL and the way to destroy Shai'tan in one of dark-Rand POV in TGS.  As this was a red herring and Rand abandoned the plan, there would have been little need for more than what  Brandon did, ie: bring Shaisam to the Pit of Doom and have Mat, immune to its evil, destroy it.  

 

But the threat Fain/Mordeth represented at SG would have been much clearer, and I think as a result those scenes would have felt much more satisfying.  

[wotfan4472]

Great theory Dom. It is actually quite interesting. That is what I got as well, but could not articulate it the way you did. It fits perfectly well. I noticed Moridin's comments in WH. I was worried about Fain, because I wanted my Rand vs Shai'tan battle.